[quote]Dorso wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
How much privacy do you think people had 100 or 200 years ago?
I suspect they did not have very much. The government and churches have always been very intrusive.
I think the big difference now is technology for spying and recording.
I think the other big difference is the the dissapearence of the frontier. From the Puritan settlers until the late 19th century people who didn’t want to abide by the laws or norms of society were always able to move west (or east from California after the Gold Rush) and live their lives with a greater degree of personal freedom and anonimity. These benifits were accompanied by less security and more lawlessness. Although that lifestyle didn’t suit everyone, it always gave everyone the option to withdraw from their social contract and escape somewhat from the rules and restraints of cvilization.
We no longer have a frontier to move to. We have no option to pack up escape civilization anymore. For that reason I think any erosion of our liberty is much more destructive to our freedom. It effects everyone and once our freedom is gone will have to reverse the process to get it back, since their is nowhere else to go. [/quote]
That’s a great point, something I’d never thought of before.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
I’m not going to cover this on philosophical/theory grounds, because I don’t think anyone really reads those posts of mine anyway. I don’t blame you, they’re long.
Instead, let me just suggest a couple of things about human psychology and power.
It may be true that human beings require privacy to feel autonomous. And to a large extent, autonomy requires privacy. Liberal societies that, in principle, believe in the “marketplace of ideas” need exceptional people who challenge norms; these people will be less likely to emerge if they are subject to constant monitoring. But I’ve said too much…
Some laws ought to be broken. The ability to break laws, to resist the government, and to be disobedient to authority are necessary to check the tyranny of government. This may sound somewhat anachronistic to your ears, because you’ve never lived under such an oppressive regime, or have not troubled yourself to imagine what that would be like.
There are many things that people like to do that are not threatening to others, yet they would not wish to become public knowledge. As such, intruding privacy gives government the power to coerce in chilling ways.
On the other hand, I do wonder if people would be made more just by such invasive laws. This is, again, probably anachronistic. We don’t generally speak of “statecraft as soulcraft” any longer. But it’s an interesting question. We should also wonder if such a regime could ever be tolerated in a commercial republic… unless it were, in fact, carried out on the premise of commercialism.
But it doesn’t matter what we say, really. Our rights are being eroded. People are imprisoned without due process. Websites that embarrass the administration are being shut down. Parents are starting to buy tracking devices for their teenage children, which will serve the useful purpose of making them accustomed to constant monitoring from an early age. We have no property rights. It is time for a revolution, but no one will turn off the television long enough to care.
[/quote]
I don’t know if it’s “time for a revolution,” but some of the stuff that’s gone on in the last four years is disturbing. The Kelo decision; the PATRIOT Act; forget Guantanamo, the detention of US CITIZENS indefinitely without trial… Are things as bad as the left wing lunatics who howl about “fascism” say they are? Of course not. But there are very real encroachments on civil liberties taking place.
[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
Vegita wrote:
I mean I would rather know my government is using every espionage tool available to find out who the really bad people are and jump on them before they do something really bad.
V
That’s fine, until you start feeding hungry black children before school, and the government decides YOU are one of the bad guys.[/quote]
Schools in the U.S. do give poor black (and white and yellow and brown) kid free breakfast.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
some of the stuff that’s gone on in the last four years is disturbing. The Kelo decision; the PATRIOT Act; forget Guantanamo, the detention of US CITIZENS indefinitely without trial… Are things as bad as the left wing lunatics who howl about “fascism” say they are? Of course not. But there are very real encroachments on civil liberties taking place.[/quote]