Why Do People Care About Gay Marriage?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1261

[quote]forlife wrote:

I agree. Hopefully BB will pick up our conversation when he gets back. It’s not often I find people willing to discuss issues objectively without resorting to name calling. I even find myself doing that sometimes, and have to pull myself back.[/quote]

Just looking over this thread, which I haven’t looked at in days - you do realize that the conversation ground to a halt because you of your insistence to slander your opponents as “bigots”, right?

If it’s objectivity you want, you have some work to do.

1262

Blazindave, I was asking why gay marriage would in any way be a threat to straight marriage. I appreciate your thoughts, but don’t see how anything you said relates to that question.

On the points you made though:

  1. Research has looked at the children of gay parents vs. the children of straight parents. Statistically, the fears about being raised by gay parents are unfounded. Children of gay parents are as healthy and are no more likely to be gay than children of straight parents. This conclusion is supported based on research by the major medical and mental health organizations in the world (American Academy of Pediatrics, American Medical Association, etc.).

  2. As I’ve said a few times, I couldn’t care less about marriage per se. I would be happy with a civil union granting the same legal rights and responsibilities.

1263

Thunder, I apologized for the bigotry comment earlier. I feel the discussion will be more constructive if we agree to respect one another’s motivations as being sincere and stay away from name calling on both sides.

1264

[quote]forlife wrote:
Blazindave, I was asking why gay marriage would in any way be a threat to straight marriage. I appreciate your thoughts, but don’t see how anything you said relates to that question.

On the points you made though:

  1. Research has looked at the children of gay parents vs. the children of straight parents. Statistically, the fears about being raised by gay parents are unfounded. Children of gay parents are as healthy and are no more likely to be gay than children of straight parents. This conclusion is supported based on research by the major medical and mental health organizations in the world (American Academy of Pediatrics, American Medical Association, etc.).

  2. As I’ve said a few times, I couldn’t care less about marriage per se. I would be happy with a civil union granting the same legal rights and responsibilities.[/quote]

Alright, now why do you think people should be allowed to be unified if they are gay?

1265

For many of the same reasons people should be allowed to be unified if they are straight.

It represents the love two people have for one another. It is a mutually binding legal commitment, with associated benefits and responsibilities.

The stability it provides is in the best interest of the couple, any children they may have, and society at large.

1266

[quote]forlife wrote:
For many of the same reasons people should be allowed to be unified if they are straight.

It represents the love two people have for one another. It is a mutually binding legal commitment, with associated benefits and responsibilities.

The stability it provides is in the best interest of the couple, any children they may have, and society at large.[/quote]

Society has disagreed with homosexuality for a long time.
I believe at one point it was punishable by death and still is in many other countries.

Straight people were unified because one could only be unified before God = marriage.
Then people were able to say they weren’t religious and that is how the civil union came to be (not really but whatever).

Civil union does not offer the same “benefits” nor is it existent in all the states. By definition, a man cannot marry a man nor can a woman marry a woman. Marriage is the union of a man and a woman before God.

So how does this work? Even if you do get married (where legal), the federal government would not recognize it.

Now human rights+ constitution basically guarantees equal rights for all but then what about people who want polygamy? Beastiality? Pedophilia?
You might say this claims are irrelevent but many of those practices (pedophilia was practiced and encouraged in ancient greece) have occured and still do, legally. Some individuals would probably like those things to be practiced again.

Human rights claims equality for all…but this amounts to the individual.
I’m not sure where i’m going with this, but so why should homosexuality be allowed to be married but i wouldn’t be allowed to marry 10 women? And homosexuals are allowed to be married, just not to each other :stuck_out_tongue:

And since you can’t really get federally married or have it recognized in other countries, what is the point?
Is it only for the benefits?
So please explain all of this because i am quite curious.
k thanks

1267

Slippery slope? Informed consent is a barrier to a lot of the examples you gave. Children cannot give informed consent, and animals cannot give consent period.

Polygamy, I see no problem with.

1268

[quote]blazindave wrote:
Society has disagreed with homosexuality for a long time.
I believe at one point it was punishable by death and still is in many other countries.

Straight people were unified because one could only be unified before God = marriage.
Then people were able to say they weren’t religious and that is how the civil union came to be (not really but whatever).

Civil union does not offer the same “benefits” nor is it existent in all the states. By definition, a man cannot marry a man nor can a woman marry a woman. Marriage is the union of a man and a woman before God.

So how does this work? Even if you do get married (where legal), the federal government would not recognize it.

Now human rights+ constitution basically guarantees equal rights for all but then what about people who want polygamy? Beastiality? Pedophilia?
You might say this claims are irrelevent but many of those practices (pedophilia was practiced and encouraged in ancient greece) have occured and still do, legally. Some individuals would probably like those things to be practiced again.

