Why's Your Religion Better?

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Not a religion, but I’ll defend my position.

Broadly, I am agnostic; if I’m forced to choose, I tend toward theism in its most general manifestation. This is, in my view, the most rational conclusion that can be reached on the basis of the evidence available to me:

I do not believe that anything accurate has ever been said or inferred about God, if He/She/It exists, through revelation. Personal experience and history overwhelmingly suggest to me that men are and have always been inclined to concoct myths which explain their existence and the circumstances of their lives (and, oftentimes, why they, their tribe, their race, or their country is entitled to hegemony). It is through this prism that I understand all religion and, as a consequence, I afford no more credibility to Christianity and Islam than I do to Native American folklore and Scientology.

Simply put–and this is not intended to offend anyone–I do not believe that a snake has talked to a human being at any time in the history of all that exists, and it would take substantially more evidence than the fact that it’s written in an old book for me to even begin to consider such a claim to be worth investigating, let alone believing. The same can be said of Noah and his ark, and the sun frozen in the sky at Joshua’s request–any miracle that can be found in Scripture. And if I find that a book purported to be non-fiction is full of what I’ve deemed to be primitive nonsense, I discount it entirely as a reliable source of information (though I continue to admire many of Jesus’ teachings, in much the same way that I admire Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations).

I furthermore believe that if people were not exposed to religion in the credulous pre-dawn of their youth, the vast majority of the (educated) world would not allow such fantastical superstitions to enjoy immunity from the skepticism they deserve.

That takes care of what I don’t believe. I do believe in general terms that the theoretical reductionists are correct and that physics sits atop a hierarchy of the natural sciences. Its explanatory power is unfathomably far-reaching and its progeny–the tangible power to control our environment–is a testament to its merit if not its infallibility. However, it fails to explain the single most fundamental question that can be asked: how does anything exist? The Big Bang? An explosion is a culmination of a series of events, a meeting of extant fuel and extant fire. An explosion does not explain existence, so far as this layman who hasn’t taken a science course since high school can tell.

So: how does anything exist? This question has not been answered to my satisfaction, and I suspect that it won’t be, at least not before the sun explodes and our little experiment on this rock comes to its fiery conclusion.

That said, the cosmological and from-contingency proofs of the existence of “God” are compelling. I’m not qualified to proclaim teleology impossible. I don’t pretend to know with absolute certainty that my flawed capacity to reason can grasp these things in their entirety, but if I had to choose between an infinite regress and a “divine” first cause, I’d choose the latter.

But do I know anything about this first cause? Do I know what it looks like, what it wants, what it does in its spare time? Do I know its opinion of homosexuality or sex outside of marriage? Do I know that it has opinions about the comings and goings of infinitely-small man at all? Do I suspect that the quivering ball of goo between my ears–smaller in dimension and less durable than a soccer ball–is capable of evaluating the character of an architect whose designs are measured in lightyears?

No.[/quote]

The sun is not going to explode. It doesn’t have sufficient mass to ever go super nova.

[quote]storey420 wrote:
and Queue Tirib…[/quote]No point.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

Plus, it’s a hard road and the entire world has a fasination with killing you, which, I can advise sucks.[/quote]

I’ve actually noticed this, and I haven’t converted yet.

Happy Chanuka, BTW.

[quote]ranengin wrote:

The sun is not going to explode. It doesn’t have sufficient mass to ever go super nova.
[/quote]

Enter its red giant phase, expand, and consume or scorch the earth just didn’t seem as poetic.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Enter its red giant phase, expand, and consume or scorch the earth [/quote]

This can’t possibly be true either, the bible doesn’t say this! :wink:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:
and Queue Tirib…[/quote]No point.
[/quote]

WHAT!!! There is a religious discussion and Trib is going to abstain??

Quick somebody travel to Detroit and make sure he isn’t sick!!

