Wuh? 'The Donald'?

[Aggv]

[quote]JR249 wrote:
I agree completely that illegal immigration is a grave concern, but I don’t believe that 80% of them are violent criminals.
[/quote]

Violent no, but 100% of illegal immigrants are criminals.

[JR249]

[quote]Aggv wrote:

Violent no, but 100% of illegal immigrants are criminals. [/quote]

Okay, agreed, but I think that’s a small matter of semantics in the larger sea of what was opined by Trump, which is why I can understand where reasonable people might take umbrage with his choice of words and his broad brushing of the Latino populace as a whole, while mutually exclusively acknowledging that we do have a legitimate problem with illegal immigration in and of itself.

[ZEB]

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
ZEB wrote:

Another towering heap of nothing[/quote]

Which you could not refute so you didn’t try.

Alright, I’ll drop the reductive sarcasm and play this straight for you, even though you don’t deserve it, given the fact that you’ve chosen to simply ignore the original point of contention on which you got beat like a drum yesterday (I don’t blame you, though: I rarely do this, but I must admit that that post of mine – the one in which I gave you the benefit of the doubt and reproduced for you the substantive argument you’d been curiously ignoring – was not one I’d want to have to respond to either).

Hey, get back down to planet earth. I refuted every word of your argument. But you have not refuted mine. You ignored it because it was just a bit too spot on for you. I understand but keep in mind that accusing me of what you actually did is not only bad form but it won’t work.

[quote]So, playing it straight vis-a-vis Trump’s “impressive” wealth:

– No, it isn’t all that impressive or surprising when a guy who is born really rich gets really, very, filthy rich. The easiest way to make money is to have money with which to make more money. This is even easier if one is handed not only the money with which to begin but also an organizational apparatus built for investment. I haven’t the first idea what you do for the living, but if it’s got something to do with business, you should be aware that it’s the assembly of the machine that takes the most guts/effort/thought. Once the machine is running, things become much easier. You should be further aware of the fact that a guy who owns/“runs” something is not necessarily responsible for any of the thing’s particular successes. How many people involved with Trump’s businesses are smarter than he? Could you count them on one hand? On two? On ten?[/quote]

And who hired those impressive smart people, Santa Clause? You actually think you are going to take credit away from Trump by accusing him of hiring smart people?

LOL…in the world of politics leaders get, and take, great credit for putting the right man or woman on the job.

I have to keep track this time. Your first point has been refuted and I didn’t break a sweat as you actually tried to take credit away from a man who chooses his help wisely. WOW.

Yes, he had to have made good investments in order to gt richer over the years. No, this doesn’t necessarily make him particularly smart, for reasons given in the foregoing paragraph. Again, there are actual smart people on this planet.

I agree and until recently I thought you were one of them. But it’s not too late give it up man you’re looking bad on this one.

People who design the vessels by which the ISS gets supplied, people who design economic models by which to arrange and interpret millions of lines of data, people who were born in New York to English-speaking parents but who can read the Iliad or Torah in its original language. Using your dad’s millions to buy and then sell shit – this does not compare. Sorry.

You are comparing Apples to Oranges. But, sure there are many different kinds of intelligences we can agree on that. Designers, poets, those who speak fluently in several different languages, artists etc. I have respect for every single one of them. But my respect does not stop at the door of those who are gifted in business as does yours.

You’ve hit another wall on point two. This was easier to refute than point one and I didn’t think that was possible.

There is apparently some controversy regarding both Trump’s current net worth and the size of his inheritance. Let’s say he inherited $30 million, which appears to be a reasonable-to-low estimate. Being as he is a bloviating dunce, he apparently overestimates his net worth by an enormous margin. Let’s split the difference between Forbes’ estimate and Trump’s own claim, putting him at 6 billion.

I agree we could have an entire separate argument on what he’s actually worth. He is a born promoter which makes him part liar, just like our good friends in Washington DC. So I guess he’s a natural for politics right?

But sure 6 billion is as good a number as 8, or the 9 billion he says he’s worth.

So, 30 million, inherited in 1976, is equivalent to ~125 million today, which means that Trump has enriched himself by a factor of 48. My father inherited nothing – literally nothing. In fact, he joined the army exactly because he had nothing and no one. Then he got out, got a PhD, yadda yadda. Now, he’s very well off. He has enriched himself by far, far more than a mere factor of 48. And guess what? He thinks that Donald Trump is a laughable idiot. By your very own (idiotic) logic, my father’s opinion is worth more than Trump’s, because my father enriched himself to a much greater degree than old Donald ever did. So, even by your own dim lights, you’re up shit’s creek.

Wow, you have just thrown logic to the curb on that one. Before I take it apart congratulations to your Dad he is no doubt smart and also hard working.

Unfortunately, for you that is where the compliments end as now I am going to take apart your illogical argument and it won’t take long for point three to fall as did the others.

