Will the Economy Get Better?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

[quote]hedo wrote:
It will one day but not anytime soon. The economy has no catalyst and a complete lack of leadership. The country is waking up to the fact that Obama is a fool with no experience in actually running anything. He surrounded himself with people who have already participated in damaging the economy and elevated them to higher authority.

Business will not hire and expand in that environment. It’s too risky and the payoff for taking that risk doesn’t make it worthwhile. That effect cascades throughout the economy.

As long as the Dems get crushed in the Nov elections you will see some optimism. Beyond that if it looks like Obama even has a shot in 2012 the economy will continue to tread water, if not contract.[/quote]

This guy cannot make a single post on any topic without telling you how much Obama sucks and the “Dems are gonna lose in the coming elections”.

Man, you are comical.[/quote]

Well, there is truth in humor. Maybe that’s why you find it comical?[/quote]

I don’t give a damn about Reps vs Dems. No intelligent person should. American politics is for imbeciles. Obama is not the devil. Neither was Bush. Politicians aren’t the root of the problem. Neither are businessmen, or lobbyists. The problem is and always has been the filthy masses. Democracy is a terrible idea. Nearly everything about the western system of government is cowardly and essentially feminine in nature. That is the real problem which hardly anyone addresses. We have a quasi-autocracy already but are too cowardly to call it such.

The only hope and salvation would be to oppress stupid people (i.e. most of the public) to the furthest extent possible through authoritation forms of government. Unfortunately, despite the paranoid rantings of the far right and left, that is unlikely to actually come about soon. The status quo is much more profitable.

If you’d like to see the real problem addressed by someone who knows what they’re talking about, I direct you to the following:

http://www.heretical.com/sheppard/hflttww.html

22

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

[quote]hedo wrote:
It will one day but not anytime soon. The economy has no catalyst and a complete lack of leadership. The country is waking up to the fact that Obama is a fool with no experience in actually running anything. He surrounded himself with people who have already participated in damaging the economy and elevated them to higher authority.

Business will not hire and expand in that environment. It’s too risky and the payoff for taking that risk doesn’t make it worthwhile. That effect cascades throughout the economy.

As long as the Dems get crushed in the Nov elections you will see some optimism. Beyond that if it looks like Obama even has a shot in 2012 the economy will continue to tread water, if not contract.[/quote]

This guy cannot make a single post on any topic without telling you how much Obama sucks and the “Dems are gonna lose in the coming elections”.

Man, you are comical.[/quote]

The simple minded are easily amused.

You have and continue to be a reliable Obamacon and at times manical in your support. You’re hardly in a position to point fingers.

The thread is about the economy and if it will get better. My opinion is no it will not under present leadership.

Try articulating a reason why a reasonable businessman would invest scarce captial expanding into an uncertain future being steered by inept leadership. Better yet put some money up and do try it yourself.

23

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

[quote]hedo wrote:
It will one day but not anytime soon. The economy has no catalyst and a complete lack of leadership. The country is waking up to the fact that Obama is a fool with no experience in actually running anything. He surrounded himself with people who have already participated in damaging the economy and elevated them to higher authority.

Business will not hire and expand in that environment. It’s too risky and the payoff for taking that risk doesn’t make it worthwhile. That effect cascades throughout the economy.

As long as the Dems get crushed in the Nov elections you will see some optimism. Beyond that if it looks like Obama even has a shot in 2012 the economy will continue to tread water, if not contract.[/quote]

This guy cannot make a single post on any topic without telling you how much Obama sucks and the “Dems are gonna lose in the coming elections”.

Man, you are comical.[/quote]

Well, there is truth in humor. Maybe that’s why you find it comical?[/quote]

I don’t give a damn about Reps vs Dems. No intelligent person should. American politics is for imbeciles. Obama is not the devil. Neither was Bush. Politicians aren’t the root of the problem. Neither are businessmen, or lobbyists. The problem is and always has been the filthy masses. Democracy is a terrible idea. Nearly everything about the western system of government is cowardly and essentially feminine in nature. That is the real problem which hardly anyone addresses. We have a quasi-autocracy already but are too cowardly to call it such.

The only hope and salvation would be to oppress stupid people (i.e. most of the public) to the furthest extent possible through authoritation forms of government. Unfortunately, despite the paranoid rantings of the far right and left, that is unlikely to actually come about soon. The status quo is much more profitable.

If you’d like to see the real problem addressed by someone who knows what they’re talking about, I direct you to the following:

http://www.heretical.com/sheppard/hflttww.html[/quote]

Except that even with authoritarianism we cannot guarantee that the rulers are not themselves imbeciles – or at best not ignorant.