Just kidding bud :slight_smile:

[quote]pat wrote:
I think a deeper look would reveal things aren’t as crazy as they seem on the surface. A lot of times it’s more about what the account is saying rather than what the words on the page literally say. That’s not to say that all of scripture is metaphorical or symbolic or it’s all literal. There are variations based on audience, context, purpose.
I am not saying you should do one thing or another, I am mere saying that things aren’t always what they appear on the surface.
After all trying to explain divine reality to a species that has limited capacity to understand it is difficult. It’s like trying to become a dog and explain what football is. It makes sense to us, it’s foreign to a dog.
[/quote]

I understand that the Bible is worth a hell of a lot more than the miracles. And I do find wisdom in it when I read it. That said, natural skepticism precludes me from accepting it as anything more than the accumulated fables–some of them elegant and some of them “true” in the same way that Hamlet is “true” but not by any means in the same way that a peer-reviewed scientific study is “true”–of men just like you and I. I have literally no reason to think that the Judeo-Christian creation myth is any more credible than those concocted by the American Indians or the Chinese. I will not believe that any man or woman has ever experienced a miracle until I’m presented with detailed and logical evidence to the contrary. I–just like every sane man and woman who has ever lived on this planet–have observed that the human body is denser than water and consequently cannot walk atop its surface. That a man claimed to have seen otherwise in a text written thousands of years ago will never be sufficient evidence to overcome the intense skepticism with which I approach such claims. From there and in hundreds or thousands of similar instances the credibility of the Bible as an authoritative source of information deteriorates and collapses.

The consequent result is a book full of things that simply aren’t true in my best estimate. And if something is not literally true then I absolutely will not use it as the foundation of my life and worldview.

That said, I understand and respect your point of view. I don’t believe Christians are “crazy” (well, some of them. But not nearly all) and I don’t look down on people who believe the things I highlighted in my post. My Godfather was the smartest man I’ve ever known–I mean smart as in Rhodes scholar, President of a college, composer, professor of neuroanatomy, spoke like 9 languages including Latin and Menominee, appointed by G.W. Bush to be Chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts–and he became a devout believer toward the end of his life.

@smh23, H factor

2 things.

  1. Regarding questions where it would seem the guy asked is “losing” no matter what he answers… like “Who created God?” , “Could God create a god like Himself?” , “Could God create a rock (so heavy and large) that He cannot move or lift?”

The answer to all those questions is No. But then you’d be like “Isn’t God able to do all things?” Then I’d say Yes. How come?! In reality, there is no contradiction. Could God create “nothing” or “the impossible”? No, because that’s irrational. If He creates “nothing” then He didn’t create anything in the first place.

That’s the issue with the above questions. God can’t create another god because a God can’t be created. If God could create another god, then who created the God who created the god? And we could go on forever. That’s irrationality. The question is not valid.

Same with the rock. The power of God isn’t connected with irrationalities. God has Complete Power. Even though the power of God is unlimited and absolute, it must be within of what is rationally possible. This doesn’t mean God is incapable, it means God’s power is complete. Not being able to lift such rock is incapable, but since such rock doesn’t rationally exist (because if it does, then the rock has attributes that are greater than it’s Creator, which is impossible), so this just asserts God’s complete power.

Another way or describing it is: God is incapable of forgetting (or being unaware of something). This doesn’t mean that God is lacking, it just asserts that God has complete knowledge.

  1. Regarding miracles, generally, they are not meant for guys like you to “believe” them. It just doesn’t make sense for me to expect that if you don’t even believe a Creator exists.

You might be like: Then how come some provide them as proof that God exists? Yes, they are undeniable proof that God exists for the ones that (eye)witnessed them. For us, they show us the power of God and the lessons and wisdom behind such events. So yes, believing in God (and the scripture you are reading from) are pre-reqs to believing such stories. They are not metaphorical.

A miracle is something that happens that opposes the natural course of events.

Take the flood for instance. Naturally, it just “doesn’t happen”. There must be a trigger (God’s order). But here is the thing. The event itself is not “irrational” or “impossible”. It is impossible for us to picture how it happens (which makes it a miracle, it is supposed to be “unbelievable” and overwhelming). Then again, it is not irrational. I mean can you not imagine the Earth flooded with water. Rain non-stop, all the springs, seas, rivers on this earth overflowing and exploding = the flood. A flooded Earth at one point in time COULD exist. It is not something outside the limits of rationality.

