WikiLeaks...Thoughts?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
AC, I think you’re forgetting that it’s ‘insiders’ that are sending him the info. Afaiu, these ‘insiders’ see wrong doing and are acting as ‘whistleblowers’.

I don’t think any military personnel would be emailing Assange WMD specs.

I would also say that in recent history, the US gov’t hasn’t been acting in the best interests of it’s citizens, but in the best interests of the ‘political elite’.

If a candidate had ‘promise to keep secrets from you’ as their playform, they would have your vote?

This is actually very ironic when you look at the Patriot Act that they jammed down America’s throat.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too forever.[/quote]

My problem with your analogy is the State Dept., for the most part, is not elected officials. Had the WikiLeaks been concerned with Congressional negotiations with Lobbyists then that would have moved us towards transparency with those we elected and greater accountability. However, in this case, it is not the actions of individuals that are being reviewed with an election that can ‘correct’ things upcoming, but rather issues to national security that pre-date and will continue long after the current administration.

62

[quote]kilpaba wrote:
I have some reservations about the leak, but let me pose the question to angry chicken:

How would you feel if a foreign power had a military installation in the United States, or in an immediately neighboring country, and said country was trying to dictate the policy of the United States via economic sanctions or straight out military coercion?

As a proud American and fierce libertarian I would have a huge problem with this. Why do we find it so absurd for other countries in that situation to be wary/upset with us?[/quote]

Not AC, but I would argue those who cannot see why other countries might not like what the US does have not paid the least bit of attention to history or the present. They are out their in droves, I understand all to well.

Please bear in mind that one of the thing that gets academics tarred as liberals is that is discussing the very fact that from an non-US perspective it is easy to see why some countries dislike us.

63

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
AC, I think you’re forgetting that it’s ‘insiders’ that are sending him the info. Afaiu, these ‘insiders’ see wrong doing and are acting as ‘whistleblowers’.

I don’t think any military personnel would be emailing Assange WMD specs.

I would also say that in recent history, the US gov’t hasn’t been acting in the best interests of it’s citizens, but in the best interests of the ‘political elite’.

If a candidate had ‘promise to keep secrets from you’ as their playform, they would have your vote?

This is actually very ironic when you look at the Patriot Act that they jammed down America’s throat.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too forever.[/quote]

WE elected that “political elite”. Also, this has nothing to do with the Patriot Act (which I think is bullshit, BTW) And where is the “whistleblowing”? This isn’t Big Tobacco convincing the public that cigarettes are good for you, it’s diplomatic cables of the fucking state department. It’s not a company, it’s a country. Diplomacy between countries is based on TRUST. That trust has been damaged. If I were a foreign country and I had sensitive information, I would be VERY hesitant to share it with the US now, lest my country’s involvement was disclosed and my source compromised.

64

A few thoughts:

  1. I think this is a sign of the times. When a guy with a flashdrive can walk out with all these files, there is bound to be someone who will publish them, be it wikileaks or another.

  2. While wikileaks has done some good things (eg. the Kenyan police killings thing), I don’t know that this State Dept leak was one of them. Countries’ leaders don’t need to know what other countries’ leaders are saying about them to us. You don’t tell your boss the same “reports” you tell your wife. And your boss doesn’t need to hear what you told your wife. Likewise, Iran doesn’t need to know what we told Russia, nor does some of the now public “name calling” help. Some information should be kept secret. (I’m not through with my coffee…so I’m not sure if that analogy made any sense).

  3. It has been interesting as hell reading this stuff. Petraeus making secret deals, name calling, information about various world leaders and others opinions of them… makes for good conversations.

66

[quote]kilpaba wrote:
I have some reservations about the leak, but let me pose the question to angry chicken:

How would you feel if a foreign power had a military installation in the United States, or in an immediately neighboring country, and said country was trying to dictate the policy of the United States via economic sanctions or straight out military coercion?

As a proud American and fierce libertarian I would have a huge problem with this. Why do we find it so absurd for other countries in that situation to be wary/upset with us?[/quote]

I will be the FIRST to say that I think the foreign policy of the United States has been completely fucked up for the last 50 or so years. We have thrown our weight around and stepped on more toes than I could even remember. This isn’t ABOUT that!

Confusing the issue and justifying treason and stealing confidential cables from the United States government by disagreeing with our foreign policy is just not logical. If anything, those that find our foreign policy distasteful should be the MOST opposed to our secrets being leaked - WE NEED ALL THE FRIENDS WE CAN GET! We’ve made SO many enemies over the years that we need to make certain that our allies trust us enough to give us a heads up if something were about to happen.