You are saying your Dad’s success is actually greater dollar per dollar and let’s simply agree on that. Now explain to me how does your father doing well take anything away from Trumps success?

It is simply illogical and as you read this I know you agree.

If I bench press 335 pounds is that bad simply because the world record for Bench pressing might be 1000 pounds?

If a baseball player pounds out 45 homeruns in a season did he do a bad job just because Babe Ruth hit 60?

If a man can run 100 meters in 11 seconds is he still not fast even though Usain Bolt ran it in something like 9.6?

Okay, I could go on forever but hopefully you see where you stumbled here. And quite frankly it was your biggest flop yet.

I will leave you with this:

There are approximately 7 billion people on earth. About 1,800 of them are billionaires. I won’t even take away from the group those who inherited billions to begin with which Trump did not do.

Now do the math. A tiny fraction of perhaps .0001% of people on planet earth are billionaires. And you want to take credit away from the man?

Hang your head smh…and give the man his due. Sure he comes off as a two bit self promoting jerk no question, as do many politicians. But, the facts are the facts and whether you like Trump or not he built himself a multi billion dollar financial empire beginning with only 2.5% of that or about 25 million. There is no way you can denigrate that achievement. And I think I have proven that in this post. You are reaching and scrambling and trying to make it fit and even throwing logic to the wind. But, in the end what Trump did is still amazing and irrefutable.

Don’t get me wrong you can dislike his personality, there is plenty there to dislike. But you cannot take away his success story especially with the feeble arguments that you have attempted here on T Nation.

I did that math quickly, so, if I’ve made an error, somebody please feel free to correct me.

No need to check the math the logic was so poor it matters not.

[pat]

It’s interesting to see how the Don brought the absolute worst out in people.

[smh_23]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I have to keep track this time. Your first point has been refuted and I didn’t break a sweat as you actually tried to take credit away from a man who chooses his help wisely. WOW.[/quote]

I didn’t “take credit away,” I said it’s not that impressive to inherit an investment apparatus that you didn’t build and that works well…and then continue to take the advice of the people who make it work. There are many actors, athletes, rappers, etc. who consult with smart people and make the right investments. Good for them – it’s what they should be doing. But it isn’t impressive to me, and if it is impressive to you then, as I said, the dandelion considers the slug to be as fast and agile as lightning in July.

[quote]
You are saying your Dad’s success is actually greater dollar per dollar and let’s simply agree on that. Now explain to me how does your father doing well take anything away from Trumps success?

It is simply illogical and as you read this I know you agree.[/quote]

Good lord. Of course I agree. I was showing you how stupid you’d been. Let me walk you through it. I said this:

He has enriched himself by far, far more than a mere factor of 48. And guess what? He thinks that Donald Trump is a laughable idiot. By your very own (idiotic) logic, my father’s opinion is worth more than Trump’s, because my father enriched himself to a much greater degree than old Donald ever did.[/quote]

Which I very obviously (indeed, I was explicit: “by your very own idiotic logic”) wrote as a mockery of this, from you:

you would do well to stop calling people who are roughly 10 times smarter and how many times richer (YIKES) than you buffoons and babblers. I mean really…do you think you could stand up to Donald Trump in a one on one debate[/quote]

Allow me to slow down so that you understand: you began with the fatuous implication that a person with X amount of financial success is somehow more perspicacious/intelligent than, and therefore ought not to be criticized by, a person with Y amount of financial success, where X > Y. I mocked the arrant stupidity of this notion by pointing out to you that my father has had (proportionally) more financial success than Trump…and thinks Trump is a ridiculous buffoon and an imbecile. Now – please tell me you’re still following along – by the lights of the dumb sentiment with which you began, my father’s financial success affords his opinion of Trump supremacy over Trump’s own characterization of himself as a smart guy who would make a good president.

It is never a good sign when the mocker must explain the mocking to the mockee.

Anyway, you also said this, about my observation that you’d cut and run from our actual factual disagreement:

I refuted every word of your argument.

This is, in fact, a lie. My last post on the subject is reproduced below. It QED’ed you in such a way that you could not figure out how to formulate even a characteristically-nonsensical babble-retort, as a result of which you, being PWI’s resident member of the Mustelidae family, just dropped the matter altogether. Please do respond if you’d like to pretend that you haven’t had your ass beat here:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
[A towering heap of nothing.]

