Why Do People Care About Gay Marriage?

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
In this case, the CA Supreme Court made stuff up. It’s not even a hard case in which to make that conclusion. The text hasn’t changed in 100 years, and absolutely no one is making the argument that anyone who passed the original Constitutional language had any intention to create, or any understanding that they were creating, a right to marriage.

forlife wrote:
The Constitutional right to marriage was invoked decades ago in litigation related to mixed racial marriages. It isn’t surprising to see the same right invoked today in litigation related to gay marriages. It wasn’t “made up” during the civil rights movement for equality based on race, nor is it “made up” during the civil rights movement for equality based on sexual orientation.[/quote]

Invoked in litigation? By whom? The attorneys? Where is it in the Constitution of either California or the United States?

If it’s not there, it’s made up. The CA Court gets credit because they made it up in the context of the CA Constitution.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
In the case of gay marriage, if it changes underlying attitudes about the importance and function of marriage, particularly in the younger generation, you will have a greater likelihood of the type of problems people bring up w/r/t marriage rates and stability.

forlife wrote:
How would gay marriage detrimentally change underlying attitudes about the “importance and function of marriage”?

Encouraging same sex couples to commit to a lifetime union rather than cycling from one relationship to the next would improve stability in society, not diminish it. It would emphasize the importance and function of marriage to an even greater degree.[/quote]

I’m not repeating the first 20 pages of this thread again - sorry, I know you joined late, but I’ve not the time.

Read these:

http://www.gideonsblog.blogspot.com/2003_07_01_gideonsblog_archive.html#105952165206390107

Then read these:

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005/01/marriage-schmarriage-by-gail-heriot-at.html

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005/01/marriage-schmarriage-part-ii-by-gail.html

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005/01/marriage-schmarriage-part-iii.html

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005/01/marriage-schmarriage-part-iv-edmund.html

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005/01/marriage-schmarriage-part-v-same-sex.html

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005/01/marriage-schmarriage-part-vi-will-same.html

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005/01/marriage-schmarriage-part-vii-partial.html

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Why? In both cases it’s essentially being disallowed from claiming a particular government-created benefit that attaches based on satisfying a precondition. It matters not a whit whether you choose your sexual orientation.

forlife wrote:
I wonder if you would make the same comparison if marriage was denied you. You are living in an ivory tower, pontificating about tax brackets with no idea what it is like not being able to marry the person that you love and want to spend the rest of your life with. [/quote]

Au contraire. No one is stopping you from marrying the person you love, nor from spending the rest of your life with him. You can have a ceremony, buy the rings, buy a house together and live happily ever after. What you are being denied is a particular set of legal benefits - and the ones that are not tax-related (including social security) can generally be contracted. Perhaps hospital visitation can’t - I’m not sure - but that could always be addressed separately, as I pointed out above.

The bottom line, in my view, is that the government is not required to extend a benefit to you in order to make you feel better about yourself and your relationship.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
And if you want hospital-visitation rights, pass a law allowing anyone designated by the patient to be allowed to visit the patient. That doesn’t need to be included in a marriage discussion.

forlife wrote:
So we should pass hundreds of individual laws granting the same rights to gay couples, rather than one simple law allowing them to marry? If you want to talk about administrative burden, the former is far more complex and resource intensive than the latter.[/quote]

No, just the one would do - that would address the issue from the perspective of patients, and would do so more broadly than a marriage extension.

As for gay couples, I would be for a separate status - call it “domestic partnership”, which would not be available to heterosexual couples and could be crafted to meet the needs of gay couples particularly.

New information to the effect that it would have no effect, or a positive effect, on traditional marriage, would change my mind on the advisability of including gays in marriage.

An amendment to the Constitution would change my mind about whether there is a Constitutional right to marriage.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Assuming no causation, based on nothing, is worse science.[/quote]

Wrong. Have you ever taken a stats class? The null hypothesis is assumed to be true, until it is rejected by the evidence.

In a case where causality is unknown, science requires assuming no causal relationship exists unless one can be demonstrated.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Invoked in litigation? By whom? The attorneys? Where is it in the Constitution of either California or the United States?

If it’s not there, it’s made up. The CA Court gets credit because they made it up in the context of the CA Constitution.[/quote]

Racial equality in marriage is not specifically mentioned in the Constitution, but that doesn’t mean judges are “making things up” when they rule that the rights granted through the Constitution include the right to marriage equality for mixed race couples. Ditto for marriage equality when it comes to sexual orientation.