There’s people out there from countries that I haven’t even heard of that would LOVE to do us harm. Fucking with our security won’t change that, it will only INCREASE the likelihood of something bad happening. We are MANY generations away from repairing the damage that our failed foreign policy has created. Democracy is NOT the same thing as “Transparency”.

67

I like to look at History to put things in perspective.

Let’s take a look at Greece ~490 BC - Shortly after the first failed Persian invasion (Xirxes, son of Darius was pissed off that the Athenians helped the Ionians with their revolt and swore to burn Athens to the ground). In the aftermath of this significant routing of Persian forces, many Greeks were in denial about the strength of the Pesian Empire. In their arrogance, they were flying high, like Icarus, close to the sun. Had it not been for the efforts of one Politician/General, then DEMOCRACY may have died in it’s infancy.

To make a long story short, Themistocles LIED to the people of Athens. He decieved them. He had intelligence (as in DATA) and more experience than many of the aristocratic class did not posses (He had the Intelligence and was forward thinking enough to apply it). He told them that they needed to build ships and drastically increase the scope of the navy to defeat the Aeginetans which was threatening their trade, when in fact, he wanted the navy built to withstand the inevitable Persian assault he knew would be coming. But building a navy ain’t free - he had to convince the legislature to divert the profits from a recently discovered silver mine at Laurium to pay for it. The money was diverted and the ships were built. On a deception, but one that was made by a man who had a better understanding of the threat than the democracy that controlled the budget.

Fast forward a few years to the second Persian invasion (Themistocles was right, imagine that) in 481 BC. We’ve all seen the movie 300, right? The Battle at Thermopylae? That movie depicts what was on the ground, but doesn’t give the full story about why the Persians HAD to fight the Spartans on that pass. Why didn’t they just sail around? Because Themistocles and his new Athenian NAVY were there and prevented them! It was Themistocles’ idea by the way, not Leonidas’. So they fought for three days, the Persians found the mountain pass and were able to out-flank the Spartans, Blah Blah Blah - you all saw the movie. But in doing so, He was able to save Athens by evacuating everyone to Troezan and having the able bodied men on the ships, so when the Persians finally arrived at Athens (which Themistocles was under NO illusion that the Persians would not eventually make it there) they sacked and burned and empty city. The CITIZENS (and founders of democracy) were safe.

The point I’m trying to make is that in a DEMOCRACY, not everyone is in a position to have all the facts, combined with the perspective of actually having BEEN there and witnessing things first hand. Do you think the Athenians would have granted Themistocles the money to build the navy if he had told them it was to EVACUATE them from an invasion that hadn’t even started yet? NO! That’s not how people work! The people then (much like the people TODAY) were in DENIAL. Even so, back then I would have have trusted the voting citizens more than the ignorant masses that vote in the United States today. What many of you “idealists” forget is that MOST people are fucking stupid. I don’t WANT them to have access to sensitive information! Then next thing you know, they’ll be making a reality television show about it. The concept of transparency simply doesn’t work in a democracy. People aren’t equipped to handle it, and it would allow our enemies to easily formulate a strategy and bring us down. It’s not like North Korea or Iran are being transparent with US! It’s a foolish idea.

68

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
How about elected officials acting responsibly? not being two-faced?[/quote]
What world do you live in?

This is reality.

69

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
This is 2010 and the world is a big bad place. There are nuclear armed countries that DON’T LIKE US for whatever reason. Perhaps they are jealous of our relative prosperity (historically) or perhaps we bombed them during a peace keeping mission in the past. Whatever. It isn’t Mr. Rogers fucking neighborhood.
[/quote]

I was really only taking on this point, but I can see that you didn’t probably mean that you weren’t sure why people hated us. Apologies for reading into anything, but it still amazes me how many people are legitimately baffled by why other countries hate us and rely on such ridiculous notions that they “hate our freedom” rather than “we are scaring the shit out of them with our neo-empire in their back yard”.

I still stand by the notion that if we would get the fuck out of everyone’s affairs so many of the problems we are dealing with now simply would not exist. This would let us then focus on REAL threats to the US rather than all the self-created blowback related threats we effectively initiate.

70

[quote]kilpaba wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
This is 2010 and the world is a big bad place. There are nuclear armed countries that DON’T LIKE US for whatever reason. Perhaps they are jealous of our relative prosperity (historically) or perhaps we bombed them during a peace keeping mission in the past. Whatever. It isn’t Mr. Rogers fucking neighborhood.
[/quote]

I was really only taking on this point, but I can see that you didn’t probably mean that you weren’t sure why people hated us. Apologies for reading into anything, but it still amazes me how many people are legitimately baffled by why other countries hate us and rely on such ridiculous notions that they “hate our freedom” rather than “we are scaring the shit out of them with our neo-empire in their back yard”.

