Why Kerry Thinks He Lost

Lothario,

"C’mon Zeb, you know better than to whip out the straw man arguments like that. Yeah, letting two homos marry each other is like marrying a camel, or whatever. Honestly. See what I believe marriage to be:

I wrote:
And that “institution” is not some incredibly permanent place somewhere, it exists in the hearts, minds, and souls of TWO people, and oftentimes their belief in a God."

I see your point, and here is where I - and most other conservatives - differ.

Saying that marriage is the union of two people is fundamentally incorrect. It is the union of two very specific people - a man and a woman. To say that marriage is between two people without the qualifications of heterosexual union is a radical departure from the cultural and historical definition of Western marriage.

In fact, polygamists have a better claim at saying their version of marriage is more valid than gay marriage - they actually have historical precedent, even in Western culture. I don’t support polygamy either, but polygamy would be an even less radical departure from the marriage concept than would gay marriage.

Gay marriage would be a unnatural, artificial creation whose purpose is mostly designed to make people feel better about themselves.

"Now I would like to take the opportunity to ask you to take inventory of yourself and ask yourself something: “would it really hurt if we change this idea of marriage again?”

Yes, in that it restructures the family in a way that is detrimental to child-raising.

“we’ve slowly come to accept divorce”

That’s not a change on marriage, that’s change in values. Marriage is what it always has been, irregardless of the divorce rates.

“we’ve seen a rise in children out of wedlock – something extremely unacceptable even less than a hundred years ago.”

And still very unacceptable once we pierce the curtain of political correctness.

“Now we pick our own marital partners, now we pick when and where and how we marry… do you see what I’m getting at here? The “institution of marriage” has not been the same thing that we experience today. It HAS changed, many times, many ways.”

It has changed in many ways, but its fundamental purpose remains the same - spiritual and legal commitment, procreation, maintenance of an ordered family, and masculine and feminine partnership in the raising of children.

What does gay marriage accomplish outside of acting as therapy for homosexuals? I believe in extending hospital visitation rights, property division, and a few others. But marriage? Just as I tell the polygamists, polyandrists, and bigamists - no.

I want no change in the fundamental definition - two people, a man and a woman - of marriage.

lothario:

My point was simple: If you allow two people of the same sex to marry, what is to stop all sorts of changes to the institution of marriage? Some of them even an open minded person like yourself would not like. :wink:

lothario:

lothario wrote:

What makes you doubt them any more than liberals on this issue? Just curious.

If your standard is that they don’t seem to be changing their minds, I’d suggest that’s an improper standard, based on what I wrote above. I’d also suggest that I don’t see any minds changing on the other side, either, so that a bad standard equally applied would lead to the conclusion that everyone who is debating the topic is close minded.

lothario wrote:

The institution of marriage has meant different things to different societies throughout the ages – usually it varied along with the rights of women within the particular society.

However, I don’t think the argument involves getting “starry-eyed” about the historical conception of the institution of marriage. More below.

lothario wrote:

It’s still just a contract as far as the law is concerned.

While the general societal idea of marriage might encompass those things, “love” and “mutual desire” are not behind tax and other policies designed to favor marriage. Nor are they prerequisites to marriages, successful or otherwise.

In reality, marriage “rights” are a series of contractual rights all put into a neat package, based on legislative decisions as to what is fair for the parties involved and best for children (varying, naturally, on a state-to-state basis). Unfortunately, it’s not one coherent system, but one that has been monkeyed with piecemeal as different issues concerned legislators (or judges, depending on whether you look backward from the perspective of divorcees). Those are combined with a different set of benefits available to married people that center around taxes.

The contractual rights can all be attained via actual contracts if people really want them. Living wills, actual wills, powers of attorney, etc. are available, and one can construct a virtual marriage relationship, or one can pick and choose among the contractual obligations and rights one wishes to take on or bestow. It might not be quite as easy as showing up at the Justice of the Peace for the pre-ordained societal marriage package, but on the other hand there is more freedom, and, as I said, one can construct the same relationship. There is no equity issue here.

Taxes and the right to designate beneficiaries under health and other policies are different animals. The government can discriminate in tax policy, and does so constantly – the whole damn tax code is just discriminations of one form or another in favor of preferred behaviors. If it has a rational basis – and this surely passes that legal threshold (basically anything passes that legal threshold) – then the government can use the tax code for policy reasons.

W/r/t health insurance and whatnot, individuals are not protected, in most states, from employer discrimination based on sexual orientation. This would be the one area I can think of in which marriage would confer otherwise unavailable benefits, provided that states that allow sexual-preference-based discrimination didn’t change the laws w/r/t insurance and marriage, which they could very well do. However, it should be noted that many employers voluntarily allow benefits for “domestic partners,” and this is one way that employers compete for employees. If a person wants to secure benefits for a same-sex partner, that person has many choices of employers who would provide that benefit.

The main reason that marriages are favored is that two-parent households are preferred for raising children, and inheritence laws based on the idea of a non-working spouse.

