[quote]kamui wrote:
there is and always will be someone in charge.
it’s our collective responsibility to make sure it’s the right people
[/quote]
Interesting.
Popper says that the saving grace of democracy is not that it puts the right people in charge, because that is probably next to impossible, but to be able to get rid of them when they become unbearable without too much bloodshed.
Here’s how I look at it:
It takes a rich guy(s) to own a business to employ people, who in turn spend their money at other businesses (usually owned by the wealthy) who then can hire more people. They in turn spend their money at other businesses and the cycle repeats endlessly.
Now explain in detail exactly how NOT extending the Bush tax cuts to the very people who move the economy is going to help the economy.
How does government help the above equation? At best all government can do is take money from all of us and redistribute it to those who have not earned it. This isn’t even efficient as only about .25 on a dollar is actually obtained by those undeserving.
Have our liberal universities brain washed some of you so badly that you can’t figure this out? Even the democratic leaders in Washington know that this is nothing more than simple demagoguery. Class warfare perpetuated by the democrats in order to divide and conquer. It’s sick, pathetic and a horrible way to govern.
One more point to those who feel that the rich are not “deserving”. Tell me at what point does a hard working guy who has been successful, employed people, and helped the economy in the process become evil, or “undeserving” of a tax cut? The very tax cut that his neighbor who makes less than him, but depends on him for a job will get?
When I read some of these comments I just shake my head and wonder if the world has gone mad.
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
Yes, I think we should let the rich keep all of their money so that they can choose which charities to donahahahaha sorry can’t finish that sentence without dying of laughter.[/quote]
Tell that to Gates and Buffet.
I am sure that they would appreciate the joke.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
there is and always will be someone in charge.
it’s our collective responsibility to make sure it’s the right people
[/quote]
Interesting.
Popper says that the saving grace of democracy is not that it puts the right people in charge, because that is probably next to impossible, but to be able to get rid of them when they become unbearable without too much bloodshed.
[/quote]
yes.
except it should be about getting rid of bad practices and selecting good ones, not much about getting rid of people.
the ability to get rid of people is better than nothing. but it’s a very recent and as such very primitive tool.
democracy is still in its infancy. it’s still in beta test.
that’s why the main problem is not the size of the state (or the size of the corporations). It’s our current lack of efficient feedbacks and retroactive controls over the government and the markets.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
Yes, I think we should let the rich keep all of their money so that they can choose which charities to donahahahaha sorry can’t finish that sentence without dying of laughter.[/quote]
Tell that to Gates and Buffet.
I am sure that they would appreciate the joke.
[/quote]
Gates and Buffet have made the welfare state redundant have they? No.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Here’s how I look at it:
It takes a rich guy(s) to own a business to employ people, who in turn spend their money at other businesses (usually owned by the wealthy) who then can hire more people. They in turn spend their money at other businesses and the cycle repeats endlessly.
Now explain in detail exactly how NOT extending the Bush tax cuts to the very people who move the economy is going to help the economy.
How does government help the above equation? At best all government can do is take money from all of us and redistribute it to those who have not earned it. This isn’t even efficient as only about .25 on a dollar is actually obtained by those undeserving.
Have our liberal universities brain washed some of you so badly that you can’t figure this out? Even the democratic leaders in Washington know that this is nothing more than simple demagoguery. Class warfare perpetuated by the democrats in order to divide and conquer. It’s sick, pathetic and a horrible way to govern.
One more point to those who feel that the rich are not “deserving”. Tell me at what point does a hard working guy who has been successful, employed people, and helped the economy in the process become evil, or “undeserving” of a tax cut? The very tax cut that his neighbor who makes less than him, but depends on him for a job will get?
When I read some of these comments I just shake my head and wonder if the world has gone mad.[/quote]
Damn thank you ZEB. Alot of the “rich” tax payers out there are small business owners, like my father. On paper, hes worth well over 300 grand. Yet he brings home maybe 60-80 a year a best BEFORE taxes. Shut the hell up of you dont know what youre talking about.
[quote]kamui wrote:
there is and always will be someone in charge.
it’s our collective responsibility to make sure it’s the right people
[/quote]
Heh, good luck. A $13.8 trillion deficit kind of puts a damper on such an illusion.
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
Yes, I think we should let the rich keep all of their money so that they can choose which charities to donahahahaha sorry can’t finish that sentence without dying of laughter.[/quote]
Tell that to Gates and Buffet.
I am sure that they would appreciate the joke.
[/quote]
Gates and Buffet have made the welfare state redundant have they? No.[/quote]
You cannot make teh welfare state redunadant since it was superfluous from teh getgo.
After spending trillions of dollars where are we now?
Pretty much were we started.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
Yes, I think we should let the rich keep all of their money so that they can choose which charities to donahahahaha sorry can’t finish that sentence without dying of laughter.[/quote]
Tell that to Gates and Buffet.
I am sure that they would appreciate the joke.
[/quote]
Gates and Buffet have made the welfare state redundant have they? No.[/quote]
You cannot make teh welfare state redunadant since it was superfluous from teh getgo.
After spending trillions of dollars where are we now?
Pretty much were we started.
[/quote]
Well said. I can’t think of a worse guy to put in the White House. Exactly at the time when we really needed someone good.
Governments will always spend more than they earn. The trick is to step out of the path of destruction when it starts rolling.
The best way I know of to avoid the death spiral is to get your money as much as possible out of the system. This is traditionally done by buying stocks but that won’t work when the government becomes desperate (like now). Buying a different currency like Swiss Francs is a more radical alternative. Finally there are metals and other commodities that can’t be created by governments.
