Would You Buy a GM Vehicle?

[quote]MaddyD wrote:

you realize that toyota has a plant in Texas and Kentucky and I think alabama right?
then theres west virgina and mexico and indiana
a few in canada and one in mississippi

face it, toyota is a japanese company but they make just as many cars in north america employing americans as the “big 3” does

fact of the mater is they put out a better product so people buy it

[/quote]

It doesn’t hurt that foreign auto manufacturers have magazines such as Car and Driver swinging from their junk. On numerous occasions, these magazines have sung the praises of the exact same car with a foreign badge but ridiculed the domestic version of it.

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Mhatch wrote:
“The federal government will refrain from exercising its rights as a shareholder in all but the most fundamental corporate decisions.”

Now whether they hold to this or not, we will see.

this is not very reassuring to me. what is a fundemental corporate decision? we have already seen he has no problem making personnel decisions unilateraly.[/quote]

That I can’t answer, at least not Obama’s interpretation of it.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
GM is breaking contracts with thousands of dealers. Yet we should trust a GM warranty?

GM will be owned by the Feds and the UAW. Should we trust the quality of the product?

The Feds broke solemn contractual bond agreements because there are more UAW voters, and they tend to vote the ‘right’ way.

“I will stop the motor of the world.” — John Galt[/quote]

I think people already didn’t trust the quality(rightfully so IMO), hence the position they and chrysler are in ATM. Seems as though over the past 30 or more years or so they tried to make profit by cutting corners upfront, selling inferior vehicles of poor quality, and now stand there wondering where all of their repeat customers went. Granted, they probably had ot cut those corners in the first place to be able to compete with foreign companies in part due to their oppressive labor contracts but…To answer your question, no I wouldn’t buy a vehicle from any american manufacturer as it stands now.

[quote]DUMP_TRUCK wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
GM is breaking contracts with thousands of dealers. Yet we should trust a GM warranty?

GM will be owned by the Feds and the UAW. Should we trust the quality of the product?

The Feds broke solemn contractual bond agreements because there are more UAW voters, and they tend to vote the ‘right’ way.

“I will stop the motor of the world.” — John Galt

I think people already didn’t trust the quality(rightfully so IMO), hence the position they and chrysler are in ATM. Seems as though over the past 30 or more years or so they tried to make profit by cutting corners upfront, selling inferior vehicles of poor quality, and now stand there wondering where all of their repeat customers went. Granted, they probably had ot cut those corners in the first place to be able to compete with foreign companies in part due to their oppressive labor contracts but…To answer your question, no I wouldn’t buy a vehicle from any american manufacturer as it stands now. [/quote]

Ahh, they had to cut corners just to maintain profitability. Why? We, as a nation, enacted labor laws that allow unions to hold their companies hostage. That is the only real reason I believe they should be bailed out or guided through bankruptcy. Get GM in court, shred UAW’s labor contracts, and then get them out. If they fail again after that then let another company buy GM.

[quote]Mhatch wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:

Obama had nothing to do with inflated pay rates for union workers, shit sucking under performing brands, and generally shit sucking vehicles except the Corvette. We should have let that fucker die, put it in a history book, and mourned its death for about 5 minutes and move on.

Will you feel the same way, when Ford finally hemorrhages through it’s cash reserves, it acquired through mortgaging everything it possibly could a few years ago?[/quote]

Well of course not, but Ford would have to being doing the same stupid ass mistakes GM has been doing since the late 80s. Putting out a shit sucking, stabbing, underpowered vehicles touted as better than the rest. If Ford was going under and I had the means I would go out and do my part and pick up an 09 F350 Crew Cab long box FX4. Every Ford guy worth his salt would go out and do his part.

There are several cars I like from GM. The Cadillac CTS ,CTS-V, Corvette (all models especially the ZR1), Pontiac Solstice/ Saturn Sky, Cobalt SS, and the Camaro SS.

Get them while their hot. After uncle Sam gets done with them, there will be nothing but shit left. GM is going to be a permanent government program like welfare.
You want to fuck up a business, put the government in charge of it.