W/r/t the inheritance favoritism, if you don’t like that, I suggest abolishing the death tax – that would fix everything in that respect.

With respect to a policy of tax breaks that favor married couples in general, those are designed to encourage marriage, mostly due to the idea that married couples are best able to raise children. This is not affected by any individual case of a married couple with no children, or who cannot have children, because it reflects a generalized preference designed to cover the population and encourage marriage itself, which has the related and desired effect of providing children with two-parent households.

This ethic has been chipped away with various policies, the most prominent of which was no-fault divorces. But the fact that one policy has weakened marriages does not immediately require the embrace of others that one thinks will further the decline of the value of marriage as an institution in support of two-parent families.

This gets to the main worry people have concerning “the institution of marriage.” Aside from the very strong legal arguments against having a “right to marriage” read into the Constitution for individual adults, which I have detailed before, some people worry about the overall effects of even legislatures allowing gay marriages. They worry about further weakening the perception that marriages are for children, not adults; they worry that providing a bunch of benefits to any adults that want to live together will undermine the attractiveness of marriage as a committed nuclear family unit; they further worry that the ease of getting into and out of the benefits of marriage as the exist now, due to the creation of some sort of “domestic partnership,” would be a too-attractive option to young heterosexual couples, as they could have benefits of marriage without the accompanying responsibilities or costs of extrication.

In short, there are many worries involved. Some may be more logical than others, but none are irrational. And none involve being simply “close minded,” especially when the rejoinder to the worries/doubts is “they just won’t hurt it.” That’s none too reassuring to someone who is actually worried about further deterioration of two-parent families.

I could envision a fix – but it could not involve the judicial “right to marriage.” I could foresee a legislative fix that tightened divorce laws while simultaneously extending a “civil union” option to same-sex couples that was equally difficult to get out of as marriage, and was only available to same-sex couples. None of this “designate a domestic partner” business that could be changed on 30-days notice. Churches would not be required to perform ceremonies, but could if they chose.

Probably not likely, but that is a solution I could see mollifying both sides, to the extent they want what they say they do.

lothario wrote:

As far as it goes, there is absolutely no law that prohibits same-sex couples from holding themselves out as “married” in their general, everyday life if they so desire. They can’t claim the legal benefits, but those aren’t important to your “heart and soul” position.

One small note on divorce rates. They are consistently over-estimated, mostly because of a flaw inherent in the reporting of the numbers. People are fond of quoting the statistic “More than 50% of marriages end in divorce.” That may be true, but, that doesn’t necessarily mean what people think it means. My grandparents, who have been married for 50 years, count as 1 marriage. My idiot acquaintance from high school, who was on marriage number 3 at our 10-year reunion, counts as 3 marriages, two of which failed (so far).

Basically, successful marriages count once, while serial divorcees pad the statistic on the side of failed marriages. Unfortunately, many of the serial-marriages are products of economics – either poverty or extreme wealth. On another thread we are discussing welfare – the most effective poverty program I could imagine would solve the single-parent problem so endemic in poor communities.

How about minors marrying adults?

Zeb, this is rather routine in most states. Court approval is the main prerequisite.

Hahahaha.

Other than the fact they regularly refuse to answer questions, address issues raised or have any ability to explain their viewpoint in their own words?

I’d consider people open minded, or at least somewhat, if they were able to have a rational discussion concerning the pro’s and con’s of the idea. Indicate understanding and be able to explore the opposing sides viewpoint from time to time.

Issuing flat rejection notices does not give this impression.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Hahahaha.

Other than the fact they regularly refuse to answer questions, address issues raised or have any ability to explain their viewpoint in their own words?

I’d consider people open minded, or at least somewhat, if they were able to have a rational discussion concerning the pro’s and con’s of the idea. Indicate understanding and be able to explore the opposing sides viewpoint from time to time.

Issuing flat rejection notices does not give this impression.[/quote]

Who is this “they” you refer to?

Once again, you are proving my point that liberals have appointed themselves as the arbitors of open-mindedness.

If I fail to meet YOUR standard and prove to YOU my ability to think through an issue, am I then a close-minded yocal?

Do I have to go through the thought process in front of you to prove that I have, indeed, examined both sides?

Is it beyond your imagination that I can do this on my own time, and come to a conclusion that differs from yours and be steadfast in that decision?

If I am one of the ‘they’ you refer to - please show me where I have ever issued a ‘rejection notice’.

On a side note - I just ordered 10 tubs of Low-Carb Grow!.

Back on the original point of the thread, and off to the point of a digression way back when, here’s an observation concerning some journalists who investigated one of the FL conspiracy theories:

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2004_11_28.shtml#1101837350

Florida pro-Bush Democrats:

Remember those allegations early this month (feels like ages ago, doesn’t it?) that there was something fishy in some Florida counties’ being reported as voting heavily pro-Bush when voter registration was heavily Democrat? It seemed to me that this was actually fishy only to those who hadn’t heard of conservative Southern Democrats, but people definitely brought it up (see The Volokh Conspiracy - Ever heard of conservative Southern Democrats? ). Here’s what John Fund in OpinionJournal’s Political Diary has to say about the latest in this saga; entire item reprinted with permission:

[Begin John Fund excerpt] Pith-Helmeted Reporters Meet Bush Voters

Two Miami Herald reporters got a real education in red-state thinking when they decided to check out the Internet conspiracy theories that George W. Bush had stolen Florida because several counties with overwhelmingly Democratic voter registration edges had voted Republican for president. As one blogger put it, "George W. Bush's vote tallies . . . are so statistically stunning that they border on the unbelievable."