If you’re defining “making things up” as “anything not specifically mentioned in the Constitution”, there has been a LOT of “making things up” in the course of our 200 year history as a nation (including all the court rulings favoring “conservative” values).

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Invoked in litigation? By whom? The attorneys? Where is it in the Constitution of either California or the United States?

If it’s not there, it’s made up. The CA Court gets credit because they made it up in the context of the CA Constitution.

forlife wrote:
Racial equality in marriage is not specifically mentioned in the Constitution, but that doesn’t mean judges are “making things up” when they rule that the rights granted through the Constitution include the right to marriage equality for mixed race couples. Ditto for marriage equality when it comes to sexual orientation.[/quote]

Race equality IS specifically mentioned in the Constitution. One can argue about the exact meaning, but the Civil War amendments were particularly targeted at taking away the right of the government to discriminate based on race. Those also bind the state governments, BTW, so it wouldn’t necessarily need to be in a state constitution.

Sexual orientation is NOT mentioned - and including it would be making things up.

I am specifically calling “making things up” the process of changing - either expanding or contracting - the original public meaning of the written Constitution by the judiciary.

As for the judiciary making things up - yes, it has been a large problem. Particularly post FDR’s failed court-packing scheme, up through the Rehnquist Court - with particular fault laid at the feet of Earl Warren. However, that is not a reason to continue it, or ignore it.

BTW, please feel free to cite one or two specific examples of originalists making stuff up.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I know you joined late, but I’ve not the time.[/quote]

I looked over your links at a high level, but like you I don’t have the time to review and respond to such a mountain of information.

How about we make it easy and start here:

Of all the reasons discussed in the links you provided, what do you consider to be the most compelling argument showing that gay marriage would be less beneficial, rather than more beneficial, to society?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Au contraire. No one is stopping you from marrying the person you love, nor from spending the rest of your life with him.[/quote]

So you wouldn’t object if a federal law was passed dissolving all existing marriages from a civil perspective? You could still have your ceremony, buy the rings, buy a house together, and live happily ever after.

Would you support a “domestic partnership” if it provided all the same federal benefits to gay couples that are currently provided to straight couples?

[quote]New information to the effect that it would have no effect, or a positive effect, on traditional marriage, would change my mind on the advisability of including gays in marriage.
[/quote]

Would you change your mind if you knew gay marriage would have positive consequences for society, apart from any effect specifically on traditional marriage?

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Assuming no causation, based on nothing, is worse science.

forlife wrote:
Wrong. Have you ever taken a stats class? The null hypothesis is assumed to be true, until it is rejected by the evidence.

In a case where causality is unknown, science requires assuming no causal relationship exists unless one can be demonstrated.[/quote]

I got an A in stats, but that was a long time ago.

The overarching issue is whether you can change the nature of marriage without deleterious effect. That is the presumption that you need to test against.

Side question: What’s the null hypothesis with regard to anthropocentric global warming?

Obviously, this isn’t just a stats problem. You cannot just assume you won’t cause a problem because it has not yet been established that something previously untried would not cause a problem.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Race equality IS specifically mentioned in the Constitution.[/quote]

My point was that the Constitution doesn’t specifically guarantee the right of mixed race couples to marry. By your broad definition, because this right isn’t specifically mentioned, any judicial decisions on the matter must be “made up”.

The Constitution cannot cover every contingency, so obviously judges need to interpret its broad principles and apply them to specific cases. Doing so doesn’t mean they are “making things up”.

You might argue that since general language is included on racial equality, specific decisions on mixed race marriage are axiomatic. However, that is an arbitrary line in the sand.

You could make similar arguments based on general language regarding the inalienable right of people to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. How specific does the Constitution have to be before you are willing to grant that judges aren’t “making things up”?

You’re the one accusing judges (liberal judges, in particular) of making things up. I’m not so presumptious. I don’t believe conservative judges make things up any more than liberal judges do. They simply have a different interpretation of the intent and application of Constitutional law.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Au contraire. No one is stopping you from marrying the person you love, nor from spending the rest of your life with him.

forlife wrote:
So you wouldn’t object if a federal law was passed dissolving all existing marriages from a civil perspective? You could still have your ceremony, buy the rings, buy a house together, and live happily ever after.[/quote]

I probably would object, just like I object now to my tax rate. But I wouldn’t have any Constitutional right to stop it from happening.