Human rights claims equality for all…but this amounts to the individual.
I’m not sure where i’m going with this, but so why should homosexuality be allowed to be married but i wouldn’t be allowed to marry 10 women? And homosexuals are allowed to be married, just not to each other :stuck_out_tongue:

And since you can’t really get federally married or have it recognized in other countries, what is the point?
Is it only for the benefits?
So please explain all of this because i am quite curious.
k thanks[/quote]

Yeah but society has not disagreed with homosexuality for longer than it has disagreed with it if you go back to Ancient Greece and beyond plus the pedophilia argument is kind of weak because it was a more a mentor-pupil relationship and their were many rules about what behavior was appropriate and what wasn’t plus we aren’t talking about the pupils being kids either they were typically 14-16 not 7 it was a lot more complicated than just saying they fucked kids.

Also as for it not being natural tell that to the animal kingdom look at Bonobos for example they have sex with everything. Come on you’re Canadian you are supposed to be progressive.

1269

[quote]mharmar wrote:
blazindave wrote:
Society has disagreed with homosexuality for a long time.
I believe at one point it was punishable by death and still is in many other countries.

Straight people were unified because one could only be unified before God = marriage.
Then people were able to say they weren’t religious and that is how the civil union came to be (not really but whatever).

Civil union does not offer the same “benefits” nor is it existent in all the states. By definition, a man cannot marry a man nor can a woman marry a woman. Marriage is the union of a man and a woman before God.

So how does this work? Even if you do get married (where legal), the federal government would not recognize it.

Now human rights+ constitution basically guarantees equal rights for all but then what about people who want polygamy? Beastiality? Pedophilia?
You might say this claims are irrelevent but many of those practices (pedophilia was practiced and encouraged in ancient greece) have occured and still do, legally. Some individuals would probably like those things to be practiced again.

Human rights claims equality for all…but this amounts to the individual.
I’m not sure where i’m going with this, but so why should homosexuality be allowed to be married but i wouldn’t be allowed to marry 10 women? And homosexuals are allowed to be married, just not to each other :stuck_out_tongue:

And since you can’t really get federally married or have it recognized in other countries, what is the point?
Is it only for the benefits?
So please explain all of this because i am quite curious.
k thanks

Yeah but society has not disagreed with homosexuality for longer than it has disagreed with it if you go back to Ancient Greece and beyond plus the pedophilia argument is kind of weak because it was a more a mentor-pupil relationship and their were many rules about what behavior was appropriate and what wasn’t plus we aren’t talking about the pupils being kids either they were typically 14-16 not 7 it was a lot more complicated than just saying they fucked kids.

Also as for it not being natural tell that to the animal kingdom look at Bonobos for example they have sex with everything. Come on you’re Canadian you are supposed to be progressive.
[/quote]

So then if i were to kill your family because i was hungry…that would be ok? Can i eat them or will you cry about how i’m such a savage.
You don’t mind if i take a shit on your lawn…do you?
I mean animals do it so it must be ok. Forget the whole “ya we’re civilised and all that shit”…might as well start raping women as im at it too right?
Using an " yea animals do it too" in this contexts doesn’t prove anything.

Homosexuality was common in greece, but it wasnt in asia or europe as far as i know.
The age of consent in spain is like 12 years old.
12 FUCKING YEARS OLD. In olden times, people were married at that age so i dont think greeks sleeping with 8 year old boys is so far fetched.
For the past 2000 years homosexuality has been a “sin”. So where do you get your numbers?
While we’re at it, do you approve of sleeping with children the age of 10? If not…then why?
Animals will fuck anything and it’s been occuring for thousands of years.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Slippery slope? Informed consent is a barrier to a lot of the examples you gave. Children cannot give informed consent, and animals cannot give consent period.

Polygamy, I see no problem with.[/quote]

Disagreed. A child is only as mature as you make him out to be. You train right? You probably eat meat. I find it funny that it bothers you if someone fucks an animal (or is fucked by an animal) but it’s ok if you breed it, lock it up, kill and then eat it.
This animal consent shit is bullshit (pun). Completely pointless. What the hell does that have to do with anything? lol

1270

[quote]blazindave wrote:
For the past 2000 years homosexuality has been a “sin”. So where do you get your numbers?[/quote]

Where do you get yours? It was in the year 390AD that homosexual sex and marriage was declared illegal. And that was only in Rome.

But we can’t know the extent of maturity, hence a blanket restriction of (insert age of consent) to prevent children who aren’t ready from having sex.

Welcome to T-Nation?

I have a big problem with the way we lock up animals. And IMHO, if you can’t kill an animal yourself then you have no place eating meat. We kill and eat them to provide ourselves with nutritional sustenance, much like any other predator.

Are you questioning the role of consent in sexual relations? Consent has everything to do with it, it separates us from the animals. Or at least makes us more sociable animals.