Not after the Miami Herald scribes decided to actually drop in on three of the northern Florida counties whose vote totals were questioned. Sounding as if they were cultural anthropologists visiting an exotic tribe, reporters Meg Laughlin and David Kidwell first visited Union County, where over 75% of voters are Democrats. They physically recounted the ballots cast in this month's election and concluded the results accurately reflected Mr. Bush's reported 72% victory. Election Supervisor Babs Montpetit explained: "People here are fundamentalist Christians who work in the prisons. Do you think they're going to vote for the liberal senator from Massachusetts?"

Having absorbed that observation, the intrepid pair proceeded to next-door Suwannee County, immortalized in the famous Stephen Foster song. Election Supervisor Glenda Williams showed them the ballots, which the reporters noted validated Mr. Bush's 70% victory there. "Most people in this county are against abortion and gay marriage. So they voted for Bush," she explained.

The final stop on the team's cultural odyssey was Lafayette County, where 83% of voters claim to be Democrats. Here the reporters didn't have to wait long for an explanation as to why Mr. Bush won three-fourths of the vote. A billboard on the road proclaimed "There is life before birth" and a neighborhood was called "The Christian Village." After quickly recounting the county's ballots, the reporters headed back to the Jacksonville airport, noting that the roadway was lined with "Snoball stands, chicken farms and anti-abortion billboards."

The Herald's excursion into Florida's Bush Country may not have turned up any election scandals, but the concept appeals to me. Perhaps more big-city media outlets should send expeditionary forces into rural and exurban parts of their states and report on what people there are thinking. Then fewer of them might be surprised every two years. [End John Fund excerpt]

Yeah, a bit snide, but pretty funny.

To those who think that homosexual marriage will adversely effect heterosexual marriages, the case of Massachusetts is instructive. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts has the lowest divorce rate in the union alongside legal homosexual marriage. So much for the theory that homosexual marriage will destroy society.

Also, I would love to see a broader political debate in American society. This forum seems to mirror the often narrowly focused domestic political agenda of gay marriage, abortion, “The War on Terror”, etc. As a society we need to discuss other issues as well. For instance, what do people here think of the recent report indicating polar ice melting? Considering the implications for global climate change I think this is far more relevant to American life than Dick Cheney’s daughter’s sexual orientation.

Flanker
Proud Massachusetts Liberal

[quote]Who is this “they” you refer to?
[/quote]

LMAO! Feeling a bit insecure about whether or not you fit the bill?

Anyhow, to the mythical “they”, this is a discussion forum, so, please feel free to actually provide insights and analysis here…

[quote]Flanker wrote:
To those who think that homosexual marriage will adversely effect heterosexual marriages, the case of Massachusetts is instructive. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts has the lowest divorce rate in the union alongside legal homosexual marriage. So much for the theory that homosexual marriage will destroy society. [/quote]

Flanker, this is a classic straw man. Firstly, MA has had “legal gay marriage” for how long now? Around a year – the concerns about effects to heterosexual marriage are much more long-term. Second, if you look above where I outlined the concerns, “increased divorce rates” weren’t among them – a far more potent concern is concern that people won’t enter into marriages at all.

Also, if you actually wanted to see how legalizing gay marriage affected the divorce rate, you’d need to do a fairly complicated regression analysis to figure out causal or correlative relationship, if any, in MA between divorce rates and gay marriages, and in any case you’d be more interested in the change in the rate since the change to the law, not the rate itself.

[quote] Also, I would love to see a broader political debate in American society. This forum seems to mirror the often narrowly focused domestic political agenda of gay marriage, abortion, “The War on Terror”, etc. As a society we need to discuss other issues as well. For instance, what do people here think of the recent report indicating polar ice melting? Considering the implications for global climate change I think this is far more relevant to American life than Dick Cheney’s daughter’s sexual orientation.

Flanker
Proud Massachusetts Liberal[/quote]

That was discussed in another thread.

Here’s a good article for you:

[quote]vroom wrote:
LMAO! Feeling a bit insecure about whether or not you fit the bill? [/quote]

Not really - I’m not a relativist/pacifist - so I pretty much assume you are lumping everyone who has the balls to stand by their convictions into your blanket accusation. Especially if those convictions don’t dove-tail with yours.

Ahhh…but I’ve already asked you several questions - None of which you actually answered. I’d be glad to provide insights and analysis, but first you answer the questions already on the table.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
What makes you doubt them any more than liberals on this issue? Just curious.