My understanding is that Ford and Chevy trucks are good, it’s the cars with the bad rep. GM really screwed themselves by building throw away cars for so long. By the time they wised up, it was too late…

[quote]adamhum wrote:
My understanding is that Ford and Chevy trucks are good, it’s the cars with the bad rep. GM really screwed themselves by building throw away cars for so long. By the time they wised up, it was too late…[/quote]

There are/were quite a few good GM cars. Pontiac Grand Prix and Bonnevilles with the 3.8 were pretty bullet proof. I also had Buick Park Avenue Ultra with a supercharged 3.8 that was actually a really nice road car.

I would take a Grand Prix GTP or Bonneville SSEI over a Camry, Accord, or Maxima. I chose the Park Avenue Ultra over the Avalon. I have no idea how newer models are compared to the one I ones had. I’ve been driving german cars for a few years now.

I love the wife’s Denali. I was going to trade my 530xi in for a Denali pick-up until I finally had it with the UAW.

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
Mhatch wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:

Obama had nothing to do with inflated pay rates for union workers, shit sucking under performing brands, and generally shit sucking vehicles except the Corvette. We should have let that fucker die, put it in a history book, and mourned its death for about 5 minutes and move on.

Will you feel the same way, when Ford finally hemorrhages through it’s cash reserves, it acquired through mortgaging everything it possibly could a few years ago?

Well of course not, but Ford would have to being doing the same stupid ass mistakes GM has been doing since the late 80s. Putting out a shit sucking, stabbing, underpowered vehicles touted as better than the rest. If Ford was going under and I had the means I would go out and do my part and pick up an 09 F350 Crew Cab long box FX4. Every Ford guy worth his salt would go out and do his part.[/quote]

Every time you mention trucks you bring up diesels and almost disregard gas engines. Do you believe most americans need a heavy duty truck? I doubt most people with any type of heavy duty truck will ever tow half of what the trucks are capable of towing. With that said GM’s gas engines V8s are easily on par with Ford’s gas V8s.

[quote]Mhatch wrote:

Ahh, they had to cut corners just to maintain profitability. Why? We, as a nation, enacted labor laws that allow unions to hold their companies hostage. That is the only real reason I believe they should be bailed out or guided through bankruptcy. Get GM in court, shred UAW’s labor contracts, and then get them out. If they fail again after that then let another company buy GM.
[/quote]

This is so often neglected.

It has to be a fact that for many jobs at GM, were there a free market there would have been folk lined up to take various unskilled and low-skilled positions at $10 an hour, $20 an hour etc according to the skill level required.

But GM could not hire them at such a mutually-agreeable pay. There were people who would have wanted to take it – been very glad to have it – and a company that would have been very happy to pay that, but oh no.

GM management certainly made mistakes, but the reality is that the UAW had obtained, thanks to the laws, the automaker’s testicles decades ago and has had them in the lockbox ever since. UAW required, at threat of immediately destroying the companies if they did not comply, contracts that could be fulfilled long-term only with maintained high market share and an ever-expanding market. Said UAW contracts made it impossible to offer pricing allowing maintenance of such high market share. As market share dwindled, yet benefits (including for vast numbers of employees no longer working) remained locked in according to assumptions of what would be possible to pay that no longer held, the problem became exponentially worse.

Exactly how downsizing GM is going to aid in paying for the legacy costs, I have no idea. I am pretty sure no one does. Personally I don’t think there’s even an intent: instead the intent is to create a crisis demanding that the Government assume health care costs, nationally.

In other words that the taxpayer assume all these legacy costs. Perhaps not just health but underfunded pensions (as with the automakers), too.

And that’s another point: UAW agreed to these underfunded pensions plans.

Suppose I work for you and you offer me say $40K per year annual retirement. But I refuse and say I will not take this, though that’s all you can pay. But we work it out – you won’t put in enough money each year to fully fund the $80K/year pension I demand, but you trust that the business will grow enough that after all those years roll by, the money will be there to pay it. I agree to this underfunded pension plan. You agree to it in good faith.

But when all those years roll by, it turns out that you no longer have 48% market share. In fact you’re down to operating one push cart on the sidewalk.

Am I going to get $80K per year retirement from you? Nope, it doesn’t exist. Either I agree to less, despite the contract, or all you can do is go bankrupt and most likely not pay me a thin dime, if there are any secured creditors.

Oh wait a sec, I vote Democrat and give BIG money to Democrat politicians so screw the secured creditors! I come first!

Still ain’t happening though, it’s just a delay.

