[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
If this happens, I will be the first to condemn it. The fact that Romney’s religion has not been an issue in this campaign is a wonderful thing.[/quote]
Agree more than you know. Anyone that is in the “religion shoudl be out of politics” camp, and then bashes romney for being mormon is an asshole and I see it a lot.
[/quote]
this is hilarious and good point.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]CornSprint wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]CornSprint wrote:
Yes, while Romney has been enthralling us with a complex and detailed plan for the future…
Both parties do it, have done it, and will continue to do it. For God’s sake, Obama did it in 2008 too![/quote]
Ok, you’re right. Beans has it correct about a general plan that allows you to function with 500 other people, but…Let’s grant that for the sake of argument Romney has not given us any more details than Obama did in 2008 (this is demonstrably false in my view, even if you are unsatisfied by the level of detail Romney has given in his general plan).
I look at two applicants for the position of CEO of a Fortune 100 company. 1) The person who currently sits at the board during meetings and 2) a person who is a potential replacement. I see that #1 was a community organizer, lawyer, and legislator before he sat in his current position. I see that when he was hired he gave no details on his economic plan and as a result of his mis-management the company has not grown and kept up with its competition. It is stagnating. I look at #2 and see that he previously started, controlled, grew, and ultimately owned his own company and made it very profitable. I see that he has 30 years of financial experience. I also see that he does not give any details on his economic plan to make the company successful and competitive. This reminds me of 4 years ago when I hired #1.
I see that #1 has had 4 years and done nothing. I see that #2 has not given me any detail whatsoever. I also see that #2 has a track record of success and a long long list of experience that #1 totally and utterly lacks.
If I am going to trust the economic health of the company to one of two people–neither of which have given me any details on what they plan to do–then the easy, absolute no brainer is to go with applicant #2 because 1) he has experience 2) he has experience 3) #1 already showed he was not up to the task and I have a lot of people riding on the choice I make 4) if 2 candidates avoid giving any details, then the only thing to go on is their track record and experience. #2 has it easily beaten.
I am not voting for a known failure. Period. So, while Romney may have not given any details whatsoever, I’d rather try my hand with something new than a known and quantified failure. After all, I’m not better off than I was and if the new guy can’t fix it either then I’m not any worse off than I would have been with the first guy, but I took a chance at fixing a problem he was clearly incapable of dealing with.[/quote]
Very good post Aragorn. A couple things to point out from my end though:
-Saying that experience and success in the private sector is a huge benefit when moving somebody into the position of CEO in the private sector is very valid, as this experience undoubtedly transfers nearly completely. However, as prior failed businessmen presidents have shown, this is not necessarily the case for the office of president.
-Current numbers are starting to move in the right direction, which makes me hesitant to call Obama a complete and abject failure. In a normal company, I would also imagine that the opposition faced in attempting to get anything done is considerably less than in politics. While arguing about effectiveness in leadership can be a talking point, this does make implementation of policy more difficult.
-For me, the office of president is about far more than just taking care of the economy. While I respect and understand how important that that task is, I also believe in the projections I have seen from a variety of sources that put America on the right track, regardless of whose policies go into effect. I am one who believes that the economy is too large a beast for one man to truly tame. On foreign policy, social policy, and essentially everything beyond the economy, I agree far more with Obama’s stances than Romney’s.
Again, all the points you brought up are why I understand why people will vote for Romney and why I will not lose too much sleep over economic policy that will come under him. It’s why I don’t demonize the other aisle-while there are some who I am sure are worth demonization, they are vastly outnumbered by those who have good, logical reasoning on their side (as you can see in this forum).
[/quote]
Ok. I agree on point #1–the potential carryover from business to business as from business to policy is not as great. However, I still feel very strongly that experience is INFINITELY more valuable than a complete lack of any experience. I could even have been pursuaded if Obama had been a 1-2 term senator and then a governor, then president. Even 1 full term of US Senate plus 1 additional term of Governorship would have prepared him for the kind of political moving he needed to be able to lead with. He had ZERO experience of ANY worthwhile kind and spent all his time campaigning for higher offices. This makes him utterly unqualified to me, business experience or no business experience.