If your standard is that they don’t seem to be changing their minds, I’d suggest that’s an improper standard, based on what I wrote above. I’d also suggest that I don’t see any minds changing on the other side, either, so that a bad standard equally applied would lead to the conclusion that everyone who is debating the topic is close minded.[/quote]

BB, I am of the opinion that nobody is going to change their minds over this, so of course I’m not using that as a standard. For lack of a better word, I “accused” some of the cons on this board of close-mindedness because that’s what they are on this issue. I don’t know what y’all consider close-minded, there’s definitely different degrees of it, but I consider close-minded to be “not open to new ideas”. Is there any doubt about the guys not being open to the idea of gay marriage? They make all kinds of straw-man arguments, go down a few slippery slope arguments, verbally dance around the topic, but that isn’t being open-minded. And I’ll say it again: THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. If you don’t want fruitcakes to marry, by all means, make yourself heard at the ballot box. Argue it in internet forums. Do whatever the hell you want. But please don’t pretend that you haven’t closed your mind off about it. Pretty much anybody who takes just a few minutes to actually consider this topic will come to a few conclusions.

  1. Like you mentioned already, all the legal documentation such as power of attorney, etc., already exists for the purpose of “pseudo-marrying” any two people together.

  2. Marriage is about two people, not about children. This is proved by the fact that two people can marry, but not have kids. You can also have kids without getting married. Anybody can argue this point until the cows come home, but I’m sorry, it’s just traditional mindset that marriage encompasses this ideal of man and woman and a bunch of kids. That’s a family ideal, not a marriage ideal.

But let’s get to the legal part of this, where I am probably outmatched handily, but I will attempt some semblance of defense against your arguments:

This is where the close-mindedness comes back to bite us in the hiney. Where is there evidence except in people’s unconscious collective disgust at homosexuality, that queers (male or female)can’t raise children, or be good parents? Not every fag is running around shopping for leather ball-gags and raving out on ecstasy in clubs every weekend. These kinds of folks won’t want to adopt a child anyway. You saw the post I made last week about the study they did with teenagers being just as well off with gay parents as they were with straight ones. Remember? I know that’s just one study, but how many have been done to show the opposite? Maybe you can argue that the burden of proof is on the pro side to show that there are no damaging effects
from being raised by a same-sex couple, but I would say that the burden is on the cons to show that it’s as unacceptable as they say.

[quote]This gets to the main worry people have concerning “the institution of marriage.” Aside from the very strong legal arguments against having a “right to marriage” read into the Constitution for individual adults, which I have detailed before, some people worry about the overall effects of even legislatures allowing gay marriages. They worry about further weakening the perception that marriages are for children, not adults; they worry that providing a bunch of benefits to any adults that want to live together will undermine the attractiveness of marriage as a committed nuclear family unit; they further worry that the ease of getting into and out of the benefits of marriage as the exist now, due to the creation of some sort of “domestic partnership,” would be a too-attractive option to young heterosexual couples, as they could have benefits of marriage without the accompanying responsibilities or costs of extrication.

In short, there are many worries involved. Some may be more logical than others, but none are irrational. And none involve being simply “close minded,” especially when the rejoinder to the worries/doubts is “they just won’t hurt it.” That’s none too reassuring to someone who is actually worried about further deterioration of two-parent families.[/quote]

I would propose that these “worries” which you enumerate ARE irrational. I would say these worries could be better called “fears”, and that they are reflections of anti-gay attitudes for some, and for others it is a stubbornness to view anything in a positive light besides what they hold in their minds as some perceived ideal for themselves. In effect, the statement they are making (maybe unconsciously) is something like: “Well, I’m not gay, so why should we let gay people marry? They don’t need to…” and then they come up with as many reasons as they can to show that gay people don’t need to marry. This is called close-mindedness.

[quote]I could envision a fix – but it could not involve the judicial “right to marriage.” I could foresee a legislative fix that tightened divorce laws while simultaneously extending a “civil union” option to same-sex couples that was equally difficult to get out of as marriage, and was only available to same-sex couples. None of this “designate a domestic partner” business that could be changed on 30-days notice. Churches would not be required to perform ceremonies, but could if they chose.

Probably not likely, but that is a solution I could see mollifying both sides, to the extent they want what they say they do.[/quote]

This is why you, BB, are not included in the “close-minded” set. Your beef with all of this is the fact that judges tried to usurp the legislative branch on this issue. I don’t blame you. I don’t want a couple of guys in robes making policy for the entire country either. Thing is, I think you are the only person in the forums who has come out with this argument (I could be wrong), and my posts have been directed to those who are against gay marriage because it “weakens families” and “weakens the institution”. Believe it or not, BB, you are actually PRO-gay marriage, and don’t even realize it. The way I see it, you just don’t want to call them “married”.

[quote]One small note on divorce rates. They are consistently over-estimated, mostly because of a flaw inherent in the reporting of the numbers. People are fond of quoting the statistic “More than 50% of marriages end in divorce.” That may be true, but, that doesn’t necessarily mean what people think it means. My grandparents, who have been married for 50 years, count as 1 marriage. My idiot acquaintance from high school, who was on marriage number 3 at our 10-year reunion, counts as 3 marriages, two of which failed (so far).

