Why Does Everyone Hate Socialism?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Why weren’t taxes being called “socialism” before now?

Socialism is a doctrine which attempts to direct market conditions by controlling the use of private property. It has nothing to do with taxes; however, socialism cannot be instituted without taxation. In many respects legalizing of the income tax was the beginning of socialism in the US.[/quote]

Taxation is a form of control. Look at how much the world of farming is controlled by them. (a tax break is really a subsidy)

Why is that republicans don’t see manditory drug testing, as well as drug screening as socialism hard at work. Laws that force individuals to relinquish their freedom for employment. With continuous random period of social conformity to remind the individual that they are not in control. America is already awash with socialism, just look around at the rights, oh sorry you lost those ones.

[quote]streamline wrote:
Why is that republicans don’t see manditory drug testing, as well as drug screening as socialism hard at work. Laws that force individuals to relinquish their freedom for employment. With continuous random period of social conformity to remind the individual that they are not in control. America is already awash with socialism, just look around at the rights, oh sorry you lost those ones. [/quote]

If I’m working at a job that involves hazardous materials and machinery, I have the right to work in a safe environment, free of people under the influence.

[quote]Spry wrote:
Now, communism is very bad. Governing by force won’t work.

But Socialism? Providing for everyone’s needs?

If it works for Starfleet than why not in the real world?

Is it just lack of technology to provide everyone with their needs?

If we had the technology, would it work?

Rather than strive for money we might strive for rank, power, knowledge but always have food, shelther and a holodeck for some fun?

I am very curious as to why Socialism is considered evil.

The lack of motivation will destroy a society but what if we could focus on only striving for our wants and not our needs?

Cheers,
Spry.

[/quote]

Socialism pretty much has it’s own built-in failure modes. A great place to read up on this is from Robert Conquest who was the first to chronicle the abuses of the Soviet system. He makes a very cogent argument that there is no such thing as “scientific socialism”, that in point of fact it has never been much above the level of Utopian dreaming and every place that socialists have come to power unopposed has ended in systemic failure. They are useful as an opposition party, but not as absolute rulers. Since the actual mandate is amorphous, we run into the same thing over and over again: the socialists screw it up (e.g. Algeria) and everyone falls all over themselves to say they weren’t really socialists after all.

One last little thought about “from each according to his needs” type of thinking. In this day and age we have made vast progress in health, safety, comfort and standards of living. Do people take this time to better themselves? Generally not. What’s keeping you from being better read or learning some wicked kewl skill? Nix. People tend sit around in their undershorts watching Superbowl reruns. If they fell bad about themselves they are apt to blame the system. People are, as Tolstoy quipped, all for changing the world but rarely mention changing themselves.

As a long time Trekker, BTW (I started with the original series), the biggest part of the entire series is that it is in many ways uptopian. That there is a bright future that we want to live in. For us it makes sense that all our contentious issues (race, poverty etc.) would be fixed – this is the reason for all the touchy-feely PC stuff. Of course, the problem is that it makes for boring TV, so then Klingons, the Borg and others show up. Oh and might I point out that it’s still easier to kiss a Romulan on the show than someone from a different human race? Hmmmmm

And as always, I might just be full of shit…

– jj

[quote]streamline wrote:
Why is that republicans don’t see manditory drug testing, as well as drug screening as socialism hard at work. Laws that force individuals to relinquish their freedom for employment. With continuous random period of social conformity to remind the individual that they are not in control. America is already awash with socialism, just look around at the rights, oh sorry you lost those ones. [/quote]

That is not the same, because whatever social conservatives decree matters little as long as you have the means to break their laws.

A government that owns all productive goods however can actually make you obey, there is little to no room to break the most stupid government regulations.

[quote]Doug Adams wrote:
streamline wrote:
Why is that republicans don’t see manditory drug testing, as well as drug screening as socialism hard at work. Laws that force individuals to relinquish their freedom for employment. With continuous random period of social conformity to remind the individual that they are not in control. America is already awash with socialism, just look around at the rights, oh sorry you lost those ones.

If I’m working at a job that involves hazardous materials and machinery, I have the right to work in a safe environment, free of people under the influence. [/quote]

No, you don’t have the right to tell the company or coworkers what is safe and how to behave. You do have the right to not work there if you deem it unsafe though.