So it doesn’t really make sense to me that you consider it a “disbelief”. Nobody expects you to believe such thing. It isn’t really that important (at this stage). But something like believing in God, that’s a different story. You are expected and you have the means to reach a conclusion that satisfies you. You might reach the truth now, in 50 years, or never. But you shouldn’t be satisfied with “Well, it’s a possibility.” Not saying you are, but yea. If you have questions, keep looking for answers that will satisfy you (heart and mind). Sometimes thing make sense, but they just don’t sit well in the heart (ex: constant doubts).

@pat. I disagree. You should be able to reach “God exists” and “this religion is true” through sound logic and reason. Both.

Hopefully words haven’t failed me in delivering my point in a respectful and logical manner. I could re-clarify some unclear points, just ask.

I am a Muslim.

P.S. Please don’t quote and “dissect” every word of this post. It is really annoying to reply to. Just gather the overall message and reply or ask more questions. Thank you.

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:
and Queue Tirib…[/quote]No point.
[/quote]

WHAT!!! There is a religious discussion and Trib is going to abstain??

Quick somebody travel to Detroit and make sure he isn’t sick!!

Just kidding bud :)[/quote]I know you’re jist goofin. Maybe at some point if I feel led I’ll pop in here, but I have plenty goin on already and this is the same as 80 threads we have already with a different name. Besides, my dear old friend Pat’s colossal cluelessness regarding Christianity and the bible is too vast for me to keep up with.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:
Not a believer (agnostic technically leaning towards agnostic-atheist), but excited to see where the conversation goes (for reals). [/quote]

Why is this better?
I don’t think you should sit on the sidelines and wait to level criticism on others, you obviously think this is the way to go, why?[/quote]

Pat, I think you are one of the nicest posters here (I have never once wondered if you have dead prostitutes chained in your basement or thought that i better be well armed were I to meet you in a dark ally) but just because someone is interested in the discussion doesn’t mean they have a dog (or in this case, god) in the fight.

And it also doesn’t mean they are leveling criticism at those who do.

I know nothing about many subjects, it doesn’t mean that I’m not interested to learn.

[quote]Mind wrote:
You should be able to reach “God exists” and “this religion is true” through sound logic and reason. Both.

[/quote]

I appreciate the thoughtful post.

The section I’ve quoted here is what I disagree with. It is possibly true that logical proofs can lead us to the existence of an uncaused, non-contingent entity we call “God.” I’ve said myself that I find some of the classical proofs very compelling.

But the notion that “sound logic and reasoning” can lead us to the proposition that “this religion is true” is utterly false. The particulars of Christianity or Judaism or Islam are in no way evidentially or logically inevitable. As I’ve noted on these boards before, to contradict this sentiment would be to deny the role of faith in religion.

If you disagree, I would challenge you to prove me wrong by showing how logic and reasoning propel one specific set of religious tenets to inevitable primacy.

[quote]Legionary wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Not a religion, but I’ll defend my position.

Broadly, I am agnostic; if I’m forced to choose, I tend toward theism in its most general manifestation. This is, in my view, the most rational conclusion that can be reached on the basis of the evidence available to me:

I do not believe that anything accurate has ever been said or inferred about God, if He/She/It exists, through revelation. Personal experience and history overwhelmingly suggest to me that men are and have always been inclined to concoct myths which explain their existence and the circumstances of their lives (and, oftentimes, why they, their tribe, their race, or their country is entitled to hegemony). It is through this prism that I understand all religion and, as a consequence, I afford no more credibility to Christianity and Islam than I do to Native American folklore and Scientology.

Simply put–and this is not intended to offend anyone–I do not believe that a snake has talked to a human being at any time in the history of all that exists, and it would take substantially more evidence than the fact that it’s written in an old book for me to even begin to consider such a claim to be worth investigating, let alone believing. The same can be said of Noah and his ark, and the sun frozen in the sky at Joshua’s request–any miracle that can be found in Scripture. And if I find that a book purported to be non-fiction is full of what I’ve deemed to be primitive nonsense, I discount it entirely as a reliable source of information (though I continue to admire many of Jesus’ teachings, in much the same way that I admire Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations).