Military might has historically been the only qualifier for those who desire “power”. It is this military might that has ultimately slowed progress down and yet those in “control” are so ignorant – either willfully or as a result of being educated by the status quo – that they will continue down the same path of destruction.

No, the best solution is allowing every person sovereignty over his or her own life so that the unwashed masses’ ignorance cannot effect the rest of us. This way those same people are free to sprint head on into oblivion. Problem solved.

24

[quote]hedo wrote:

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

[quote]hedo wrote:
It will one day but not anytime soon. The economy has no catalyst and a complete lack of leadership. The country is waking up to the fact that Obama is a fool with no experience in actually running anything. He surrounded himself with people who have already participated in damaging the economy and elevated them to higher authority.

Business will not hire and expand in that environment. It’s too risky and the payoff for taking that risk doesn’t make it worthwhile. That effect cascades throughout the economy.

As long as the Dems get crushed in the Nov elections you will see some optimism. Beyond that if it looks like Obama even has a shot in 2012 the economy will continue to tread water, if not contract.[/quote]

This guy cannot make a single post on any topic without telling you how much Obama sucks and the “Dems are gonna lose in the coming elections”.

Man, you are comical.[/quote]

The simple minded are easily amused.

You have and continue to be a reliable Obamacon and at times manical in your support. You’re hardly in a position to point fingers.

The thread is about the economy and if it will get better. My opinion is no it will not under present leadership.

Try articulating a reason why a reasonable businessman would invest scarce captial expanding into an uncertain future being steered by inept leadership. Better yet put some money up and do try it yourself.[/quote]
What are you talking about? I’m well known as T-Nation’s resident Nazi/neo-fascist/neo-monarchist.

Obama is a black African leading a country founded by white Protestants. I don’t dislike him for that reason alone but suffice to say, I’m not too enthusiastic about him, either. You must have confused me with someone else.

What I will say is that Obama, with his Harvard law degree and rhetorical abilities, is a more worthy human specimen than the types of populist scumbags I spoke of in my last post. But this is true of all politicians as a class. Politicians are the cream of the crop in any. Voters are scrapings on an outhouse bucket.

Obama did not ruin the economy, Hedo. He simply continued Bush’s policies in a largely unbroken chain. The name of the game is bailout. Read G. Edward Griffin’s “The Creature From Jekyll Island”. The “game” has been played the same way for decades and through multiple admins.

25

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Except that even with authoritarianism we cannot guarantee that the rulers are not themselves imbeciles – or at best not ignorant.[/quote]
I disagree. I think one’s place on the food chain is an excellent guarantee of competence. Likely the best there is.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Military might has historically been the only qualifier for those who desire “power”. It is this military might that has ultimately slowed progress down and yet those in “control” are so ignorant – either willfully or as a result of being educated by the status quo – that they will continue down the same path of destruction.[/quote]
The whole trouble is, getting anything done requires a dictatorship and rigid hierarchy. Simply look at the internal structure of successful “capitalist” corporations. People are naturally petty, divisive and quarrelsome. Throughout history, great rulers have needed to subjugate and unite warring factions in order to turn them into great nations.

What other “natural” and successful (by most peoples’ accounts, especially conservatives) example of “dictatorship” do we have? The family, of course!

Rejection of authoritarianism is a liberal philosophy in the worst sense of the word. It is born of rebellion: Rebellion against nature, against family, against the social order that is necessary for all societies and people to function.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
No, the best solution is allowing every person sovereignty over his or her own life so that the unwashed masses’ ignorance cannot effect the rest of us. This way those same people are free to sprint head on into oblivion. Problem solved.[/quote]
Individual sovereignty ala the colonial American ideal which derives from the British legal system and theoretical framework of natural law is a wonderful system of government which is wholly inappicable to uncivilized and barbaric peoples.

You’re wont to disagree, but non-Northern European populations do not have the capacity to live under such a form of government without undermining its foundations. That’s why it never developed in places outside of Europe.

Arabians and Africans, for instance, are primeval savages whose “civilizations” got left behind in the 12th century, if not earlier.

This is a very rich area of discussion. We can pursue it further, if you’d like. The race question is absolutely essential to any proper discussion of politics.

26

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

[quote]hedo wrote:
It will one day but not anytime soon. The economy has no catalyst and a complete lack of leadership. The country is waking up to the fact that Obama is a fool with no experience in actually running anything. He surrounded himself with people who have already participated in damaging the economy and elevated them to higher authority.