With gold at $1400/oz and silver at $29/oz, it seems that A LOT of people agree with me.
Yes, a Republican will get elected, cut taxes, and everything will go back to the good ole’ days.
And you say Dems are ‘hope-notized’
lol
[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
Yes, a Republican will get elected, cut taxes, and everything will go back to the good ole’ days.
And you say Dems are ‘hope-notized’
lol
[/quote]
The problem is Repubs cut taxes w/o cutting spending. Both parties are full of retards.
Repub’s act tough when it comes to Taxes and cutting spending but all that stuff leads to a LOWER QUALITY OF LIFE and people cannot nay will not accept that. Thats why nothing will really change and everybody hopes if just keep it as it is all will be okay. People want to have their cake and eat it.
The people that pay the most taxes should receive the tax break. How can those that pay no tax get an additional tax cut? How is it fair for someone like me to get the same tax cut as someone who pays 10 - 100x more in taxes.
Warren Buffet has a saying about dividends and whether or not a company should pay them. If the company can do more with the retained earnings than you can on your own, they should not pay dividends. If they can’t do more than you can, pay the dividends. Apply that to taxes. Government spending is non productive, wasteful, inefficient, and corrupt. Cut taxes.
I would think that it is owed to the highest tax payers that the rest of us get on our hands and knees and thank them. Let’s of course make the condition that the earnings were made honestly and legally.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
Yes, I think we should let the rich keep all of their money so that they can choose which charities to donahahahaha sorry can’t finish that sentence without dying of laughter.[/quote]
Tell that to Gates and Buffet.
I am sure that they would appreciate the joke.
[/quote]
Gates and Buffet have made the welfare state redundant have they? No.[/quote]
You cannot make teh welfare state redunadant since it was superfluous from teh getgo.
After spending trillions of dollars where are we now?
Pretty much were we started.
[/quote]
Very well said. We have literally spent trillions and the poverty rates and so forth are the same as ever.
Will we ever learn that it is PRODUCTION that makes wealth, not spending funny money and growing debt?
The collapse…the collapse…its here…
[quote]optheta wrote:
Repub’s act tough when it comes to Taxes and cutting spending but all that stuff leads to a LOWER QUALITY OF LIFE and people cannot nay will not accept that. Thats why nothing will really change and everybody hopes if just keep it as it is all will be okay. People want to have their cake and eat it.[/quote]
Maybe in some cases, alot of the guys on here that talk about it fully understand the rammifications of cutting spending and are ready for it. I believe in paying for what you use. A hand up should come from voluntary organizations (church, community organizations)and individuals, not of force.
I am fully for cutting spedning, private education, privatization of all insurance, no more entitlement programs. And because I have lived my pife ensuring that I can be self reliant and not dependent on someone else, why should I have to suffer and be forced to have my money taken from to be used completely inefficiently.
What authority do you have to assume you can just STEAL what you want from those who earn it. Because I believe the contitution gives me the right to protect me, my family and my property from enemies both foreign and domestic. And it also gives me the right to be well armed so I can.
Those increasing taxes are traitors and theives and should be treated as such. Stealing money to pay off sheep.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
The people that pay the most taxes should receive the tax break. How can those that pay no tax get an additional tax cut? How is it fair for someone like me to get the same tax cut as someone who pays 10 - 100x more in taxes.
Warren Buffet has a saying about dividends and whether or not a company should pay them. If the company can do more with the retained earnings than you can on your own, they should not pay dividends. If they can’t do more than you can, pay the dividends. Apply that to taxes. Government spending is non productive, wasteful, inefficient, and corrupt. Cut taxes.
I would think that it is owed to the highest tax payers that the rest of us get on our hands and knees and thank them. Let’s of course make the condition that the earnings were made honestly and legally.[/quote]
On the same note as above, at what point are the rich “paying enough”?
The top 5% pays over 50% of the taxes already:
http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html
Oh and of course:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1
[quote]fcrenshaw wrote:
[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
Yes, a Republican will get elected, cut taxes, and everything will go back to the good ole’ days.
And you say Dems are ‘hope-notized’
lol
[/quote]
The problem is Repubs cut taxes w/o cutting spending. Both parties are full of retards.[/quote]
The problem is a republican president can only go as far as congress will allow. That’s why we need both a republican president and a republican congress. Give the republicans the same power that was given the democrats over the past two years and I honestly think that you’ll see us heading in the right direction once again. Slowly but at least in the right direction.
[quote]apbt55 wrote:
[quote]optheta wrote:
Repub’s act tough when it comes to Taxes and cutting spending but all that stuff leads to a LOWER QUALITY OF LIFE and people cannot nay will not accept that. Thats why nothing will really change and everybody hopes if just keep it as it is all will be okay. People want to have their cake and eat it.[/quote]
Maybe in some cases, alot of the guys on here that talk about it fully understand the rammifications of cutting spending and are ready for it. I believe in paying for what you use. A hand up should come from voluntary organizations (church, community organizations)and individuals, not of force.
I am fully for cutting spedning, private education, privatization of all insurance, no more entitlement programs. And because I have lived my pife ensuring that I can be self reliant and not dependent on someone else, why should I have to suffer and be forced to have my money taken from to be used completely inefficiently.
What authority do you have to assume you can just STEAL what you want from those who earn it. Because I believe the contitution gives me the right to protect me, my family and my property from enemies both foreign and domestic. And it also gives me the right to be well armed so I can.
Those increasing taxes are traitors and theives and should be treated as such. Stealing money to pay off sheep.[/quote]
Taxes are not stealing, stop calling it that. It is what we all pay for living in a Modern Society.