[quote]forbes wrote:
I have a question for my fellow Christians that I do not want to start a whole new thread on.
Are the dead conscious or unconscious? This has large implications. Basically the question can be rephrased as : are we judged twice?
If one dies and faces judgment, and then is raised back from the dead upon Christ’s return, will he be judged again? Whats the purpose of 2 judgments?
However if one dies and remains unconscious (or “asleep”) until Christ’s return, then he is only judged once, which makes more sense.
Now we see in the NT that there are individuals who are conscious in heaven, like Moses, Elijah, the souls at the throne of God in Revelation etc. Paul even states that first comes death, then judgment. However Ecclesiastes 9:5 (and I believe the Psalms also) state: For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Obviously the living remember the dead, so the memory that is forgotten is of the one who died, implying no consciousness because scripture says we will recognize those who have passed away in heaven.
The only logical reason for theses apparent discrepancies is that God has allowed certain individuals of exceeding righteousness to enter heaven upon their death, and vice versa of the exceedingly wicked entering hell. But the vast majority of believers/unbelievers end up unconscious until the final judgment.
Thoughts? [/quote]
Great question, Forbes, and I wish I had a simple answer. Personally, I lean more toward the position you espouse above - there does not seem to be any purpose to the final judgment if people are already burning in hell already while awaiting that judgment. Talk about adding insult to injury - “hey, let’s take those suffering spirits, put them in bodies, and throw them back into suffering.” The entire judgment becomes a sham. Moreover, despite the varying ways that the human constitution is described (and the MASSIVE theological import some people place on a specific view of that constitution), the fact is that the Second Temple Jews were essentially monists, believing that human beings are unified entities and cannot be dissected into “soul, body, and spirit.” Consequently, it stands to reason that they would have believed, and some texts attest to the belief, that the dead are not conscious after death.
The problem, however, is that the texts at are disposal are often ambiguous and difficult to work with. For example, how should we use Jesus’ parable about Abraham and Lazarus? Does this provide an accurate reflection of the afterlife, or is it merely illustrative? What about the souls under the altar in Revelation - should we really believe that there is an altar in heaven with souls beneath it, or is this simply an image John is using to make a larger point (i.e., that God remembers the suffering of his servants)? Determining which texts are “literal” and which ones are not on this subject can be tricky.
Moreover, we always have to be sensitive to the possibility of progressive revelation on this issue - the OT may reflect a very early stage in the development of belief in the afterlife. Consequently, we may not be able to take everything said therein as equally definitive. I don’t totally buy that argument myself, but it is possible.