I furthermore believe that if people were not exposed to religion in the credulous pre-dawn of their youth, the vast majority of the (educated) world would not allow such fantastical superstitions to enjoy immunity from the skepticism they deserve.

That takes care of what I don’t believe. I do believe in general terms that the theoretical reductionists are correct and that physics sits atop a hierarchy of the natural sciences. Its explanatory power is unfathomably far-reaching and its progeny–the tangible power to control our environment–is a testament to its merit if not its infallibility. However, it fails to explain the single most fundamental question that can be asked: how does anything exist? The Big Bang? An explosion is a culmination of a series of events, a meeting of extant fuel and extant fire. An explosion does not explain existence, so far as this layman who hasn’t taken a science course since high school can tell.

So: how does anything exist? This question has not been answered to my satisfaction, and I suspect that it won’t be, at least not before the sun explodes and our little experiment on this rock comes to its fiery conclusion.

That said, the cosmological and from-contingency proofs of the existence of “God” are compelling. I’m not qualified to proclaim teleology impossible. I don’t pretend to know with absolute certainty that my flawed capacity to reason can grasp these things in their entirety, but if I had to choose between an infinite regress and a “divine” first cause, I’d choose the latter.

But do I know anything about this first cause? Do I know what it looks like, what it wants, what it does in its spare time? Do I know its opinion of homosexuality or sex outside of marriage? Do I know that it has opinions about the comings and goings of infinitely-small man at all? Do I suspect that the quivering ball of goo between my ears–smaller in dimension and less durable than a soccer ball–is capable of evaluating the character of an architect whose designs are measured in lightyears?

No.[/quote]

This describes my beliefs almost perfectly.[/quote]

Not bad for any summary of a non-believer even if they don’t realize what they do or don’t believe in. I’ll take the infinite regress though, as finite beings we can’t be expected to comprehend it, therefore it remains as a possibility.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:<<< as finite beings we can’t be expected to comprehend it, therefore it remains as a possibility.[/quote]Aw man, you could almost draw me in with this one.
EDT: From another thread where the OP quotes Ephesians 2:8-9:
@ butler244: Of course that’s absolutely true, but that’s not what he’s asking. I also didn’t mean to diss your thread. If it sounded that way I apologize. I didn’t even look at your opening post to be honest. There really are a million controversial Christianity threads and I just assumed by the way the question was phrased that you were just another God hater. It looks like that was my irresponsible mistake. At least I hope so.
EDIT: I just read your first post in your thread. Very good indeed. This "but I believe the biblical perspective highlights man’s inability to reach out to be saved. Salvation is not earned, but is a free gift. " is especially promising. I’m gonna put this over there too.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
I’ll take the infinite regress though, as finite beings we can’t be expected to comprehend it, therefore it remains as a possibility.[/quote]

Agreed. I find the proofs compelling, but the possibility that our minds are simply incapable of comprehending the realities–or, indeed, of even asking the right questions–is of course extant.

Pat: I think you’re making this a little more convenient. You make some good points, but kind of lose me when you say stuff like this HAS to be the answer. No other way could be possible. We all must come to THIS conclusion.

That is the conclusion you have came to and you feel good about it. That is great and all, but why hasn’t everyone else came to this same conclusion? If it’s as obvious and completely foolproof as you make it seem why so many questions?

Did some reading and hope you would respond to this which is hopefully an argument you’re making similar to Craig’s (if not well disregard then).

"Aside from the fact that an actual infinite trajectory is possible, there are other obvious problems with Craig’s argument for god’s existence. Craig, in defiance of the Occam’s Razor principle which states that the simplest logical explanation for a phenomenon is the most probable, postulates an infinite, extratemporal god as his solution to the “impossibility” of an infinite universe. The same “problem” exists with the postulation of a god with an infinite lifespan as exists with the postulation of a universe with an absolute lifespan, the only difference is that there is empirical evidence that suggests that the universal series of causes and effects is infinite, while there is no empirical evidence that a god even exists. Throughout human history, every entity ever detected has had a physical cause; therefore, it is logical to assume that all events have a physical cause, and illogical to assume that there could be an uncaused entity. Therefore, it is more logical to believe that the universe is comprised of an infinite series of physical causes and effects than to believe that it is the finite creation of an infinite creator.