1271

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Where do you get yours? It was in the year 390AD that homosexual sex and marriage was declared illegal. And that was only in Rome.[/quote]

The…bible?

[quote]Makavali wrote:

But we can’t know the extent of maturity, hence a blanket restriction of (insert age of consent) to prevent children who aren’t ready from having sex.[/quote]
Define maturity. You can also not know the extent of maturity in adults. Take the case of Britney and Federline. Look at Tom Cruise, that guy is a fucking nut job. It’s scary that he has a kid.
Just like there are several levels of intellect…something IQ tests and SATs can’t measure…there are many levels of maturity. Maturity is based on experience and responsibility. If you never put that responsibility on someone, they won’t mature.

Agreed, but that won’t stop me from eating meat.

That’s fine and dandy. Yet if we look at animals (har har) there is no such thing as consent.
Not only that…but you can’t really force an animal to have sex. If a woman wants a dog to fuck her in the ass, then she can’t really force it to get an erection…so that’s consent right there.

To me, fucking an animal makes as much sense as fucking another guy in the ass but let people do as they will. You’re just having sex. I don’t see how that is subjecting the animal to anything at all.
The fact that you thing a consent is needed for everything is somewhat laughable.
The fact that you feed, protect, love and house the animal, some people could consider it as only fair.

1272

[quote]blazindave wrote:
The…bible?[/quote]

I won’t get into this further than saying that your basing stuff off a book that had several interpretations (and still does).

[quote]Define maturity. You can also not know the extent of maturity in adults. Take the case of Britney and Federline. Look at Tom Cruise, that guy is a fucking nut job. It’s scary that he has a kid.
Just like there are several levels of intellect…something IQ tests and SATs can’t measure…there are many levels of maturity. Maturity is based on experience and responsibility. If you never put that responsibility on someone, they won’t mature.[/quote]

The system isn’t perfect.

If you stopped eating meat I’d call your manliness into question.

[quote]That’s fine and dandy. Yet if we look at animals (har har) there is no such thing as consent.
Not only that…but you can’t really force an animal to have sex. If a woman wants a dog to fuck her in the ass, then she can’t really force it to get an erection…so that’s consent right there.

To me, fucking an animal makes as much sense as fucking another guy in the ass but let people do as they will. You’re just having sex. I don’t see how that is subjecting the animal to anything at all.
The fact that you thing a consent is needed for everything is somewhat laughable.
The fact that you feed, protect, love and house the animal, some people could consider it as only fair.[/quote]

I’m sorry, but by your logic then a man fucking a woman should be the same as a woman fucking a dog.

1273

Yeah lions eat gazelle too but they don’t fuck them first. Listen you’re are only 19 I believe you haven’t had enough experience to really expand your world view, you still use the bible and God in arguments like they have any merit whatsoever. Why don’t you go be around some homosexuals and realize they are no different than you and I except they like to have sex with the members of the same gender.

1274

[quote]mharmar wrote:

So then if i were to kill your family because i was hungry…that would be ok? Can i eat them or will you cry about how i’m such a savage.
You don’t mind if i take a shit on your lawn…do you?
I mean animals do it so it must be ok. Forget the whole “ya we’re civilised and all that shit”…might as well start raping women as im at it too right?
Using an " yea animals do it too" in this contexts doesn’t prove anything.[/quote]

Wow straw man argument much. I was referring to the homosexuality is not natural argument not arguing the merits of the morals of animals. [/quote]

Bullshit. We define what is natural by morality and thats what separates us from animals.

[quote]mharmar wrote:
Homosexuality was common in greece, but it wasnt in asia or europe as far as i know.
The age of consent in spain is like 12 years old.
12 FUCKING YEARS OLD. In olden times, people were married at that age so i dont think greeks sleeping with 8 year old boys is so far fetched.
For the past 2000 years homosexuality has been a “sin”. So where do you get your numbers?
While we’re at it, do you approve of sleeping with children the age of 10? If not…then why?
Animals will fuck anything and it’s been occuring for thousands of years.

I think you need to study history some more, typically in Ancient Greece females were married when they were 16, not 12. Did you know many Japanese Samurai were in homosexual relationships also Homosexuality in Japan - Wikipedia

Disagreed. A child is only as mature as you make him out to be. You train right? You probably eat meat. I find it funny that it bothers you if someone fucks an animal (or is fucked by an animal) but it’s ok if you breed it, lock it up, kill and then eat it.
This animal consent shit is bullshit (pun). Completely pointless. What the hell does that have to do with anything? lol

Yeah lions eat gazelle too but they don’t fuck them first. Listen you’re are only 19 I believe you haven’t had enough experience to really expand your world view, you still use the bible and God in arguments like they have any merit whatsoever. Why don’t you go be around some homosexuals and realize they are no different than you and I except they like to have sex with the members of the same gender.
[/quote]

I have had plenty of world view…trust me.
Lions eat gazelles but they don’t fuck them first. No, but rabbits fuck chickens…so that evens it out. Doesn’t mean every animal will fucking every other animal.
I have homosexual friends too. I never said gay people were different, all i said was that i don’t see how you can accept gay marriage and not accept the other sorts of marriages either.
Would you agree with polygamy?
And who says the bible and God arguments have no merits?
In God we trust. I do wonder.