If you invite me as a guest in your house, do I then have the right to force you to clean, repair, behave as I deem safe? No, but I can leave.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

There are some interesting socialist manifestos that in their utopia have people breed for and drafted into jobs, have your meals, vacations, and even purpose for life, planned and monitored by the government. And these same authors thought their utopias were the freest places on imaginable.

The real problem is that without fear of being fired or hope of being promoted, why work hard? Without fear of having enough for retirement, why save and invest?
[/quote]

So fear is what guides our lives? Do you live in fear daily? I don’t generally. I think this is a bit simplistic, but then again, I’m a meathead, so what do I know?

As for attaining socialism, let me tell you about a friend of mine. Her father was Mao’s cardiologist and, being foreign trained was declared both an enemy of the people as well as being placed under house arrest to cater to party bosses only (he was effectively a slave in a Beijing hospital). She and her sister were then thrown out of their house on the basis of their class origins and left to wander the streets for a few years (later they were arrested and sent to re-education camps too).

Now at this time in China, the Cultural Revolution was in full swing with gangs of youth ranging freely around looking for “Capitalists”. Children could ride the trains for free and eat in any factory cafeteria, so my friend painted a truly horrifying picture of almost feral, armed revolutionaries, mostly 16 and under, prowling the countryside. Much of the socialist utopianism was a reality for these kids and since everyone was terrified witless of being declared an enemy of the people, by and large there was no law and order either. This is but one example of how these sorts of ideas play themselves out in practice.

– jj

[quote]orion wrote:
streamline wrote:
Why is that republicans don’t see manditory drug testing, as well as drug screening as socialism hard at work. Laws that force individuals to relinquish their freedom for employment. With continuous random period of social conformity to remind the individual that they are not in control. America is already awash with socialism, just look around at the rights, oh sorry you lost those ones.

That is not the same, because whatever social conservatives decree matters little as long as you have the means to break their laws.

A government that owns all productive goods however can actually make you obey, there is little to no room to break the most stupid government regulations.

[/quote]

Sounds more like communism than socialism. There is private industry with socialism, it’s just regulated. Here in Canada we have socialist programs and private industry. We’re not a socialist country but we do walk that fine line at times.

[quote]streamline wrote:
Why is that republicans don’t see manditory drug testing, as well as drug screening as socialism hard at work. Laws that force individuals to relinquish their freedom for employment. With continuous random period of social conformity to remind the individual that they are not in control. America is already awash with socialism, just look around at the rights, oh sorry you lost those ones. [/quote]

Law and order is not socialism, but you are right, America is becoming more socialist.

[quote]streamline wrote:
orion wrote:
streamline wrote:
Why is that republicans don’t see manditory drug testing, as well as drug screening as socialism hard at work. Laws that force individuals to relinquish their freedom for employment. With continuous random period of social conformity to remind the individual that they are not in control. America is already awash with socialism, just look around at the rights, oh sorry you lost those ones.

That is not the same, because whatever social conservatives decree matters little as long as you have the means to break their laws.

A government that owns all productive goods however can actually make you obey, there is little to no room to break the most stupid government regulations.

Sounds more like communism than socialism. There is private industry with socialism, it’s just regulated. Here in Canada we have socialist programs and private industry. We’re not a socialist country but we do walk that fine line at times.[/quote]

That is not a black and white issue, every dime the government spends in your name could have been used by you to exercise your freedom.

[quote]orion wrote:
streamline wrote:
orion wrote:
streamline wrote:
Why is that republicans don’t see manditory drug testing, as well as drug screening as socialism hard at work. Laws that force individuals to relinquish their freedom for employment. With continuous random period of social conformity to remind the individual that they are not in control. America is already awash with socialism, just look around at the rights, oh sorry you lost those ones.

That is not the same, because whatever social conservatives decree matters little as long as you have the means to break their laws.

A government that owns all productive goods however can actually make you obey, there is little to no room to break the most stupid government regulations.

Sounds more like communism than socialism. There is private industry with socialism, it’s just regulated. Here in Canada we have socialist programs and private industry. We’re not a socialist country but we do walk that fine line at times.