I see that you forgot to respond to the part of my post that was substantive. That is, the part concerned with the factual disagreement from which this exchange sprang (or perhaps I should say “limped,” given that a limp is achieved by way of one functional side and one [sometimes pitiably] defective one). Or is it instead the case that you did end up stretching your intellect to the point that it was, at long and costly last, capable of absorbing the meaning of those three words in conjunction…at which point you saw that there was no response available to you but a concessive one…at which further point you – being as intellectually dishonest as you are pettily averse to acknowledging your frequent and obvious errors – decided to ignore the whole thing? Probably the latter, but I’ll afford you the benefit of the doubt and reproduce what needed to be addressed (note that I have altered it slightly so as to render it even more difficult for you to misinterpret, which is not to say that I doubt your ability to overcome any difficulty you might encounter in practicing the craft of misinterpretation):

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Again, this time a little more slowly and simply: I said that he was pretending to have to assume that not all Mexican immigrants to the United States are rapists. You objected to this in some vague way and for some ambiguous reason the precise nature of which I don’t think even you understand. Nonetheless – this was our disagreement.

Now, his words, as produced now by both you and I, were:

“They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

“They’re rapists.” They are rapists. They. Are. Rapists. If you take the time, you will undoubtedly work through whatever Augean obstacle is impeding your journey to an understanding of this three-word sentence. I wish you favorable winds and happy sailing.

Afterward, you can figure out “And some, I assume, are good people.” In the end you will come to the following conclusion: Donald Trump was pretending – because even an utter idiot like Trump cannot possibly be so stupid as to believe this nonsense – to have to assume that not all Mexican immigrants to the United States are rapists [and drug-smugglers and criminals, if you care to do justice to Donald’s intricate formulation]. QED.

As for whatever it is you’re trying to say about my “sentences”: If you’re going to go ad hominem (I won’t blame you: I certainly have, haven’t I?), please try something that has at least a small chance of working. Otherwise, no fun will be had by any.

An aside: Don’t think I’m taking offense or actually getting upset here. I enjoy taking a Hitchensian battle-axe into PWI from time to time, and you – because of the clumsy, inept, and generally objectionable way you conduct yourself hereabouts – happen to present a guilt-free target. For that, I suppose, I should thank you.

Edited.[/quote]

Note: I probably won’t be back unless you actually do respond with an argument.

[smh_23]

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

In other words, “They’re bringing their rapists.”
[/quote]

I’m sure he would have tried to make this point if that’s what he meant. Seems very unlikely either way. I just listened to it again. He pauses before he says “they’re rapists,” and each of the two preceding sentences began with the contraction “they’re.” Furthermore, the next sentence implicitly completes the sequence of “they’re”:

They’re bringing drugs.

They’re bringing crime.

They’re rapists.

And some, I assume, are (i.e. They’re) good people.

There is definitely no indication that the third sentence deviates from this pattern, and every indication that it doesn’t.[/quote]

Again, here’s how I take it in this Land of Contractional Confusion:

They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re (even) bringing their rapists.

It wouldn’t matter to me if it was Hillary Clinton who said this, I think I’d have to interpret it the same way. So it hasn’t nothing to do with my ideological bent.[/quote]

I’m not saying that this is impossible, because of course it isn’t, but it’s by far the greater stretch. My interpretation has going for it continuity (“they’re” is always the contraction in that repetitive portion of Trump’s remarks). More importantly, your interpretation assumes that Trump spoke a strange fragment of a sentence with a silent, implicit subject and verb when (Occam time) a grammatically correct, rhetorically pre-signaled sentence can be heard instead. Furthermore, Trump has not corrected the thousands of accounts that have quoted him as saying “they’re.” In light of even just this last point, there is every reason to believe it was “they’re” and no reason to believe otherwise.

[ZEB]

smh_23,

You don’t get to reframe the argument when your prior points turn out to be crap and are refuted faster than a Hillary Clinton lie.

I challenged you on your four specific points. You cannot defend them so instead you pull partial quotes from former posts and leave out various things from current ones. You try to use personal invectives in place of a good solid argument. You must really beat up on the newcomers around her with those smarmy tactics. But such disingenuous bullshit won’t pass muster with me. So, I will call you out again on these four specific points. And you will answer them or this conversation is over.

Point #1.

Your accusation was that Trump succeeded because of all of the smart people around him.

How many people involved with Trumps business are smarter than him

My answer: hiring smart people is part of being successful. Good leaders are known for having smart people around them. This is not a fault but instead a real asset.

Your response_________________________________________________________.

Point #2.

Your ridiculous and unfair comparison of intelligences.

Using your Dads millions to buy and sell shit this does not compare (to real intelligence).

Never before have I ever seen such an idiotic description of how someone comes to be worth 8 billion dollars. You actually believe achieving such great wealth is somehow an accident? You choose to demean the man rather than give him credit for his accomplishments. I am starting to sniff out just a tad of jealousy and more than enough emotion to go around: “I hate Trump therefore he’s a dumb guy” That makes you a very weak and stupid individual.

Your response_________________________________________________________.

Point #3.

Your illogical argument comparing your Dads success to Trumps. Negating all of Trumps success because your Dad turned a higher profit, percentage wise, with what he had to work with. And you also threw in the fact that your Dad dislikes Trump. (is that a family pastime?)