Romney has both business and political experience. Both private and public sector. He is clearly and certainly a better bet from the experience angle AND the business angle.
#2–I’ll readily agree that political inertia and opposition can be much more intransigent than business inertia, both because of entrenched ideology and pork barrel/lobbyists and also because of the exponentially greater number of people involved in any decision than in a board room. However, I still hold that Obama failed, and I believe that if he is given another term the small moves you have seen will disappear based on his future policy choices.
#3–Readily agreed. Much,much more than the economy is at stake and I’ll never be one to deny that or try to minimize it. In almost any election I would agree with you but… I also believe that this election is a fulcrum point for our economic future as a nation, and that makes it much much much more important in my mind than it would have been as a campaign point in the last 3 presidencies. We are too far in debt, can’t pay it back, can’t pull in spending, can’t do much of anything. I won’t sacrifice it.
Socially I see no extremely disconcerting point on which you should be scared of Romney–I recognize you agree with Obama more, but Romney is not an ideologue–he’s practical as a politician and he successfully governed in Mass where they had a large Dem majority and rather intensely dislike the socially very conservative Republican candidates running for office. So as far as that goes I don’t think you need to worry too much, although he will likely make some decisions you disagree with, he won’t be scary and he won’t do tons of damage to liberal social issues like say Alan Keyes would try, or some Tea Party member.
On foreign policy I disagree with Obama, but if you like his decisions then yeah Romney is going to change policy for the worse in your view.[/quote]
I actually agree with a good amount of what you have said here-Romney himself does not scare me as an individual. Personally, I look to his MA record as more of an indicator of how he would be in office-which would be fine by me. Ryan is more of a concern but for the love of God, Biden has been VP and the world hasn’t imploded yet haha… My concern socially with Romney is the fact that there is so much riding on this election (Supreme Court and a potential takeover of both houses in the midterms if things do pick up economically as I suspect). I worry about any party having full control of the gov’t, but obviously, as a liberal, I am more worried about Reps since we are at odds most of the time.
I think that my belief in the forecasts I have seen that point to recovery regardless of who lives on Pennsylvania Ave is the major difference between us, which is fair.
[quote]CornSprint wrote:
I actually agree with a good amount of what you have said here-Romney himself does not scare me as an individual. Personally, I look to his MA record as more of an indicator of how he would be in office-which would be fine by me. Ryan is more of a concern but for the love of God, Biden has been VP and the world hasn’t imploded yet haha… My concern socially with Romney is the fact that there is so much riding on this election (Supreme Court and a potential takeover of both houses in the midterms if things do pick up economically as I suspect). I worry about any party having full control of the gov’t, but obviously, as a liberal, I am more worried about Reps since we are at odds most of the time.
I think that my belief in the forecasts I have seen that point to recovery regardless of who lives on Pennsylvania Ave is the major difference between us, which is fair.[/quote]
Lol at Biden…that’s a very valid point :). Ryan can’t end the world if Biden couldn’t haha
From your standpoint the midterms are a very valid concern, not so much from mine (I’m not registered as a Rep either tho 
). Although I do share your concern about total party control in two branches of the gov’t. I think I would rather have a president I can “trust” (used loosely of course lol) and take my chances with a mid-term washout than I would have two years under a president I don’t think is qualified or focused properly.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
And then you pull the “religion in government” issue. I don’t get it. Most of what I don’t get is the implication that you are scared that Romney is a hard line “religious nut”. [/quote]
Absolutely not. Romney is very moderate in his religious views - as are all of the Mormons that I know. You are right though that I’m extrapolating him to the entire party. As President he’s much less likely to toe the party line than the house and senate and will be much more moderate.
james
Donald Trump promises big news on Obama by Wednesday. Since it’s Donald Trump I just hope he doesn’t hurt Romney in the process. But I am curious.
Thoughts?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Donald Trump promises big news on Obama by Wednesday. Since it’s Donald Trump I just hope he doesn’t hurt Romney in the process. But I am curious.