Basically, successful marriages count once, while serial divorcees pad the statistic on the side of failed marriages. Unfortunately, many of the serial-marriages are products of economics – either poverty or extreme wealth. On another thread we are discussing welfare – the most effective poverty program I could imagine would solve the single-parent problem so endemic in poor communities.[/quote]

I just want to say that you make a good point here about the statistics being skewed. I mean, if you want to compare the number of successful current marriages vs. the number of divorces, then the numbers are right. If you want to compare the number of people who have successful marriages vs. the number of people who have not, then the numbers are wrong. But think about all the folks who had one bad marriage, and then now have a successful one. How do we factor them into this? Really, the only feasible number we can come up with is marriages vs. divorces. Anything else would require a pretty extensive research into individual relationships. Right?

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
…For lack of a better word, I “accused” some of the cons on this board of close-mindedness because that’s what they are on this issue. I don’t know what y’all consider close-minded, there’s definitely different degrees of it, but I consider close-minded to be “not open to new ideas”. Is there any doubt about the guys not being open to the idea of gay marriage? [/quote]

Yet another shining example of those on the left side of an issue ordaining themselves as the arbitors of open-mindedness.

You keep equating being against gay marraige as being anti-gay, and that’s not the case. 68% of the U.S. oppose gay marraige. Does that mean that 2/3 of this country are close-minded homo-phobes?

Have you no other argument in this debate other than, ‘Those guys are close-minded’? If that and emotinal appeals are all you have left in your bag-o-tricks, you might want to pick a different fight.

lothario:

Lots of points, but I’ve little time at the moment.

However, I wanted to point you to this link, which is to an archive of Stanley Kurtz’ work – he is one of the leading conservatives who articulates conservative worries about gay marriage’s effects on “the institution” of marriage:

http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz-archive.asp

I can’t really state it any better:

What Marriage is For
Maggie Gallagher

Maggie Gallagher is President of the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy and a co-author of The Case for Marriage. She also edits MarriageDebate.com, a Weblog (“blog”).

GAY MARRIAGE is no longer a theoretical issue. Canada has it. Massachusetts is expected to get it any day. The Goodridge decision there could set off a legal, political, and cultural battle in the courts of 50 states and in the U.S. Congress. Every politician, every judge, every citizen has to decide: Does same-sex marriage matter? If so, how and why?
The timing could not be worse. Marriage is in crisis, as everyone knows: High rates of divorce and illegitimacy have eroded marriage norms and created millions of fatherless children, whole neighborhoods where lifelong marriage is no longer customary, driving up poverty, crime, teen pregnancy, welfare dependency, drug abuse, and mental and physical health problems. And yet, amid the broader negative trends, recent signs point to a modest but significant recovery.

Divorce rates appear to have declined a little from historic highs; illegitimacy rates, after doubling every decade from 1960 to 1990, appear to have leveled off, albeit at a high level (33 percent of American births are to unmarried women); teen pregnancy and sexual activity are down; the proportion of homemaking mothers is up; marital fertility appears to be on the rise. Research suggests that married adults are more committed to marital permanence than they were twenty years ago. A new generation of children of divorce appears on the brink of making a commitment to lifelong marriage. In 1977, 55 percent of American teenagers thought a divorce should be harder to get; in 2001, 75 percent did.

A new marriage movement?a distinctively American phenomenon?has been born. The scholarly consensus on the importance of marriage has broadened and deepened; it is now the conventional wisdom among child welfare organizations. As a Child Trends research brief summed up: “Research clearly demonstrates that family structure matters for children, and the family structure that helps children the most is a family headed by two biological parents in a low-conflict marriage. Children in single-parent families, children born to unmarried mothers, and children in stepfamilies or cohabiting relationships face higher risks of poor outcomes… There is thus value for children in promoting strong, stable marriages between biological parents.”

What will court-imposed gay marriage do to this incipient recovery of marriage? For, even as support for marriage in general has been rising, the gay marriage debate has proceeded on a separate track. Now the time has come to decide: Will unisex marriage help or hurt marriage as a social institution?

Why should it do either, some may ask? How can Bill and Bob’s marriage hurt Mary and Joe? In an exchange with me in the just-released book “Marriage and Same Sex Unions: A Debate,” Evan Wolfson, chief legal strategist for same-sex marriage in the Hawaii case, Baer v. Lewin, argues there is “enough marriage to share.” What counts, he says, “is not family structure, but the quality of dedication, commitment, self-sacrifice, and love in the household.”

Family structure does not count. Then what is marriage for? Why have laws about it? Why care whether people get married or stay married? Do children need mothers and fathers, or will any sort of family do? When the sexual desires of adults clash with the interests of children, which carries more weight, socially and legally?

These are the questions that same-sex marriage raises. Our answers will affect not only gay and lesbian families, but marriage as a whole.