Because my Father enriched himself to a much greater degree than old Donald ever did."

This was without question your lowest moment in a long list of very low moments. I corrected your polluted and illogical thinking on this by pointing out that no matter how great your Dads success was that takes nothing away from Trump, who by the way succeeded to a far greater financial height. In other words, no matter what your father has accomplished (taking nothing away from him) has nothing to do with Trump.

Your response_______________________________________________________________

Point #4

Finally, I had to school you on the fact that billionaire status is exceptionally rare. There are 7 billion people in the world and only 1,800 of them are billionaires. A very rare group indeed. But instead of giving the man his due, even if he is a big mouth showman you denigrate his achievements. Because you are simply unable to separate your emotion from what we call REALITY. At least that’s been the case up to now.

Your response_______________________________________________________________

And you have the gall to post the following on your previous post which ducks the above four points?

[quote]Note: I probably won’t be back unless you actually do respond with an argument.
[/quote]

Well, now your chore is to fill in the response areas above. Of course use as much space as needed but stay within the topic when addressing each. You are not allowed to take things out of sequence, or refer to things that didn’t happen. Nor can you bob and weave like a punch drunk boxer trying not to get hit. It is laid out before you so answer the questions or disappear into the T Nation night.

Short of responding to each point I am done with you and your absolute foolish arguments and your disingenuous argumentation methods.

[angry_chicken]

I don’t have a bone in this fight, but I couldn’t help myself. The real estate business is like a chess match on steroids. Seriously. People with money invest it in real estate (buying and holding, flipping, property management, etc…) and lose their ass on a regular basis. I don’t care how much money Trump was given to start out with - he turned millions (with an “M”) into BILLIONS (with a “B”). That take balls, street smarts, negotiating skill, and LUCK…

I also recall that he made and LOST his fortune several times, declared bankruptcy several times, AND CAME BACK FROM IT… That’s not just luck, that’s skill. As I’ve said before, I’m not a Trump fan, but to not acknowledge his skill and tenacity and raw business ability is pretty ignorant.

my .02

[BCFlynn]

Love the guy. There is not an ounce of political correctness in him. I’m tired of professional politicians and carpetbaggers. Romney was the most qualified candidate since Reagan to run and he lost by playing it safe in the last 2 debates instead of hammering Obama over Benghazi.

Trump would care less about telling Hillary what a fraud she is. He’s not going to win, but onc an dream right?

Too many skeletons, too many marriages too big of an ego.

[thunderbolt23]

Trump’s a clown. He’s a carnival barker who couldn’t effectively run an executive department.

Born to wealth, he’s been through what, four bankruptcies? I suppose in that sense he may be the quintessential G.O.P. candidate. But he really isn’t renowned for his business acumen.

He knows sales and how to capitalize on consumer trends - witness his capitalizing on reality television early. But that doesn’t translate into executing important public policy. Anyone who thinks so is delusional.

More important, I think, than Trump, is how the G.O.P. voting base views Trump. The fact that he has surged in the polls - a la Ben Carson, another complete pretender - is a sign this party isn’t prepared to get serious fora national election.

[ZEB]

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

The fact that he has surged in the polls - a la Ben Carson, another complete pretender - is a sign this party isn’t prepared to get serious fora national election.[/quote]

Early polls are usually a sign of name recognition only. Hillary is out in front in the weak democratic field. But, I actually think that will tighten some. It would take a miracle for her to lose the nomination however. Jeb Bush is always in the top two or three positions. The only thing that I find just a tad remarkable is Ben Carson’s poll standings. He’s doing well and he’s not what I would call a household name.

[ZEB]

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I don’t have a bone in this fight, but I couldn’t help myself. The real estate business is like a chess match on steroids. Seriously. People with money invest it in real estate (buying and holding, flipping, property management, etc…) and lose their ass on a regular basis. I don’t care how much money Trump was given to start out with - he turned millions (with an “M”) into BILLIONS (with a “B”). That take balls, street smarts, negotiating skill, and LUCK…

I also recall that he made and LOST his fortune several times, declared bankruptcy several times, AND CAME BACK FROM IT… That’s not just luck, that’s skill. As I’ve said before, I’m not a Trump fan, but to not acknowledge his skill and tenacity and raw business ability is pretty ignorant.

my .02[/quote]

Exactly my point. I’ve called him a big mouth and someone who is “mostly promoter”. Obviously, not my choice to occupy the Oval office. But for heaven sakes making 8 billion dollars is pretty freaking rare.