Thoughts?[/quote]
The surprise will be if Trump actually has something besides a stupid publicity. Whatever it is won’t hurt Romney. Seriously, can we make this the last election cycle where anybody pays this guy any mind?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Donald Trump promises big news on Obama by Wednesday. Since it’s Donald Trump I just hope he doesn’t hurt Romney in the process. But I am curious.
Thoughts?[/quote]
Trump is pretty motivated, but Trump is also about drawing attention to Trump, and gets too immersed in hype. I predict it’s at best something curious, and not at all important.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Donald Trump promises big news on Obama by Wednesday. Since it’s Donald Trump I just hope he doesn’t hurt Romney in the process. But I am curious.
Thoughts?[/quote]
The surprise will be if Trump actually has something besides a stupid publicity. Whatever it is won’t hurt Romney. Seriously, can we make this the last election cycle where anybody pays this guy any mind?
[/quote]
That would be nice but I doubt it will happen. Trump has inserted himself into the past several Presidential elections. And he’s just young enough and wealthy enough to keep on doing it.
Which is really a shame in my opinion. But at least he’s against Obama this time around.
Guys I hope his big announcement has nothing to do with Obama’s birth certificate…(eye roll) My gosh he’s not that dumb is he?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Donald Trump promises big news on Obama by Wednesday. Since it’s Donald Trump I just hope he doesn’t hurt Romney in the process. But I am curious.
Thoughts?[/quote]
The surprise will be if Trump actually has something besides a stupid publicity. Whatever it is won’t hurt Romney. Seriously, can we make this the last election cycle where anybody pays this guy any mind?
[/quote]
That would be nice but I doubt it will happen. Trump has inserted himself into the past several Presidential elections. And he’s just young enough and wealthy enough to keep on doing it.
Which is really a shame in my opinion. But at least he’s against Obama this time around.
Guys I hope his big announcement has nothing to do with Obama’s birth certificate…(eye roll) My gosh he’s not that dumb is he?[/quote]
Perhaps he’s moved on to something else. I very much doubt that it’s something remotely close to significant.
Does Trump have a new season of The Apprentice on the way or something? I have to say, as a marketing strategy, the guy knows how to get his ugly mug in the news at the right time.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Donald Trump promises big news on Obama by Wednesday. Since it’s Donald Trump I just hope he doesn’t hurt Romney in the process. But I am curious.
Thoughts?[/quote]
The surprise will be if Trump actually has something besides a stupid publicity. Whatever it is won’t hurt Romney. Seriously, can we make this the last election cycle where anybody pays this guy any mind?
[/quote]
That would be nice but I doubt it will happen. Trump has inserted himself into the past several Presidential elections. And he’s just young enough and wealthy enough to keep on doing it.
Which is really a shame in my opinion. But at least he’s against Obama this time around.
Guys I hope his big announcement has nothing to do with Obama’s birth certificate…(eye roll) My gosh he’s not that dumb is he?[/quote]
Perhaps he’s moved on to something else. I very much doubt that it’s something remotely close to significant.
Does Trump have a new season of The Apprentice on the way or something? I have to say, as a marketing strategy, the guy knows how to get his ugly mug in the news at the right time.[/quote]
Pretty much what I was thinking.
Look, guys:
Rather you feel the same way or not; and whether or not you hate him (the President) or not;
There are a lot of people who Love the President and feel like he helped the Country avoid a flat out Depression.
If Trump comes out with something that seems like there is more “piling-on” the President, it will not benefit Romney in any way. Much like with Clinton, there may be disappointment in the President if there is some big “October Surprise”…but this will not translate into some benefit for Romney.
Mufasa
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Look, guys:
Rather you feel the same way or not; and whether or not you hate him (the President) or not;
There are a lot of people who Love the President and feel like he helped the Country avoid a flat out Depression.
If Trump comes out with something that seems like there is more “piling-on” the President, it will not benefit Romney in any way. Much like with Clinton, there may be disappointment in the President if there is some big “October Surprise”…but this will not translate into some benefit for Romney.
Mufasa
[/quote]
Agreed. At this point, Mitt Romney’s criticism of the President is the most effective and frankly the only one that Republicans should be concerned about at all. The recovery has been extremely slow; this is the natural point of attack.