To paraphrase Thunder and myself from another thread, the fact that one doesn’t like a law - or even the fact that a law is a bad law - does not make a law Unconstitutional. In this case, I think the law is incomplete, because I would support that separate status for gay couples.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
As for gay couples, I would be for a separate status - call it “domestic partnership”, which would not be available to heterosexual couples and could be crafted to meet the needs of gay couples particularly.

forlife wrote:
Would you support a “domestic partnership” if it provided all the same federal benefits to gay couples that are currently provided to straight couples?[/quote]

I’d rather it wasn’t exactly the same - because there’s no particular value in being exactly the same, and I think that if we studied it we could come up with something better suited to the particular incentives we would want to put in place for gay couples. Whatever benefits there are should tie to how hard it is to get into, and out of, the status.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
New information to the effect that it would have no effect, or a positive effect, on traditional marriage, would change my mind on the advisability of including gays in marriage.

forlife wrote:
Would you change your mind if you knew gay marriage would have positive consequences for society, apart from any effect specifically on traditional marriage?[/quote]

That would depend on what those positive consequences were - but not apart from any effect on traditional marriage. I’d be willing to do a balancing analysis, taking into account effects on traditional marriage.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
The overarching issue is whether you can change the nature of marriage without deleterious effect. That is the presumption that you need to test against.[/quote]

I never said otherwise. My objection was to your claim that the hypothetical deleterious effect should be assumed in the absence of compelling evidence.

Science requires the opposite: the null hypothesis is assumed unless proven otherwise.

Therefore, we should assume there is no deleterious effect of gay marriage unless objective, reliable evidence demonstrates otherwise.

By definition, the null hypothesis assumes no causal relationship exists between two variables. In this case, we should assume that men don’t cause global warming unless there is objective, reliable evidence to the contrary.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I’d rather it wasn’t exactly the same - because there’s no particular value in being exactly the same, and I think that if we studied it we could come up with something better suited to the particular incentives we would want to put in place for gay couples. Whatever benefits there are should tie to how hard it is to get into, and out of, the status.[/quote]

Why is there no particular value in it being exactly the same? Do you think it would be harder to get into, or out of, gay marriage as opposed to straight marriage?

That sounds fair enough.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Race equality IS specifically mentioned in the Constitution.

forlife wrote:
My point was that the Constitution doesn’t specifically guarantee the right of mixed race couples to marry. By your broad definition, because this right isn’t specifically mentioned, any judicial decisions on the matter must be “made up”.

The Constitution cannot cover every contingency, so obviously judges need to interpret its broad principles and apply them to specific cases. Doing so doesn’t mean they are “making things up”.

You might argue that since general language is included on racial equality, specific decisions on mixed race marriage are axiomatic. However, that is an arbitrary line in the sand. [/quote]

You don’t seem to understand what you’re talking about.

There is an obvious difference between applying a principle to a novel situation, and changing the meaning of the principle to suit a new agenda.

For example, in Kyllo v. the United States ( http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-8508.ZO.html ) the USSC was confronted with the question of whether government’s use of infrared scanning technology to “look through” the walls of a house constituted a “search” under the meaning of the 4th Amendment. It was novel because the technology obviously didn’t exist at the time the 4th Amendment was passed - so the court had to look to the meaning of the 4th Amendment and decide if it applied. Scalia, writing the majority opinion, held that it was a “search” under the meaning of the 4th Amendment based on what a “search” meant at the time. To quote from note 1 “When the Fourth Amendment was adopted, as now, to “search” meant “[t]o look over or through for the purpose of finding something; to explore; to examine by inspection; as, to search the house for a book; to search the wood for a thief.” N. Webster, An American Dictionary of the English Language 66 (1828) (reprint 6th ed. 1989).”

That is the essence of the function of the judiciary. To interpret the law in cases in which it’s not clear what it meant, or how it would apply to novel circumstances.

Now, contrast that to the example of the CA Supreme Court. It took the CA Constitution massively expanded its meaning from what was intended when it was passed. No one even tried to argue that anyone in the entire state of California thought he was passing a right of equality under the law based on sexual orientation when the CA Constitution was passed, or on any subsequent amendment - nor a right of any individual to marriage.

That is making up new meanings for existing law. That is functionally equivalent to passing laws, or amending them - that is usurpation of power by the judiciary.

I’m glad you realize the Constitution can’t cover every contingency - what you need to grasp is that it isn’t supposed to do that, either.