Business will not hire and expand in that environment. It’s too risky and the payoff for taking that risk doesn’t make it worthwhile. That effect cascades throughout the economy.

As long as the Dems get crushed in the Nov elections you will see some optimism. Beyond that if it looks like Obama even has a shot in 2012 the economy will continue to tread water, if not contract.[/quote]

This guy cannot make a single post on any topic without telling you how much Obama sucks and the “Dems are gonna lose in the coming elections”.

Man, you are comical.[/quote]

Well, there is truth in humor. Maybe that’s why you find it comical?[/quote]

I don’t give a damn about Reps vs Dems. No intelligent person should. American politics is for imbeciles. Obama is not the devil. Neither was Bush. Politicians aren’t the root of the problem. Neither are businessmen, or lobbyists. The problem is and always has been the filthy masses. Democracy is a terrible idea. Nearly everything about the western system of government is cowardly and essentially feminine in nature. That is the real problem which hardly anyone addresses. We have a quasi-autocracy already but are too cowardly to call it such.

The only hope and salvation would be to oppress stupid people (i.e. most of the public) to the furthest extent possible through authoritation forms of government. Unfortunately, despite the paranoid rantings of the far right and left, that is unlikely to actually come about soon. The status quo is much more profitable.

If you’d like to see the real problem addressed by someone who knows what they’re talking about, I direct you to the following:

http://www.heretical.com/sheppard/hflttww.html[/quote]

Well this is an interesting position.

Soooo you WANT to be oppressed by an authoritarian form of government?

27

[quote]JPCleary wrote:
Soooo you WANT to be oppressed by an authoritarian form of government?
[/quote]
No. Like everyone else, I want to be part of the ruling class. The difference is, I actually have what it takes to get there.

There is a difference between speaking of what is best for one’s self and what is best for a nation.

One question is empirical. The other is bullshitical.

Politics is the art of bullshit. It’s founded on the conception that people can improve their own lot by indirectly stealing from others.

As Bastiat wrote, “The state is that great fictitious entity by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else.”

This is true even under a libertarian system of government. Everyone always wants something from someone else, even if what they want is simply to be left alone.

The free man asks for nothing and takes whatever he wants, “rights” be damned.

There is a “free market” for power and violence just like there is a free market for software.

Microsoft is the market leader in PC software and they reap the benefits of their position.
The US government is the worldwide leader in the market for violence and it, too, reaps the benefit of that position.

Both are products of the “sum of human interactions”, also known as the free market.

Any philosophy which attempts to claim that coercion doesn’t exist in the free market is an attempt to subvert the market. Violence and coercion are commodities just like wheat and iron.

If you can put a price on power, then you can reconcile the state with free market dogmatism. Unfortunately, most libertarians never get this far in their thinking. That’s why I’m no longer a libertarian.

28

Money is how men deal with one another by trade. When money is destroyed (inflation) men resort to force to deal with one another.

This implies that the totalitarianism we drifted toward in the 20th century will come to full fruition in this century.

Such a development is also portended by the declining scale of weaponry. As the ability for anyone with a grudge to cause damage increases exponentially, only complete surveillance and total control allows society to exist.

It is NOT a rosy future.

29

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Except that even with authoritarianism we cannot guarantee that the rulers are not themselves imbeciles – or at best not ignorant.[/quote]
I disagree. I think one’s place on the food chain is an excellent guarantee of competence. Likely the best there is.[/quote]
Even within the same species of the food chain there is variation. Hence survival usually goes to the fittest among them.

In non human animals might makes right, for sure, but what makes humans more “competent” as a species is our unique ability to cooperate with each other – including those we do not necessarily identify with culturally, for example.

Even the idea of authoritarian government requires a cooperative effort from the masses or else those whom would rule would never get to that point.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Military might has historically been the only qualifier for those who desire “power”. It is this military might that has ultimately slowed progress down and yet those in “control” are so ignorant – either willfully or as a result of being educated by the status quo – that they will continue down the same path of destruction.[/quote]
The whole trouble is, getting anything done requires a dictatorship and rigid hierarchy. Simply look at the internal structure of successful “capitalist” corporations. People are naturally petty, divisive and quarrelsome. Throughout history, great rulers have needed to subjugate and unite warring factions in order to turn them into great nations.

What other “natural” and successful (by most peoples’ accounts, especially conservatives) example of “dictatorship” do we have? The family, of course!