IN ORDERING GAY MARRIAGE on June 10, 2003, the highest court in Ontario, Canada, explicitly endorsed a brand new vision of marriage along the lines Wolfson suggests: “Marriage is, without dispute, one of the most significant forms of personal relationships… Through the institution of marriage, individuals can publicly express their love and commitment to each other. Through this institution, society publicly recognizes expressions of love and commitment between individuals, granting them respect and legitimacy as a couple.”

The Ontario court views marriage as a kind of Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval that government stamps on certain registered intimacies because, well, for no particular reason the court can articulate except that society likes to recognize expressions of love and commitment. In this view, endorsement of gay marriage is a no-brainer, for nothing really important rides on whether anyone gets married or stays married. Marriage is merely individual expressive conduct, and there is no obvious reason why some individuals’ expression of gay love should hurt other individuals’ expressions of non-gay love.

There is, however, a different view?indeed, a view that is radically opposed to this: Marriage is the fundamental, cross-cultural institution for bridging the male-female divide so that children have loving, committed mothers and fathers. Marriage is inherently normative: It is about holding out a certain kind of relationship as a social ideal, especially when there are children involved. Marriage is not simply an artifact of law; neither is it a mere delivery mechanism for a set of legal benefits that might as well be shared more broadly. The laws of marriage do not create marriage, but in societies ruled by law they help trace the boundaries and sustain the public meanings of marriage.

In other words, while individuals freely choose to enter marriage, society upholds the marriage option, formalizes its definition, and surrounds it with norms and reinforcements, so we can raise boys and girls who aspire to become the kind of men and women who can make successful marriages. Without this shared, public aspect, perpetuated generation after generation, marriage becomes what its critics say it is: a mere contract, a vessel with no particular content, one of a menu of sexual lifestyles, of no fundamental importance to anyone outside a given relationship.

The marriage idea is that children need mothers and fathers, that societies need babies, and that adults have an obligation to shape their sexual behavior so as to give their children stable families in which to grow up.

Which view of marriage is true? We have seen what has happened in our communities where marriage norms have failed. What has happened is not a flowering of libertarian freedom, but a breakdown of social and civic order that can reach frightening proportions. When law and culture retreat from sustaining the marriage idea, individuals cannot create marriage on their own.

In a complex society governed by positive law, social institutions require both social and legal support. To use an analogy, the government does not create private property. But to make a market system a reality requires the assistance of law as well as culture. People have to be raised to respect the property of others, and to value the traits of entrepreneurship, and to be law-abiding generally. The law cannot allow individuals to define for themselves what private property (or law-abiding conduct) means. The boundaries of certain institutions (such as the corporation) also need to be defined legally, and the definitions become socially shared knowledge. We need a shared system of meaning, publicly enforced, if market-based economies are to do their magic and individuals are to maximize their opportunities.

Successful social institutions generally function without people’s having to think very much about how they work. But when a social institution is contested?as marriage is today?it becomes critically important to think and speak clearly about its public meanings.

AGAIN, what is marriage for? Marriage is a virtually universal human institution. In all the wildly rich and various cultures flung throughout the ecosphere, in society after society, whether tribal or complex, and however bizarre, human beings have created systems of publicly approved sexual union between men and women that entail well-defined responsibilities of mothers and fathers. Not all these marriage systems look like our own, which is rooted in a fusion of Greek, Roman, Jewish, and Christian culture. Yet everywhere, in isolated mountain valleys, parched deserts, jungle thickets, and broad plains, people have come up with some version of this thing called marriage. Why?

Because sex between men and women makes babies, that’s why. Even today, in our technologically advanced contraceptive culture, half of all pregnancies are unintended: Sex between men and women still makes babies. Most men and women are powerfully drawn to perform a sexual act that can and does generate life. Marriage is our attempt to reconcile and harmonize the erotic, social, sexual, and financial needs of men and women with the needs of their partner and their children.

How to reconcile the needs of children with the sexual desires of adults? Every society has to face that question, and some resolve it in ways that inflict horrendous cruelty on children born outside marriage. Some cultures decide these children don’t matter: Men can have all the sex they want, and any children they create outside of marriage will be throwaway kids; marriage is for citizens?slaves and peasants need not apply. You can see a version of this elitist vision of marriage emerging in America under cover of acceptance of family diversity. Marriage will continue to exist as the social advantage of elite communities. The poor and the working class? Who cares whether their kids have dads? We can always import people from abroad to fill our need for disciplined, educated workers.

Our better tradition, and the only one consistent with democratic principles, is to hold up a single ideal for all parents, which is ultimately based on our deep cultural commitment to the equal dignity and social worth of all children. All kids need and deserve a married mom and dad. All parents are supposed to at least try to behave in ways that will give their own children this important protection. Privately, religiously, emotionally, individually, marriage may have many meanings. But this is the core of its public, shared meaning: Marriage is the place where having children is not only tolerated but welcomed and encouraged, because it gives children mothers and fathers.