Indeed, the postulation of god as the creator of the universe creates more uncertainty than it eliminates. If god exists, who created god? God could not have created itself; it is logically impossible for a being to create itself, because creation of the nonevolutionary sort requires intellect and intentionality, and if god evolved, then it is not really god as humans define the concept: the infinite, omnipotent, creator of all existence. It would be impossible for god to create its intellect or intentionality ex nihilo. If god were created by another entity, Super-God perhaps, then not only does god cease to meet our definition of “god,” but we need an explanation for the origins of Super-God, and the origins of his creator, and so on ad infinitum."

http://www.infidels.org/kiosk/article726.html

I haven’t read enough others to say, but it seems quite convenient to just come up with it HAS to be God, nothing else makes sense. This idea that there CAN’T be any other explanation is what stops me from going along. Forgive me if I’m twisting your position as it is not my intention.

Another site worth reading: http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/ash-againstcosmological.shtml

Again this is just from quick google searching, I’m learning as I go…but wouldn’t you say at least some pretty significant points are made to at least bring up the idea of questioning this obvious and most necessary belief.

@smh23

If I understood your post correctly. I think we are on the same page.

And yes, faith is the most important and the strongest part of religion.

“This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -(2) Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them, (3)” (Surat Al-Baqarah 2:2-3)

“Who believe in the unseen” <<<< The first description of the believers in the Quran.

Regarding your challenge, I don’t really understand how to approach it. The topic of discussion must be a bit more specific to be honest.

I am not disagreeing, but an example of such tenants would be helpful.

[quote]Mind wrote:

“Who believe in the unseen” <<<< The first description of the believers in the Quran.
[/quote]

I’m not sure if this helps, but I suppose I meant that if we are to accept that logic and reason can indeed lead to an unequivocal and exclusive affirmation of a particular set of religious tenets (in your case, Islam), then that logic and reasoning would have to be presented.

I have flipped through the Quran before (usually while pulling a febrile all-nighter in college, unfortunately) but I hadn’t noticed this particular phrase. Thank you for reproducing it–and I think it settles my “challenge” as well.

@smh23

I think it would be extremely challenging to form a “complete-out-of-doubt-non-visual” proof that would convince EVERYONE. If it was possible, Noah (peace be upon him) would have convinced his son to be one of the believers or Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) would have convinced his Uncle to follow him. And those were Prophets with visual miracles. So imagine us…

There is no “magic” formula or something like that.

The matter is really personal in the sense that “What do you want?” Are you content with your life? Are you honest with yourself? There are many factors that come into play. The biggest factor that’s very hard to break is arrogance. And I’m pretty sure you’ve experienced it personally in arguments or debates.

"It was narrated from ?Abd-Allaah ibn Mas?ood that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: ?No one who has an atom?s-weight of arrogance in his heart will enter Paradise.? A man said, ?O Messenger of Allah, what if a man likes his clothes and his shoes to look good?? He said, ?Allah is Beautiful and loves beauty. Arrogance means rejecting the truth and looking down on people.?

Narrated by Muslim, 91."

Frankly, some people just don’t like the truth, or don’t want to hear it. Some live for money, some live for women, some live just for the sake of what’s on his/her mind. In other words, slaves of temptation and desires. If God sent an angel they would tell you that’s magic and close their eyes and ears. You’ll ask him what’s the purpose of life? And he’ll laugh in your face. He’ll tell you I want to enjoy my life…“Life is too short.” EXACTLY. I really find a hard time giving life an intrinsic value just for the sake of it. Doesn’t seem right.

Anyways, the goal is not to “convince” or “force” people. The goal is to warn (send and explain the message). A man in his right mind would purify his heart and mind of distractions and truly seek knowledge and eventually (God willing) the truth.

The majority of people are not content, in my experience. They might lie and say they are happy, but that’s because of distractions. Many people have questions, doubts, anxieties, etc… and that’s why they look for religion. Some convince themselves they are following the truth, some claim they know, some feel they know…

To wrap it up, the best “case” I could provide is the Quran itself. Read it from cover to cover. You can look for errors, contradictions, challenge it, write a book like it, find a book like it, do whatever. If you aren’t convinced that it’s the word of God, then so be it.