[smh_23]

You are mischaracterizing my positions. This is called “straw man” argumentation. I’m going to repeat myself in places so as to mitigate your risk of incomprehension. Anyway, please stick around until Point #3, because it may be the first time in PWI that a person has been mocked, faceplanted by failing to understand he’s being mocked, been helped to his feet by the mocker, who explained everything, and then, somehow, found a way to once again faceplant by failing to understand he’s being mocked. In other words, you’ve broken new ground here, and I cannot but stand and applaud.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Point #1.

Your accusation was that Trump succeeded because of all of the smart people around him.

How many people involved with Trumps business are smarter than him

My answer: hiring smart people is part of being successful. Good leaders are known for having smart people around them. This is not a fault but instead a real asset.
[/quote]

This was not an “accusation,” and it was never described as a “fault.” I said that it is the right thing to do, but it isn’t all that impressive. This was a small part of a larger point: it isn’t all that impressive for someone to inherit an enormous amount of money along with a well-functioning investment apparatus (hence the enormous inheritance) and then continue to make money by way of investment income.

Time for logical hand-holding with SMH:

“It isn’t all that impressive” does not mean “it is bad.”

“It isn’t all that impressive” does not mean “it is wrong.”

“It isn’t all that impressive” does not mean “it is a fault.”

“It isn’t all that impressive” means “it isn’t all that impressive.” I have now conceded many times that, to a certain degree, subjectivity is the law of the land vis-a-vis what is and is not impressive. Thus, you may well disagree and be thoroughly impressed with Donald Trump’s intelligence. If so, all I can do is offer you my sympathies and suggest that we drop this point, because I am not, and this isn’t going to change. I have made good money in business, and I have read James Joyce. The latter was more difficult by a margin of late-Brandonian width. Full stop.

Point #2.

Your ridiculous and unfair comparison of intelligences.

Using your Dads millions to buy and sell shit this does not compare (to real intelligence).

Never before have I ever seen such an idiotic description of how someone comes to be worth 8 billion dollars. You actually believe achieving such great wealth is somehow an accident? You choose to demean the man rather than give him credit for his accomplishments. I am starting to sniff out just a tad of jealousy and more than enough emotion to go around: “I hate Trump therefore he’s a dumb guy” That makes you a very weak and stupid individual.

I would respond, but there is nothing to respond to. I never used the word “accident” (remember that term, “straw man”?). Yes, mine was a perfectly legitimate single-sentence precis of Trump’s career. If this is not the case, please provide evidence to the contrary. Note that this would entail your showing that Trump either:

1. Did not inherit millions from his dad

or

2. Did not use those millions to make investments

or

3. Did do those things, but actually got rich in some other way, such as inventing new biomedical technologies, or selling paper-clips, or digging for gold.

Good luck to you.

Point #4

Your illogical argument comparing your Dads success to Trumps. Negating all of Trumps success because your Dad turned a higher profit, percentage wise, with what he had to work with. And you also threw in the fact that your Dad dislikes Trump. (is that a family pastime?)

Because my Father enriched himself to a much greater degree than old Donald ever did."

This was without question your lowest moment in a long list of very low moments. I corrected your polluted and illogical thinking on this by pointing out that no matter how great your Dads success was that takes nothing away from Trump, who by the way succeeded to a far greater financial height. In other words, no matter what your father has accomplished (taking nothing away from him) has nothing to do with Trump.

And we arrive at the beating heart of the deformed and suppurating monster you’ve cobbled together out of fallacy, bullshit, and Trumpian jackassery. I don’t know whether you’re being disingenuous (I did, remember, identify you as PWI’s resident member of the Mustelidae family – and I stand by my taxonomic intuitions) or whether you truly don’t understand what’s been going on, but all I can really do is reproduce for you my last walk-through. It couldn’t be made simpler. Really, you should give an honest go of understanding the concept of a reductio ad absurdum, because none of it rises above a high-school level of difficulty:

[quote]
smh_23 wrote:
I was showing you how stupid you’d been. Let me walk you through it. I said this:

[quote]
He has enriched himself by far, far more than a mere factor of 48. And guess what? He thinks that Donald Trump is a laughable idiot. By your very own (idiotic) logic, my father’s opinion is worth more than Trump’s, because my father enriched himself to a much greater degree than old Donald ever did.[/quote]

Which I very obviously (indeed, I was explicit: “by your very own idiotic logic”) wrote as a mockery of this, from you:

you would do well to stop calling people who are roughly 10 times smarter and how many times richer (YIKES) than you buffoons and babblers. I mean really…do you think you could stand up to Donald Trump in a one on one debate[/quote]

Allow me to slow down so that you understand: you began with the fatuous implication that a person with X amount of financial success is somehow more perspicacious/intelligent than, and therefore ought not to be criticized by, a person with Y amount of financial success, where X > Y. I mocked the arrant stupidity of this notion by pointing out to you that my father has had (proportionally) more financial success than Trump…and thinks Trump is a ridiculous buffoon and an imbecile. Now – please tell me you’re still following along – by the lights of the dumb sentiment with which you began, my father’s financial success affords his opinion of Trump supremacy over Trump’s own characterization of himself as a smart guy who would make a good president.