Any reversion to the coarser and much uglier lines of attack will, in my mind, actually help President Obama. Republicans should be the ones who are nervous about this. The last thing a Romney supporter should be looking for is a way to get the conversation spiraling back down toward birtherism and “he’s a Muslim!” The “conservatives are racist” line is bullshit as a generality, but these fringe conspiracy theorists by and large do tend to be pretty damn racist and, even if you don’t accept that, repulsive in a number of other ways. The last thing a thoughtful voter looking to put a pragmatic businesslike guy in the White House should want to do is to stand shoulder to shoulder with these idiots.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Look, guys:
Rather you feel the same way or not; and whether or not you hate him (the President) or not;
There are a lot of people who Love the President and feel like he helped the Country avoid a flat out Depression.
If Trump comes out with something that seems like there is more “piling-on” the President, it will not benefit Romney in any way. Much like with Clinton, there may be disappointment in the President if there is some big “October Surprise”…but this will not translate into some benefit for Romney.
Mufasa
[/quote]
All Romney has to do is distance himself from Trump’s statement and it won’t hurt him. People by now know who the players are and what to expect from each.
Obama is running from his economic record, and claiming he had so much to deal with that he actually did a good job.
Romney is the business person who is claiming he can create jobs and is trying to look Presidential.
Trump is trying to promote…Trump.
There is no Romney Trump connection unless Romney wants there to be. And from what I’ve seen of Romney he’s far too smart to align himself with Donald Trump EVER but especially with only two weeks to go before the most important day of his life.
But I can’t help remaining curious about what Trump has up his sleeve.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
But I can’t help remaining curious about what Trump has up his sleeve. [/quote]
Two rumors I’ve seen so far:
Neither of these move the needle, and only further make Trump look like a dolt.
Man, I’ll be glad when this damn election is over…
Can you guys even BEGIN to imagine how Romney and the President must feel about now?
Mufasa
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Man, I’ll be glad when this damn election is over…
Can you guys even BEGIN to imagine how Romney and the President must feel about now?
Mufasa[/quote]
Like election day could not come sooner, come what may. Elections are sort of exciting through the summer and early fall, but man am I tired of this.
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Man, I’ll be glad when this damn election is over…
Can you guys even BEGIN to imagine how Romney and the President must feel about now?
Mufasa[/quote]
Like election day could not come sooner, come what may. Elections are sort of exciting through the summer and early fall, but man am I tired of this.[/quote]
I was just thinking about how depressed I’m going to be when the election isn’t around to follow anymore…
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Man, I’ll be glad when this damn election is over…
Can you guys even BEGIN to imagine how Romney and the President must feel about now?
Mufasa[/quote]
Like election day could not come sooner, come what may. Elections are sort of exciting through the summer and early fall, but man am I tired of this.[/quote]
I was just thinking about how depressed I’m going to be when the election isn’t around to follow anymore… [/quote]
haha, really? Damn. I feel drained just from following the stuff, I literally could not imagine how Obama and Romney must feel after traveling the country saying the same thing again and again and again. And then some more. And then kissing a few hundred asses, and then saying that same stuff from before again.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I was just thinking about how depressed I’m going to be when the election isn’t around to follow anymore… [/quote]
Then we’ll have a new president for you to hate…lol…
james
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Man, I’ll be glad when this damn election is over…
Can you guys even BEGIN to imagine how Romney and the President must feel about now?
Mufasa[/quote]
Like election day could not come sooner, come what may. Elections are sort of exciting through the summer and early fall, but man am I tired of this.[/quote]
I was just thinking about how depressed I’m going to be when the election isn’t around to follow anymore… [/quote]
haha, really? Damn. I feel drained just from following the stuff, I literally could not imagine how Obama and Romney must feel after traveling the country saying the same thing again and again and again. And then some more. And then kissing a few hundred asses, and then saying that same stuff from before again.
[/quote]
October - December are slow for me at work. Reading about the market, pricing and tax planning for old people gets stale after awhile.
This election is like human comedy at its finest.