Of course, many couples fail to live up to this ideal. Many of the things men and women have to do to sustain their own marriages, and a culture of marriage, are hard. Few people will do them consistently if the larger culture does not affirm the critical importance of marriage as a social institution. Why stick out a frustrating relationship, turn down a tempting new love, abstain from sex outside marriage, or even take pains not to conceive children out of wedlock if family structure does not matter? If marriage is not a shared norm, and if successful marriage is not socially valued, do not expect it to survive as the generally accepted context for raising children. If marriage is just a way of publicly celebrating private love, then there is no need to encourage couples to stick it out for the sake of the children. If family structure does not matter, why have marriage laws at all? Do adults, or do they not, have a basic obligation to control their desires so that children can have mothers and fathers?

THE PROBLEM with endorsing gay marriage is not that it would allow a handful of people to choose alternative family forms, but that it would require society at large to gut marriage of its central presumptions about family in order to accommodate a few adults’ desires.

The debate over same-sex marriage, then, is not some sideline discussion. It is the marriage debate. Either we win–or we lose the central meaning of marriage. The great threat unisex marriage poses to marriage as a social institution is not some distant or nearby slippery slope, it is an abyss at our feet. If we cannot explain why unisex marriage is, in itself, a disaster, we have already lost the marriage ideal.

Same-sex marriage would enshrine in law a public judgment that the desire of adults for families of choice outweighs the need of children for mothers and fathers. It would give sanction and approval to the creation of a motherless or fatherless family as a deliberately chosen “good.” It would mean the law was neutral as to whether children had mothers and fathers. Motherless and fatherless families would be deemed just fine.

Same-sex marriage advocates are startlingly clear on this point. Marriage law, they repeatedly claim, has nothing to do with babies or procreation or getting mothers and fathers for children. In forcing the state legislature to create civil unions for gay couples, the high court of Vermont explicitly ruled that marriage in the state of Vermont has nothing to do with procreation. Evan Wolfson made the same point in “Marriage and Same Sex Unions”: “[I]sn’t having the law pretend that there is only one family model that works (let alone exists) a lie?” He goes on to say that in law, “marriage is not just about procreation–indeedis not necessarily about procreation at all.”

Wolfson is right that in the course of the sexual revolution the Supreme Court struck down many legal features designed to reinforce the connection of marriage to babies. The animus of elites (including legal elites) against the marriage idea is not brand new. It stretches back at least thirty years. That is part of the problem we face, part of the reason 40 percent of our children are growing up without their fathers.

It is also true, as gay-marriage advocates note, that we impose no fertility tests for marriage: Infertile and older couples marry, and not every fertile couple chooses procreation. But every marriage between a man and a woman is capable of giving any child they create or adopt a mother and a father. Every marriage between a man and a woman discourages either from creating fatherless children outside the marriage vow. In this sense, neither older married couples nor childless husbands and wives publicly challenge or dilute the core meaning of marriage. Even when a man marries an older woman and they do not adopt, his marriage helps protect children. How? His marriage means, if he keeps his vows, that he will not produce out-of-wedlock children.

Does marriage discriminate against gays and lesbians? Formally speaking, no. There are no sexual-orientation tests for marriage; many gays and lesbians do choose to marry members of the opposite sex, and some of these unions succeed. Our laws do not require a person to marry the individual to whom he or she is most erotically attracted, so long as he or she is willing to promise sexual fidelity, mutual caretaking, and shared parenting of any children of the marriage.

But marriage is unsuited to the wants and desires of many gays and lesbians, precisely because it is designed to bridge the male-female divide and sustain the idea that children need mothers and fathers. To make a marriage, what you need is a husband and a wife. Redefining marriage so that it suits gays and lesbians would require fundamentally changing our legal, public, and social conception of what marriage is in ways that threaten its core public purposes.

Some who criticize the refusal to embrace gay marriage liken it to the outlawing of interracial marriage, but the analogy is woefully false. The Supreme Court overturned anti-miscegenation laws because they frustrated the core purpose of marriage in order to sustain a racist legal order. Marriage laws, by contrast, were not invented to express animus toward homosexuals or anyone else. Their purpose is not negative, but positive: They uphold an institution that developed, over thousands of years, in thousands of cultures, to help direct the erotic desires of men and women into a relatively narrow but indispensably fruitful channel. We need men and women to marry and make babies for our society to survive. We have no similar public stake in any other family form–in the union of same-sex couples or the singleness of single moms.

Meanwhile, cui bono? To meet the desires of whom would we put our most basic social institution at risk? No good research on the marriage intentions of homosexual people exists. For what it’s worth, the Census Bureau reports that 0.5 percent of households now consist of same-sex partners. To get a proxy for how many gay couples would avail themselves of the health insurance benefits marriage can provide, I asked the top 10 companies listed on the Human Rights Campaign’s website as providing same-sex insurance benefits how many of their employees use this option. Only one company, General Motors, released its data. Out of 1.3 million employees, 166 claimed benefits for a same-sex partner, one one-hundredth of one percent.