That is not a black and white issue, every dime the government spends in your name could have been used by you to exercise your freedom.

[/quote]

Socialism is the grey area between communism and capitalism. Socialism has an elusive lure to it that few are able to see through. If worded right it sounds like the safe and smart way to do things. That’s how it starts, snowball to avalanche.

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:

There are some interesting socialist manifestos that in their utopia have people breed for and drafted into jobs, have your meals, vacations, and even purpose for life, planned and monitored by the government. And these same authors thought their utopias were the freest places on imaginable.

The real problem is that without fear of being fired or hope of being promoted, why work hard? Without fear of having enough for retirement, why save and invest?

So fear is what guides our lives? Do you live in fear daily? I don’t generally. I think this is a bit simplistic, but then again, I’m a meathead, so what do I know?

As for attaining socialism, let me tell you about a friend of mine. Her father was Mao’s cardiologist and, being foreign trained was declared both an enemy of the people as well as being placed under house arrest to cater to party bosses only (he was effectively a slave in a Beijing hospital). She and her sister were then thrown out of their house on the basis of their class origins and left to wander the streets for a few years (later they were arrested and sent to re-education camps too).

Now at this time in China, the Cultural Revolution was in full swing with gangs of youth ranging freely around looking for “Capitalists”. Children could ride the trains for free and eat in any factory cafeteria, so my friend painted a truly horrifying picture of almost feral, armed revolutionaries, mostly 16 and under, prowling the countryside. Much of the socialist utopianism was a reality for these kids and since everyone was terrified witless of being declared an enemy of the people, by and large there was no law and order either. This is but one example of how these sorts of ideas play themselves out in practice.

– jj[/quote]

Self interest always guides the general populous like an economic sense self preservation.

Self interest guides everyone.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Self interest guides everyone.[/quote]

I don’t think it always does on the micro level.

Example: Dad goes hungry to feed his kids. Though I guess that would be preservation of his genes. There are individuals that sacrifice with no benefit to themselves. It, however, is a recessive trait.

[quote]streamline wrote:
Why is that republicans don’t see manditory drug testing, as well as drug screening as socialism hard at work. Laws that force individuals to relinquish their freedom for employment. With continuous random period of social conformity to remind the individual that they are not in control. America is already awash with socialism, just look around at the rights, oh sorry you lost those ones. [/quote]

Mandatory drug testing is wrong. It to is a violation of freedoms. The government has not place trying to control what a person ingests. It is simply none of their business.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Self interest guides everyone.

I don’t think it always does on the micro level.

Example: Dad goes hungry to feed his kids. Though I guess that would be preservation of his genes. There are individuals that sacrifice with no benefit to themselves. It, however, is a recessive trait.[/quote]

If the father was not interested in the health of his kids he wouldn’t have acted. Do not confuse self-interest with “selfishness”. Even an act of charity is considered self interest otherwise no one would give to charity. People who give to charity derive a benefit from it – even if only on a emotional level. That is self interest.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Self interest guides everyone.

I don’t think it always does on the micro level.

Example: Dad goes hungry to feed his kids. Though I guess that would be preservation of his genes. There are individuals that sacrifice with no benefit to themselves. It, however, is a recessive trait.

If the father was not interested in the health of his kids he wouldn’t have acted. Do not confuse self-interest with “selfishness”. Even an act of charity is considered self interest otherwise no one would give to charity. People who give to charity derive a benefit from it – even if only on a emotional level. That is self interest.[/quote]

I think I have to give you the point on that part. Other than sacrifice of ones own life. Unless the person thinks they will get bonus points in the afterlife. But then, an atheist would never make that sacrifice.

[quote]pat wrote:
Socialism makes slaves of people. People are not wired to take care of a group, they are wired to take care of themselves within a group.[/quote]

This might have been the most succint explanation I read on the matter. Thank you.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why weren’t taxes being called “socialism” before now?[/quote]

They are socialism to a degree.

This is how I see communism as different to socialism. Degrees.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If you invite me as a guest in your house, do I then have the right to force you to clean, repair, behave as I deem safe? No, but I can leave.[/quote]

Its called Torts Law - its been around for quite some time in our capitalist society.