It is never a good sign when the mocker must explain the mocking to the mockee.

And finally:

Point #4

Finally, I had to school you on the fact that billionaire status is exceptionally rare. There are 7 billion people in the world and only 1,800 of them are billionaires. A very rare group indeed. But instead of giving the man his due, even if he is a big mouth showman you denigrate his achievements. Because you are simply unable to separate your emotion from what we call REALITY. At least that’s been the case up to now.

You seem not to understand something. “I’m not all that impressed when a very rich guy gets very, really, filthy rich by pumping money he inherited into an investment apparatus he also inherited” – this is not denigration (or, this part isn’t: it certainly is when I call him a D-list reality-TV laughingstock buffoon, but that’s another story). I’m not saying he did a bad job, and I’m not saying it wouldn’t be lovely to be able to buy a yacht and spend the next three months in the Mediterranean. I am simply saying that none of it is all that impressive to me. I don’t give a shit whether you think it should be: it isn’t. Maybe if I were you, I would be impressed. I’m not you. I’m not a dandelion, and, though I concede that you are old (this being, apparently, your most cherished credential), it is certain that I have seen and done a lot more than you have. Not that this should become a pissing contest: we are simply going to accept that one of us is impressed with Donald Trump, and one of us isn’t. That just one of us can cogently articulate his position will be allowed to slide.

Now, you continue to run from our original disagreement, on which topic I created a post to which you have very dishonestly refused to reply. I am going to assume that you fully concede, and I’m going to further assume that you will deny that you fully concede. Do enjoy inhabiting that contradiction.

[smh_23]

On surrounding oneself with good and experienced people:

When I was 16, I applied for a summer job at an exclusive adventure camp out west.

The manager interviewed me over the phone and then in person.

She called me a week later to tell me that I’d done well, but a guy years older than I, with lots of experience at various similar organizations (and with lots of relevant certifications) had been too good to pass up.

In other words, she decided to surround herself with the best-qualified employees.

This was undoubtedly the right thing to do. It was undoubtedly a good move. And yet there is nothing particularly impressive about it. Or maybe there is, in which case I suggest that he who is impressed should get out more.

[ZEB]

[quote] smh_23 wrote:
You are mischaracterizing my positions. This is called “straw man” argumentation. [/quote]

No, you are mostly ducking my points and twisting your previous posts to make yourself look better. That’s called being an ass.

[quote] ZEB wrote:
Point #1.

Your accusation was that Trump succeeded because of all of the smart people around him.

My answer: hiring smart people is part of being successful. Good leaders are known for having smart people around them. This is not a fault but instead a real asset.

This was not an “accusation,” and it was never described as a “fault.” I said that it is the right thing to do, [/quote]

You never said that “it was the right thing to do”

I defended this because you used it as a hammer to beat Trump down when in fact it is a great skill to have. Hiring those who are smarter than you helps you succeed!

This is what you said:

You should be further aware of the fact that a guy who owns/“runs” something is not necessarily responsible for any of the thing’s particular successes. How many people involved with Trump’s businesses are smarter than he? Could you count them on one hand? On two? On ten

Nothing in that quote, your original thought on the matter that would lead anyone to believe that you said “it was the right thing to do”

1. You said in essence that he is not responsible for his success in the first line.

2. You take the credit away from Trump and give it to those around him. Which as I accurately pointed out (and you never agreed to) Trump gets the credit for hiring smart people.

You Failed On this Point in a big way.

[quote] Time for logical hand-holding with SMH:

“It isn’t all that impressive” does not mean “it is bad.”[/quote]

But it doesn’t mean it’s good either. And making 8 billion dollars is quite a feat, not by your twisted standards, but according to the rest of the world.

“It isn’t all that impressive” means “it isn’t all that impressive.”

Yet, try as you might after multiple posts you cannot give a cohesive argument as to why it isn’t objectively impressive. I am not asking you to fawn over his wealth I’m certainly not. Simply give the man his due…you see you can’t do that. Odd.

In fact, you denigrate the man “whaa his daddy had money, he’s a jerk”

I have now conceded many times that, to a certain degree, subjectivity is the law of the land vis-a-vis what is and is not impressive. Thus, you may well disagree and be thoroughly impressed with Donald Trump’s intelligence.

I am and always was asking for objectivity from you. Too much to ask?

I think one has to be at least slightly smarter than average to achieve 8 billion dollars in wealth. And perhaps quite a bit smarter than that. Again, only 1,800 people have done it.

You are not objectively impressed with this? And the reason is you hate Trump? That’s an interesting mind you have and glad I don’t have one like it.