Rejection of authoritarianism is a liberal philosophy in the worst sense of the word. It is born of rebellion: Rebellion against nature, against family, against the social order that is necessary for all societies and people to function. [/quote]
I agree about family but it is because I agree that family is so important to society that I do not want a government to ever interfere with it. All it takes is one mistake by a ruler and the integrity of the family unit can be changed forever.

For example, look how disastrous welfare and entitlements have been to the family unit. Call me a cynic but I do not have faith that an all-knowing parental figure can exist for an entire country to make such decisions for every single one.

Nor do I think anything necessarily needs to be done to strengthen the family unit. What needs to be done (or even can be done) with regard to strengthening the family unit will be done in the market place by voluntary society. Cell phones, for example, are a wonderful creation that help parents keep an electronic leash on their children at all times. I have a hard time believing an overlord could come up with something that “magical”.

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
No, the best solution is allowing every person sovereignty over his or her own life so that the unwashed masses’ ignorance cannot effect the rest of us. This way those same people are free to sprint head on into oblivion. Problem solved.[/quote]

Individual sovereignty ala the colonial American ideal which derives from the British legal system and theoretical framework of natural law is a wonderful system of government which is wholly inappicable to uncivilized and barbaric peoples.

You’re wont to disagree, but non-Northern European populations do not have the capacity to live under such a form of government without undermining its foundations. That’s why it never developed in places outside of Europe.

Arabians and Africans, for instance, are primeval savages whose “civilizations” got left behind in the 12th century, if not earlier.

This is a very rich area of discussion. We can pursue it further, if you’d like. The race question is absolutely essential to any proper discussion of politics.[/quote]
As far as I can see, in where it counts, Africans and Arabians are capable of trade with “Westerners”. Maybe they don’t have what it take to become “westernized” (I don’t think that is true). If they cannot then who cares what “they” do with regard to “their” own determination. Surely it isn’t worth the trouble to worry about if that is the case.

30

Nominal Prospect wrote:
No. Like everyone else, I want to be part of the ruling class. The difference is, I actually have what it takes to get there.
…
[/quote]

If I had a nickle for every member of the filthy, unwashed masses who thought this…

Kid, it’s easier to seize power under our system than it would be any under any authoritarian system. If you’re an irrelevant schlub now, you’d have no chance to become “somebody” under an authoritarian regime.

31

I bet 70% of PWI won’t read this:

US stimulus added up to 2.1 mln jobs in Q4 2009-CBO

1:45pm EST

  • CBO says stimulus boosted economy by up to 3.5 pct

  • It lowered jobless rate by up to 2.1 pct

WASHINGTON, Feb 23 (Reuters) - The massive stimulus package passed last year to blunt the impact of the worst U.S. recession in 70 years created up to 2.1 million jobs in the last three months of 2009, the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office said on Tuesday.

The package boosted the economy by up to 3.5 percent and lowered the unemployment rate by up to 2.1 percent during that period, CBO said.

The report comes as President Barack Obama and his fellow Democrats are pushing further measures to bring down the 9.7 percent unemployment rate before the November congressional elections.

The $787 billion price tag of the package, officially called the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, has prompted a growing backlash from voters worried about record budget deficits. Republicans have labeled the package a failure, though economists on the left and right say it helped ward off a depression.

CBO’s new report closely resembles its initial estimates from March 2009, shortly after Obama signed the bill into law.

Though the economy performed more poorly than predicted, that was not due to the ineffectiveness of the stimulus package, CBO said.

“In CBO’s judgment, that outcome reflects greater-than-projected weakness in the underlying economy rather than lower-than-expected effects” of the stimulus, the research office said.

The package is likely to have the greatest impact this year, according to CBO. It is expected to boost GDP by between 1.4 percent and 4 percent and bring down the unemployment rate by between 0.7 percent and 1.8 percent in 2010, higher figures than last year when many of its programs were being set up. The impact is expected to trail off over the next two years.

Direct purchasing of goods and services by the federal government and states have been the most effective provision of the act, CBO said. Among the least effective: a tax credit for first-time homebuyers and a tax cut for the wealthy.

Since the start of the recession in December 2007, 8.4 million jobs have been lost. Though the economy started growing again last year, CBO chief Doug Elmendorf said at a congressional hearing that any recovery was likely to be slow.

(Reporting by Andy Sullivan, editing by Eric Beech)

33

How much you want to bet 90% of those jobs are service sector jobs? Guess what happens when the stimulus runs out.

35

Ah yes, let’s create more future liabilities that do not produce anything of value.

36

http://geraldcelentechannel.blogspot.com/

no, it will not. Check out Gerald Celente’s track record for predictions…