People who argue for creating gay marriage do so in the name of high ideals: justice, compassion, fairness. Their sincerity is not in question. Nevertheless, to take the already troubled institution most responsible for the protection of children and throw out its most basic presumption in order to further adult interests in sexual freedom would not be high-minded. It would be morally callous and socially irresponsible.

If we cannot stand and defend this ground, then face it: The marriage debate is over. Dan Quayle was wrong. We lost.

Guys: Whew! Did a lot of reading tonight. Y’all posted some good links/articles on this issue. Let’s just do this in a couple of posts.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Yet another shining example of those on the left side of an issue ordaining themselves as the arbitors of open-mindedness.[/quote]

Sorry rainjack, but this time you are being “close-minded”. Please see my previous posts for why I think this way.

I will post an excerpt of mine from above to answer this:

I would propose that these “worries” which you enumerate ARE irrational. I would say these worries could be better called “fears”, and that they are reflections of anti-gay attitudes for some, and for others it is a stubbornness to view anything in a positive light besides what they hold in their minds as some perceived ideal for themselves.

Yes, by definition, on this issue you are either anti-gay, close-minded or both. Wait, you could also be ignorant, but I would hesitate to call anybody that. I definitely don’t think you are ignorant, so I’ll stick with close-minded.

[quote]Have you no other argument in this debate other than, ‘Those guys are close-minded’? If that and emotinal appeals are all you have left in your bag-o-tricks, you might want to pick a different fight.
[/quote]

Here’s why I am calling y’all close-minded. Your argument can be summed up in one sentence: “By expanding the idea of marriage, we will destroy it.”

Oh really? How? How can you know this? BB posted a link to a rather comprehensive conservative weblog which addressed the issue. In a small county called Nordland in Norway, there are two statistics which coincide. The high “acceptance of gay marriage” and the high “out of wedlock parenting”. Stanley Kurtz (the weblog author) uses this to show a causality between gay marriage and the decline of traditional marriage. I would beg to differ.

Talk about apples and oranges! Comparing a small county in Norway with the US is a great leap of faith, in my book. Maybe it’s not in yours. That’s cool. What other factors could be contributing to the rather high out-of-wedlock births? Could it be that gay couples who get married are raiding sperm banks and impregnating women in their sleep? Perhaps the gay married couples beat up couples who are heterosexual, preventing them from being married? (Hehehe, sorry, I couldn’t help myself) The causality link is ridiculous. Being a bit more open-minded than Kurtz, I came up with a much better explanation. Ready?

A high acceptance of gay marriage = a high amount of ultra-liberals

a high amount of ultra-liberals = a lot of pot-smoking hippies

a lot of pot-smoking hippies = why get married, we’ll just have children anyway

Now THAT’S a logically ordered reason. You will, of course, note that the gays being married didn’t actually CAUSE the decline of marriage rates as measured by out-of-wedlock childbirths. It was being a stinking damn hippie that did it.

One more to rainjack: I would just like to reiterate what ZEB mentioned earlier in this thread. IT IS NOT A BAD THING TO BE CLOSE-MINDED. I am simply pointing out that this is probably the reason that some of y’all are against gay marriage. I’m not saying it to demonize you. I would say the same thing to any Christian arguing religion, or to any liberal arguing the Iraq war.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
lothario:

Lots of points, but I’ve little time at the moment.

However, I wanted to point you to this link, which is to an archive of Stanley Kurtz’ work – he is one of the leading conservatives who articulates conservative worries about gay marriage’s effects on “the institution” of marriage:

http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz-archive.asp[/quote]

BB, thanks for taking the time to post this. I got a lot out of reading the weblog. Kurtz is a bit self-important, but I like his style. If you think you’re right, why not kick everybody’s ass about it? Actually, his weblog is pretty damn funny because of that. Very good reading.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Hey Brian,

By putting the word values in parenthesis, I assume you meant it as a perjorative.

I’m not going to go into the many different interpretations of values.

However, it would be another losing strategy to assume that values only means religion.

It is far deeper than that.

Honesty, steadfastness, and consistency come to mind.

I’m all for Democrats getting their act together. I’m tired of being insulted by your candidates. Your candidates assume that most of us don’t remember what they say. Like Kerry trying to maintain, “I’ve had one consistent policy on Iraq.”

That is insulting.

I hope your party does some serious soul-searching.

Good luck!!!

JeffR[/quote]

There is quite a lot to reply to in that post, but Im in no way offended by it, so here goes. The problems I have with a campaign run on values are that it is an easy way to reduce politics to religion, it is an easy way to characterize the difference between two candidates (Kerry, in reality, a centrist characterized as far left liberal… look no further than the second debate, where Dubya dropped the L bomb 27 times) and it is an easy distraction from what really matters. I could sit here and lecture till I was blue in the face on how Kerry was in fact consistent on hundreds of policies over his Senatorial career, but there are larger cultural phenomena occuring that the GOP and not the Democrats have embraced that make such a conversation little more than hot air, not the least of which is the collapse of civility most evident in last weeks “malice at the Palace.”
-Indignantly,
Brian