I still stand by the notion that if we would get the fuck out of everyone’s affairs so many of the problems we are dealing with now simply would not exist. This would let us then focus on REAL threats to the US rather than all the self-created blowback related threats we effectively initiate. [/quote]

As long as we continue to support Israel politically, militarily and monetarily we will have enemies. Right or wrong, they aren’t the most popular folks on the planet. Our alliance with them GUARANTEES that we will have enemies. I don’t see that alliance going away anytime soon. Until Israel can stand on it’s own and no longer requires the United States to defend it, feed it military technology and money, we will continue to meddle - by necessity. I’m not trying to open THAT can of worms, just stating a fact.

If you think that’s going to change anytime soon, I’ve got some ocean front property in Kansas to sell you…

71

If the US were to move out of everyone’s backyard, then they wouldn’t be able to export anymore of their war.

72

[quote]Chushin wrote:
I’m just glad that he’s being completely objective by airing the dirty laundry of China, Russia and other major countries, too.

Oh wait…[/quote]

Why does everyone seem to think that they only target the US? They definitely seem to leak more information relating to Western governments & companies. This is probably partly due to the fact that for obvious reasons it’s much harder to find whistleblowers in China, Russia, Iran etc.

Personally I think that retribution from the US will be the least of his worries.

In October 2010, Assange told a leading Moscow newspaper that “The Kremlin had better brace itself for a coming wave of WikiLeaks disclosures about Russia.”

73

Regular Gonzalez beat me to it. He leaks whatever he’s given. A lot of the current leaks actually paint the Middle East quite badly, and Israel in a good light, which you wouldn’t expect if he was all ‘Down With America’ etc

74

[quote]kilpaba wrote:
I have some reservations about the leak, but let me pose the question to angry chicken:

How would you feel if a foreign power had a military installation in the United States, or in an immediately neighboring country, and said country was trying to dictate the policy of the United States via economic sanctions or straight out military coercion?

As a proud American and fierce libertarian I would have a huge problem with this. Why do we find it so absurd for other countries in that situation to be wary/upset with us?[/quote]

Post more

75

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I like to look at History to put things in perspective.

Let’s take a look at Greece ~490 BC - Shortly after the first failed Persian invasion (Xirxes, son of Darius was pissed off that the Athenians helped the Ionians with their revolt and swore to burn Athens to the ground). In the aftermath of this significant routing of Persian forces, many Greeks were in denial about the strength of the Pesian Empire. In their arrogance, they were flying high, like Icarus, close to the sun. Had it not been for the efforts of one Politician/General, then DEMOCRACY may have died in it’s infancy.

To make a long story short, Themistocles LIED to the people of Athens. He decieved them. He had intelligence (as in DATA) and more experience than many of the aristocratic class did not posses (He had the Intelligence and was forward thinking enough to apply it). He told them that they needed to build ships and drastically increase the scope of the navy to defeat the Aeginetans which was threatening their trade, when in fact, he wanted the navy built to withstand the inevitable Persian assault he knew would be coming. But building a navy ain’t free - he had to convince the legislature to divert the profits from a recently discovered silver mine at Laurium to pay for it. The money was diverted and the ships were built. On a deception, but one that was made by a man who had a better understanding of the threat than the democracy that controlled the budget.

Fast forward a few years to the second Persian invasion (Themistocles was right, imagine that) in 481 BC. We’ve all seen the movie 300, right? The Battle at Thermopylae? That movie depicts what was on the ground, but doesn’t give the full story about why the Persians HAD to fight the Spartans on that pass. Why didn’t they just sail around? Because Themistocles and his new Athenian NAVY were there and prevented them! It was Themistocles’ idea by the way, not Leonidas’. So they fought for three days, the Persians found the mountain pass and were able to out-flank the Spartans, Blah Blah Blah - you all saw the movie. But in doing so, He was able to save Athens by evacuating everyone to Troezan and having the able bodied men on the ships, so when the Persians finally arrived at Athens (which Themistocles was under NO illusion that the Persians would not eventually make it there) they sacked and burned and empty city. The CITIZENS (and founders of democracy) were safe.