Unless of course the taxpayer gets nailed for my high-falutin’ pension for unskilled or low-skilled (in many cases, not all) labor. Which I obtained by virtue of being given the power to threaten the company with immediate destruction and to deny the company the right to hire others for mutually-agreeable pay. Hey, I’m union! They had no right to hire others for mutually agreeable pay and benefits!

I would not mind a Corvette Z06…

:slight_smile:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Exactly how downsizing GM is going to aid in paying for the legacy costs, I have no idea. I am pretty sure no one does. Personally I don’t think there’s even an intent: instead the intent is to create a crisis demanding that the Government assume health care costs, nationally.
[/quote]

Isn’t that what the 20 billion that GM owed to a trust fund supposed to cover?

[quote]Mhatch wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Exactly how downsizing GM is going to aid in paying for the legacy costs, I have no idea. I am pretty sure no one does. Personally I don’t think there’s even an intent: instead the intent is to create a crisis demanding that the Government assume health care costs, nationally.

Isn’t that what the 20 billion that GM owed to a trust fund supposed to cover?[/quote]

GM’s legacy costs are far beyond that. I don’t have the exact figure but it’s enormous.

The pension and health plans were not anything like fully-funded-as-they-went.

You can run a plan where for each worker, as he works this year, you invest $X and that will enable paying the promised future retirement and health benefits.

Problem was, the demanded benefits were such that that would have been completely impossible. So some amount went in each year concurrent with the employees working, but the remainder relied on future earnings hopefully being able to pay the huge amounts.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Mhatch wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Exactly how downsizing GM is going to aid in paying for the legacy costs, I have no idea. I am pretty sure no one does. Personally I don’t think there’s even an intent: instead the intent is to create a crisis demanding that the Government assume health care costs, nationally.

Isn’t that what the 20 billion that GM owed to a trust fund supposed to cover?

GM’s legacy costs are far beyond that. I don’t have the exact figure but it’s enormous.

The pension and health plans were not anything like fully-funded-as-they-went.

You can run a plan where for each worker, as he works this year, you invest $X and that will enable paying the promised future retirement and health benefits.

Problem was, the demanded benefits were such that that would have been completely impossible. So some amount went in each year concurrent with the employees working, but the remainder relied on future earnings hopefully being able to pay the huge amounts.[/quote]

Are talking about the auto industry or Social Security?/sarcasm

Actually before hitting the Submit button I did have a closing line saying this was like Social Security, but decided it would muddle the post and so deleted it.

But yes, it’s the same principle. A plan that will work long term if and only if the proportion of the retired to the employed stays about the same or decreases.

That is not the case for the Detroit automakers and not the case for Social Security, either.

It will become even less true with a downsized GM.

There just ain’t no damn way. Legacy health-care costs alone accounted for something like $1500 per vehicle as of recently. What will it go to per vehicle when downsizing to producing yet fewer vehicles?

What, the consumer will pay $2500 or $3000 more for the GM brand name?

GM is not in a position where the profits, excluding legacy costs, can be so fat that that sort of legacy cost can be accomodated. Can’t happen.

It’s not that the money shouldn’t be paid (if GM had it), or that it’s a matter of not wanting to and trying to weasel out. It’s a matter of can’t be paid.

Except perhaps, if the Savior makes the taxpayers pick up the tab. I fear this may be the case.

[quote]Mhatch wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:
Mhatch wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:

Obama had nothing to do with inflated pay rates for union workers, shit sucking under performing brands, and generally shit sucking vehicles except the Corvette. We should have let that fucker die, put it in a history book, and mourned its death for about 5 minutes and move on.

Will you feel the same way, when Ford finally hemorrhages through it’s cash reserves, it acquired through mortgaging everything it possibly could a few years ago?

Well of course not, but Ford would have to being doing the same stupid ass mistakes GM has been doing since the late 80s. Putting out a shit sucking, stabbing, underpowered vehicles touted as better than the rest. If Ford was going under and I had the means I would go out and do my part and pick up an 09 F350 Crew Cab long box FX4. Every Ford guy worth his salt would go out and do his part.