You have this visceral emotion about Trump and then you attempt to throw post after post of illogical bullshit in an attempt to what? PROVE YOUR EMOTION IS CORRECT? And all of this coming from someone who fancies himself a deep thinker. You really are a paradox and one that you should not be proud of.

One mark of a smart man is to be able to separate his emotions from good sound reasoning and logic. You’ve failed miserably in this area and that can’t make you feel very good.

People are reading this and probably thinking “sure Trumps an ass, but whoa he made a whole lot of money and certainly isn’t dumb.”

But you for some reason stubbornly cling to a false supposition and you do it purely from emotion without one scintilla of evidence to back you up.

You Failed On This Point As well.

all I can do is offer you my sympathies and suggest that we drop this point, because I am not, and this isn’t going to change. I have made good money in business, and I have read James Joyce. The latter was more difficult by a margin of late-Brandonian width. Full stop.

We are not engaged in this (pretty much meaningless time wasting) debate because I am trying to convince you that it is better to make money than to read a book. Nor, am I trying to get you to fall in love with Trump, I’m sure as hell not in love with the guy.

What I am doing is trying to point out that no matter how much you hate Trump the fact that he made 8 billion dollars should be objectively IMPRESSIVE. That you cannot understand the significance and rarity of this is mind boggling and speaks to your own issues with separating emotion from fact.

[quote]
Your ridiculous and unfair comparison of intelligences.

Using your Dads millions to buy and sell shit this does not compare (to real intelligence).

Never before have I ever seen such an idiotic description of how someone comes to be worth 8 billion dollars. You actually believe achieving such great wealth is somehow an accident? You choose to demean the man rather than give him credit for his accomplishments. I am starting to sniff out just a tad of jealousy and more than enough emotion to go around: “I hate Trump therefore he’s a dumb guy” That makes you a very weak and stupid individual.

I would respond, but there is nothing to respond to. I never used the word “accident” [/quote]

Oh darn, you missed that little question mark that I placed after that particular sentence.

It looks like this > ?

You see that means I was asking a question. I was not declaring that you said it, I was asking if that’s what you thought.

I thought you were a reader? Oh well Internet persona cannot be confused with reality can it?

So it looks like you do have to defend that particular point.

So get busy…

By the way here’s exactly what you said:

People who design the vessels by which the ISS gets supplied, people who design economic models by which to arrange and interpret millions of lines of data, people who were born in New York to English-speaking parents but who can read the Iliad or Torah in its original language. Using your dad’s millions to buy and then sell shit – this does not compare. Sorry.

Does not compare to what? Once again, becoming a billionaire is not comparable to designing economic models? Well, they are two completely different things. How can we make a judgment when they are so different? Hey, how about we look at how many people can make such a model as opposed to how many people can achieve at least 1 billion in wealth.

There are 7 billion people in the world only 1,800 of them are billionaires. How many do you suppose can create an “economic model” you knit wit.

So in your above statement you seek to take credit away from Trump AGAIN.

You lost this Point without even a reasonable argument–

If you’re keeping track you are 0 for 3.

[quote]
Point #4

Your illogical argument comparing your Dads success to Trumps. Negating all of Trumps success because your Dad turned a higher profit, percentage wise, with what he had to work with. And you also threw in the fact that your Dad dislikes Trump. (is that a family pastime?)

Because my Father enriched himself to a much greater degree than old Donald ever did.

This was without question your lowest moment in a long list of very low moments. I corrected your polluted and illogical thinking on this by pointing out that no matter how great your Dads success was that takes nothing away from Trump, who by the way succeeded to a far greater financial height. In other words, no matter what your father has accomplished (taking nothing away from him) has nothing to do with Trump.

smh_23 wrote:
I was showing you how stupid you’d been. Let me walk you through it. I said this:

He has enriched himself by far, far more than a mere factor of 48. And guess what? He thinks that Donald Trump is a laughable idiot. [/quote]

Stop right there your Daddy thinks Trump is an idiot and he increased his wealth by a greater factor than 48 so he must be right. Therefore…you agree end of topic. And you say you’re a logical person?

(shaking head) wow every one of your arguments is purely emotional. Just WOW!

By your very own (idiotic) logic,

My logic is idiotic? and you are quoting your father’s opinion based upon the fact he made more than 48 times what he started with in a debate about your opinion of Donald Trump?

Yeah…Ooookay

[quote] my father’s opinion is worth more than Trump’s, because my father enriched himself to a much greater degree than old Donald ever did.

Which I very obviously (indeed, I was explicit: “by your very own idiotic logic”) wrote as a mockery of this, from you:

you would do well to stop calling people who are roughly 10 times smarter and how many times richer (YIKES) than you buffoons and babblers. I mean really…do you think you could stand up to Donald Trump in a one on one debate[/quote]

I know it’s impossible to defend these points I’ve laid before you. But to take out of context various tidbits from an argument from a different post. That makes you look desperate.