And you are completely missing the point. I’m not talking about whether homosexuality is wrong or right. I’m talking about the validity of homosexual MARRIAGE. So yes the bible and God will come into play. That’s where the word comes from. I’m sure alot of people in many parts of the world had gay sex. I’m sure many arabs, irish, african, etc had gay sex as well but i am not talking about gay sex i am talking about fucking GAY MARRIAGE. I shall write it again. Gay. Marriage.

Gay marriage? Gay marriage.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
I’m sorry, but by your logic then a man fucking a woman should be the same as a woman fucking a dog.[/quote]

Explain.

1275

But why the Bible? What makes that the forefront of your decision? I’m sure a lot of non-Christians would take offense to being dictated to by a religious book, not to mention the atheists.

1276

[quote]blazindave wrote:
Makavali wrote:
I’m sorry, but by your logic then a man fucking a woman should be the same as a woman fucking a dog.

Explain.[/quote]

You say if it’s just sex then it’s the same as a dog and human having sex. Not all male/female sexual relations are for the sole purpose of procreating but are for recreation. Meaning it’s… just sex.

1277

[quote]Makavali wrote:
But why the Bible? What makes that the forefront of your decision? I’m sure a lot of non-Christians would take offense to being dictated to by a religious book, not to mention the atheists.[/quote]

You asked a question and he answered. No one is saying a damn thing about dictating from a religious book to anyone.

1278

[quote]blazindave wrote:
Society has disagreed with homosexuality for a long time.[/quote]

Depends on which society you want to cite. As far back as the Greeks and Romans, homosexuality was very common and socially accepted.

Regardless, what about social progress? Society sanctioned slavery for a long time, but that didn’t make it right.

Unless civil union offers the same civil responsibilities and benefits as marriage, I wouldn’t support it. I couldn’t care less whether religions recognize my union with my partner; I’m only interested in the civil rights and responsibilities.

By whose definition? In Massachusetts and California, marriage is between two loving, committed adults regardless of their gender. Likewise in several countries around the world, and the number is growing.

That is why “leaving it to the states” isn’t acceptable. Until gay marriage/civil unions are recognized at the federal level, there will not be true equality.

We’ve discussed this extensively, but in a nutshell I believe loving, informed, adults should be able to marry except when doing so is inherently harmful. In cases like beastility and pedophilia, there is no informed consent and the potential harm to children is unacceptable. I don’t know enough about the research on polygamy to have an opinion on whether or not it is inherently harmful. I think each case should be evaluated and considered on its own merits.

I’ll say it again:

Allowing gays to marry is beneficial to the couple, to any children they may have, and to society in general. The major medical and mental health organizations have done the research and reached this conclusion, and I agree with them.

1279

[quote]blazindave wrote:
So then if i were to kill your family because i was hungry…that would be ok?[/quote]

No, because you are causing harm to others. Gay marriage doesn’t harm anyone, but it does benefit the couple and society.

It shows that homosexuality is a natural phenomenon. People don’t choose to be gay any more than they choose to be straight. Whatever way you’re wired, that determines who you find attractive and can love fully and completely.

This alone is enough to show that homosexuality hasn’t always been rejected by society. Homosexuality has been accepted in other countries/cultures as well, both ancient and modern.

Don’t confuse sexual orientation with pedophilia. Men have slept with 8 year old girls too, but that doesn’t make heterosexuality evil.

There are many religions in the world that don’t view homosexuality as a “sin”, including a large number of Christian faiths. Of course, people always view their particular brand of religion as the “real truth”, but that doesn’t make it objectively so.

Religion and state are kept separate for good reason.

1280

[quote]blazindave wrote:
I’m not talking about whether homosexuality is wrong or right. I’m talking about the validity of homosexual MARRIAGE. So yes the bible and God will come into play. That’s where the word comes from.[/quote]

Are you implying that marriage didn’t exist before the bible? I’m sure you know that marriage has existed in many countries and cultures which don’t have a Judeo-Christian history.

I respect the right of people to believe in whatever holy book they want to believe in, but they shouldn’t try to force their religious beliefs on others.

Especially when people are inconsistent in their application. I love how people quote scriptures from the bible on homosexuality, while ignoring scriptures about slavery, women speaking in church, wearing mixed fibers, or eating shellfish. If you’re going to enforce the bible, do all of it or none of it. Better yet, keep it to your church or synagogue and leave religion out of government policies and laws.