Every time you mention trucks you bring up diesels and almost disregard gas engines. Do you believe most americans need a heavy duty truck? I doubt most people with any type of heavy duty truck will ever tow half of what the trucks are capable of towing. With that said GM’s gas engines V8s are easily on par with Ford’s gas V8s.[/quote]

I’ve owned both. A V10 and a 7.3L diesel. I don’t believe that most Americans need a heavy duty truck. Most American’s need to loose some weight. GM does have powerful V8 powerplants. The 572 badboy comes to mind but the rest of the package blows donkey balls. Any V8 powered Silverado will bow before Ford’s 5.4 3 valver. The entire package is far superior to anything GM has ever put out. Break out the V10 and its not contest. The Ford will outpull, out perform, and out live any abortion and crime against humanity that GM puts out.

[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
Mhatch wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:
Mhatch wrote:
Growing_Boy wrote:

Obama had nothing to do with inflated pay rates for union workers, shit sucking under performing brands, and generally shit sucking vehicles except the Corvette. We should have let that fucker die, put it in a history book, and mourned its death for about 5 minutes and move on.

Will you feel the same way, when Ford finally hemorrhages through it’s cash reserves, it acquired through mortgaging everything it possibly could a few years ago?

Well of course not, but Ford would have to being doing the same stupid ass mistakes GM has been doing since the late 80s. Putting out a shit sucking, stabbing, underpowered vehicles touted as better than the rest. If Ford was going under and I had the means I would go out and do my part and pick up an 09 F350 Crew Cab long box FX4. Every Ford guy worth his salt would go out and do his part.

Every time you mention trucks you bring up diesels and almost disregard gas engines. Do you believe most americans need a heavy duty truck? I doubt most people with any type of heavy duty truck will ever tow half of what the trucks are capable of towing. With that said GM’s gas engines V8s are easily on par with Ford’s gas V8s.

I’ve owned both. A V10 and a 7.3L diesel. I don’t believe that most Americans need a heavy duty truck. Most American’s need to loose some weight. GM does have powerful V8 powerplants. The 572 badboy comes to mind but the rest of the package blows donkey balls. Any V8 powered Silverado will bow before Ford’s 5.4 3 valver. The entire package is far superior to anything GM has ever put out. Break out the V10 and its not contest. The Ford will outpull, out perform, and out live any abortion and crime against humanity that GM puts out.
[/quote]

What year and model trucks are you talking about? The 6.2l GM is 400hp/400ftlbs tq. That topsa anything ford puts in the 150.

If you are talking about 3/4 ton and bigger Ford has the beefier gas engine in the 6.8l V10. I honestly don’t know enough about the new ford diesel to comment. Interior and compfort still go to GM (comparing a king ranch with a denali)

Getting back to the pension issue as of 12/31/08 they had $92.6B in pension plan assets. Projected obligations of $118.1B for a $25.5B underfunded status. They are also projecting healthcare cost to rise 8% each year which they have taken down from 9% per year 2 years ago. I’m not sure what type of returns on assets they are building into their projections but I am willing to bet they are overinflating that.

[quote]DB297 wrote:
Getting back to the pension issue as of 12/31/08 they had $92.6B in pension plan assets. Projected obligations of $118.1B for a $25.5B underfunded status. They are also projecting healthcare cost to rise 8% each year which they have taken down from 9% per year 2 years ago. I’m not sure what type of returns on assets they are building into their projections but I am willing to bet they are overinflating that. [/quote]

A cited per-vehicle cost for legacy healthcare being $1525 per vehicle, if they downsize – as the Obama Administration instructs – closing plants, turning away profitable dealerships, and eliminating Pontiac, etc, and on top of this costs go up 8% per year, clearly the per vehicle cost will go much higher yet.

What likelihood is there that per-vehicle profit (excluding legacy costs) will be so fat as to allow the inevitably resulting even greater per vehicle legacy costs without going still ever deeper into the red? (Assuming that the Obama Administration does not force the taxpayers to pay GM buyers several thousand dollars per vehicle sold, or to pay for healthcare for former GM employees.)

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/c/a/caeff-dilbert.gif

[quote]DB297 wrote:
Getting back to the pension issue as of 12/31/08 they had $92.6B in pension plan assets. Projected obligations of $118.1B for a $25.5B underfunded status. They are also projecting healthcare cost to rise 8% each year which they have taken down from 9% per year 2 years ago. I’m not sure what type of returns on assets they are building into their projections but I am willing to bet they are overinflating that. [/quote]