The point I’m trying to make is that in a DEMOCRACY, not everyone is in a position to have all the facts, combined with the perspective of actually having BEEN there and witnessing things first hand. Do you think the Athenians would have granted Themistocles the money to build the navy if he had told them it was to EVACUATE them from an invasion that hadn’t even started yet? NO! That’s not how people work! The people then (much like the people TODAY) were in DENIAL. Even so, back then I would have have trusted the voting citizens more than the ignorant masses that vote in the United States today. What many of you “idealists” forget is that MOST people are fucking stupid. I don’t WANT them to have access to sensitive information! Then next thing you know, they’ll be making a reality television show about it. The concept of transparency simply doesn’t work in a democracy. People aren’t equipped to handle it, and it would allow our enemies to easily formulate a strategy and bring us down. It’s not like North Korea or Iran are being transparent with US! It’s a foolish idea.[/quote]

you continue to impress me

76

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
If the US were to move out of everyone’s backyard, then they wouldn’t be able to export anymore of their war.[/quote]

If a frog had wings, he wouldn’t bump his ass every time he jumps.

77

How can a democracy function without knowledge? How can I vote to elect the correct representatives if I don’t know what they are doing, if I don’t know what my tax dollars are doing?

The reason that United States has as many enemies as it does stems from building its sphere of influence around the globe; a bi-product of the Cold War era. How do we justify our vast presence around the world? Why would we have enemies if we were not a factor in their affairs? Do people concern themselves with the ants inside their house or the ants in the next county over?

78

By the way maybe this is a naive question, but what did Wiki gain from doing this?

Did they make money?

Did they make friends?

Did they somehow gain enough power to make money in the future?

Are they working for a terrorist organization?

I don’t understand their motivation, someone help me out.

79

[quote]Dijon wrote:
How can a democracy function without knowledge? How can I vote to elect the correct representatives if I don’t know what they are doing, if I don’t know what my tax dollars are doing?

The reason that United States has as many enemies as it does stems from building its sphere of influence around the globe; a bi-product of the Cold War era. How do we justify our vast presence around the world? Why would we have enemies if we were not a factor in their affairs? Do people concern themselves with the ants inside their house or the ants in the next county over?[/quote]

So I guess you think that if you saw a criminal stealing an old woman’s pocketbook, you should just keep walking because it’s none of your business, right? Even though you could prevent it an keep the old woman from being hurt and robbed? I think MOST of us here would have the testicular fortitude to stop it. Like it or not with POWER comes RESPONSIBILITY.

Unless you think IMPERIALISM and/or COLONIALISM is an acceptable alternative… But if it’s not OUR country, who gives a shit, right? (sarcasm)

Let’s take another look at history when we tried your “isolationist” policy. Shortly before WW2, the United States was minding it’s own business (just like you propose we do). Meanwhile, Germany invaded Poland, Italy invaded Albania, Japan invaded Manchuria and the Nazi regime started rounding up Jews. What did the US do? We slapped Japan with an oil embargo, but that’s about it. (it was this half-assed policy that triggered the attack on Pearl Harbor because at that time we supplied the Japanese with 80% of their oil - what did they THINK was going to happen?)

We didn’t get involved until the global situation had developed into such a clusterfuck that it couldn’t be ignored. As a result, it cost MORE American lives and MORE of our Treasure to rectify a situation that could have been nipped in the bud.

I would even go so far as to say that the GUILT that the Allies felt about standing by and allowing Hitler to segregate and commit genocide against the Jews played a LARGE part in the creation and support of Israel. And look at how THAT has affected our foreign policy…

Most of this “idealistic” and “pie in the sky” thinking has been tried before. Read a fucking history book. It doesn’t work. The United States gets involved with other countries because IT HAS THE POWER TO DO SO. If we didn’t, than these countries, like little children, would burn the house down.

80

[quote]Dijon wrote:
How can a democracy function without knowledge? How can I vote to elect the correct representatives if I don’t know what they are doing, if I don’t know what my tax dollars are doing?
[/quote]

We have PLENTY of knowledge about the broad strokes our country makes. Every bill that is signed and voted on, has YOUR elected representative’s record attached to it. Either they voted Yes, No, or didn’t show. If you don’t like what your representative is doing, vote him/her out of office. That is how a representative democracy works. You have to TRUST the people you elect to do a good job. That’s why they put their RECORD and moral behavior under the microscope.

People always bitch about how “their tax dollars are spent”. Once the tax is levied, IT’S NOT YOUR MONEY ANYMORE! It’s the STATE’S money, to with what it sees fit according to the laws and statutes that are currently in place as decided by duly elected representatives. If it is the current law or policy, why would you expect them NOT to spent “your” money on it? If you don’t like the law or policy in question, run for office and CHANGE it. But don’t bitch about it!