I do detect a bit of jealousy in your distaste of Donald Trump and think that this is what “might” drive your hatred for the man.

[quote]

And finally:

Point #4

Finally, I had to school you on the fact that billionaire status is exceptionally rare. There are 7 billion people in the world and only 1,800 of them are billionaires. A very rare group indeed. But instead of giving the man his due, even if he is a big mouth showman you denigrate his achievements. Because you are simply unable to separate your emotion from what we call REALITY. At least that’s been the case up to now.

You seem not to understand something. “I’m not all that impressed when a very rich guy gets very, really, filthy rich by pumping money he inherited into an investment apparatus he also inherited” [/quote]

Instead of unleashing a barrage of insults which will only amuse me and tick you off I want to share a thought I just had as to why you don’t get it.

You don’t understand money!

You hear that he inherited about 25 million and think “aha he was filthy rich it was handed to him.” But you see my ignorant little friend 25 million is peanuts when compared to 8 billion dollars. If you can’t wrap your tiny mind around that then I guess you will continue to stumble through life living off “the system” not really knowing the value of money.

this is not denigration (or, this part isn’t: it certainly is when I call him a D-list reality-TV laughingstock buffoon, but that’s another story

One more problem, you are not smart enough to separate Trump the reality showman…buffoon whatever from Trump the guy who was busy making serious money long before reality TV was born. You really do have a difficult time with understanding.

I’m not saying he did a bad job,

But, you gave him zero credit for building his great wealth as you attributed it to other people. And you claimed that his “skill” at making money fails in comparison to um designers

But now you hedge a bit huh?

Well it had to come eventually after all my only point is that he did a great job with what was handed to him and that makes him a pretty smart guy.

I doubt most would disagree with this, other than you of course (and your father).

and I’m not saying it wouldn’t be lovely to be able to buy a yacht and spend the next three months in the Mediterranean. I am simply saying that none of it is all that impressive to me.

It not being impressive to you is a far cry from calling him an idiot, buffoon, moron etc. And he relied on others to achieve wealth (even though he hand picked that winning team

But all that aside I am not asking you to be wide eyed drooling falling all over yourself impressed, I’m not in that category either. What I am asking is that you be objectively impressed. Open your mind and look beyond his TV persona, or public image and realize that you can’t build that kind of wealth and also be stupid.

By the way, you cannot change the argument in the 9th inning and accuse me of being overly impressed when that was never the argument to begin with. that makes me want to scream…

STRAW MAN ALERT

it is certain that I have seen and done a lot more than you have.

More dumb out of place commentary from someone who fancies himself a really SHMART GUY. So you’ve done a lot more than I have says someone who knows nothing about what I have accomplished, where I have lived etc. But since I find Trumps accomplishments impressive I must be a poor hick living in the Ozarks. You pompous ass I won’t make any such claims in reverse because I know very little about you. But I’ve lived a great life so far, made plenty of money, been to many different countries, have a wonderful loving family etc. And the good part is it matters not what you have done as that doesn’t effect me. Just like your Dad succeeding and not liking Trump does not effect Trumps success in any way. You do think highly of yourself but you should think twice before you make the claim you did above.

Not that this should become a pissing contest: we are simply going to accept that one of us is impressed with Donald Trump, and one of us isn’t.

You have mischaracterized my position. I’M SHOCKED!

I am impressed with what business man Donald Trump has built in his lifetime. Do you see the difference? And in order to do so he is a pretty smart guy.

Simple but not graspable by you…

That just one of us can cogently articulate his position will be allowed to slide.

I agree I was not going to mock you for being a step behind in this debate. Nor, was I going to mention for the 7th time that you are unable to separate your emotions from fact.

Okay, you tried to respond to the four points that I put before you, for that I give you credit. But, you failed on all four and for that you have genuinely lost this debate…by a wide margin. In fact, the judges are now crying for you

[ZEB]

[quote]smh_23 wrote:
On surrounding oneself with good and experienced people:

When I was 16, I applied for a summer job at an exclusive adventure camp out west.

The manager interviewed me over the phone and then in person.

She called me a week later to tell me that I’d done well, but a guy years older than I, with lots of experience at various similar organizations (and with lots of relevant certifications) had been too good to pass up.

In other words, she decided to surround herself with the best-qualified employees.

This was undoubtedly the right thing to do. It was undoubtedly a good move. And yet there is nothing particularly impressive about it. Or maybe there is, in which case I suggest that he who is impressed should get out more.[/quote]

Keep going you only have to reverse yourself on three more points to concede completely.

[thunderbolt23]

Kim Kardashian has made millions of dollars, even starting her own lines of business, and used realtive television to expand her holdings and public recognition. If Trump is any indicator, expect her to poll no less than third in the next poll.