“And that there is not for man except that [good] for which he strives”(Surah Al-Najm 53:39)

[/quote]

I would also note that Judaism is for Jewish people. It’s not for non-Jewish people.

The rest of you are subject to the Laws of Noah (as I am I, but the law of Noah is part of the overall Law).

Christianity, by most accounts, certainly comports with the laws of Noah, so it’s mostly fine for non-Jewish people, although the Chabad folks would argue that a Noahdic religion, untinged by Jewish heresey, would be better. Solid Judeo-ethics for the masses.

quote]

Unexpected thread to find in a BB forum, but nice to see, especially in these times of confusion.

Humbly, I would take issue with the idea that the Jewish faith is designed to be a “faith only for Jewish people” ~~~~ I think the promise of Abraham confirms this in that “Through you (Abraham), all nations will be blessed.” In fact, the gentiles are described as a ‘branch grafted into the tree.’

Paul indicates that the Law/ Torah’s purpose is to highlight the need for a savior ~ as no one is saved through the law, only condemned. Of course, in Christianity, you have the ultimate (read “final”) transfer of transgressions of the law from the people of God to the actual lamb for the sacrifice, that the Torah points to (this being Jesus’ crucifixion on the cross) ~ so once and for all, all sins are forgiven to those who seek forgiveness through the name of Jesus.

Further, Abraham and those who died before the crucifixion were saved based on their faith in the “coming sacrifice,” as was David, Solomon, etc. This of course is the dilemia for the post crucifixion member of the Jewish faith, as they have rejected the ‘sacrifice of God.’

Nevertheless, we all stand with Israel on the promise that they will one day be restored and the world blessed through them.

Courageous thread!

[quote]pat wrote:

You were taught some strange stuff. As a Christian you are to love your cousin and treat him with all the love and respect you could muster as a cousin, a brother. Further you are not to judge or condemn him.
People who commit atrocities in the name of God are blaspheming Him in the most profound way. You are not being a Christian, but violating the word and the heart of the word by doing so.

Why in the world would Gandhi be in hell? As a pious man who sacrificed everything to God in full humility, I don’t see how that’s possible, we certainly have no right to judge. There are fundamentalist nut-jobs who put forth such judgments. They also tend to be the kooks who incorrectly predict the end of the world every year. Don’t judge the religion by the lunatic fringe.
[/quote]

The thing is I don’t view it as a lunatic fringe. If this was one or two people I’d dismiss it, but it’s not fringe. If more people did the things you talk of I’d get on board with religion much quicker.

That said a SIGNIFICANT portion of people think my cousin is going to be tortured eternally in a lake of fire. This is one of the most nice, caring people in the entire world and has been for his entire life. I’m not sure I’ve met someone who actually DOES the teachings of Jesus as much as him. Loves everyone, helps the poor, volunteers, the world would be much better off if more people are like him. Many “Christians” pale in comparison when it comes to actually helping out their fellow man like he does. And as a non believer I’m fully aware I don’t come close either.

A few years ago in full tears he came out as gay. This wasn’t something he wanted to happen, he didn’t sit down one day and decide to be gay. I saw a completely embarrassed and saddened human finally admitting he thought differently than the rest of our family. Before this I didn’t really give a shit one way or the other about gays or anything to do with them. Hadn’t met a lot (have since then), pretty close minded, whatever. Not a few people, a WHOLE lot of people would argue passionately that he will burn for ALL ETERNITY in a lake of fire. Same thing about Gandhi. These aren’t fringe beliefs.

My cousin, Gandhi, ANYONE who doesn’t come to the same conclusion as these people or does something against what this God said will be punished for ALL ETERNITY in a lake of fire. This is not a fringe view. These brothers you speak of are coming to this conclusion saying they are the same as you and it doesn’t bother you at all?

I may not be able to square exactly WHAT I believe, but I can figure out what I DON’T believe real easy. And while one day I may come to the conclusion that we had to have a creator to come to existence I can’t ever see myself being ok with “worshipping” one if it’s the one so many on here in other places say WILL do these things.