[quote]forlife wrote:

You could make similar arguments based on general language regarding the inalienable right of people to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. How specific does the Constitution have to be before you are willing to grant that judges aren’t “making things up”? [/quote]

Really, there’s a right in the Constitution to pursuit of happiness? Care to cite the section? Hint: You may want to look in another document…

You have the right to life and liberty of course. What you do not have the right to is a set of government benefits.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
BTW, please feel free to cite one or two specific examples of originalists making stuff up.

forlife wrote:
You’re the one accusing judges (liberal judges, in particular) of making things up. I’m not so presumptious. [/quote]

To quote you from above:

Feel free to cite one or two examples of originalists doing this.

[quote]
forlife wrote:

I don’t believe conservative judges make things up any more than liberal judges do. They simply have a different interpretation of the intent and application of Constitutional law.[/quote]

Activist judges make stuff up all the time - they don’t believe they are bound by the “dead hand” of the meaning of what was actually passed.

ADDENDUM: Former Scalia clerk Ed Whelan helpfully posts a weekly note titled “This Week in Liberal Judicial Activism” (it notes rulings and also talks about judicial confirmation hearings), and talks about what he means by “liberal judicial activism”:

http://bench.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWMyNzlmOGZhOWQ5YjY0YjNmYmI5MGM5Y2MxMzM3ZDU=

EXCERPT:

[i]Let me offer a few points of explanation of what I mean by the term “liberal judicial activism”:

  1. For rulings on questions of constitutional law, I will identify judicial decisions that wrongly override laws or policies that flow from the democratic processes and instead entrench, in the name of the Constitution, liberal policy preferences.

  2. I intend to use the term “judicial passivism” for judicial decisions that make the opposite error - that fail to enforce constitutional guarantees. Because the two errors are often related - it’s no surprise that justices and judges who embrace the make-it-up-as-you-go-along approach to inventing rights that aren’t in the Constitution also will ignore rights that are in it - I may occasionally include instances of liberal judicial passivism.

  3. For rulings on non-constitutional questions, I will identify judicial decisions that implausibly construe legal texts to reach liberal policy results.

  4. I will not be not probing the subjective motivations of judges. To identify a decision as an instance of liberal judicial activism does not necessarily mean that I am alleging that the judges responsible for the decision have indulged, deliberately or otherwise, their own policy preferences, though I certainly believe that often to be the case. It might instead be that they misconceive the judicial role or that they simply err. In terms of the injury done to American citizens’ power of self-governance, the cause of the error is of little interest.[/i]

To clarify point 1 above, by “wrongly,” he means they don’t follow the original public meaning of the Constitution.

I also offer you a few of his most recent examples:

http://bench.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZjlkOTNiYjUyYjRiOTBlMGVlNzJkYTZjMmFhNTQyNTg=

http://bench.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZTlkMjg5ODNhNWNiYWU5ZmU3YTlmZjAzZjUzOGU0ZTk=

http://bench.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MjQ0ZmJlMzhhM2Q1OTI1NWRmM2YzMThlYzMxZWZhNTA=

http://bench.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YjM2ZDIzZDU4ZTM1MjdjYzI1ZGVlNzgzNzZiYWY2ZWY=

http://bench.nationalreview.com/post/?q=N2FiMmZlNDA3MDAyZjI5N2Y2MzA4YmYxOTgxOWYxZmE=

Finally, here is a good normative explanation of why originalism is important and preferred, from Prof. Mike Rappaport of USD Law:

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2005/06/normative-basis-of-originalism-by-mike.html

EXCERPT:

[i]Laws that must pass under a strict supermajority rule are apt to be better than laws passed by majority rule. While the specific effects of supermajority rules depend on the type of laws being passed, the circumstances, and the model of the legislative process that one employs, one can make certain generalizations. First, that supermajority rules require the approval of a greater percentage of the legislature operates to protect minority interests from being exploited. Second, the greater support required under supermajority rules also means that laws must in general produce significant public benefits in order to pass. (For other arguments, see the paper.) While supermajority rules don’t make sense in all circumstances, they are desirable when applied to the passage of constitutional norms that will be entrenched against change by ordinary legislative majorities.

The supermajoritarian process for enacting constitutional norms provides a reason why constitutional provisions should be preferred to ordinary statutes passed under majority voting rules: the constitutional norms are likely to be of higher quality than ordinary legislation. The supermajoritarian process also suggests that the Constitution should be given its original meaning: it is only the original meaning of the provisions that would have been reviewed by the participants in the strict supermajoritan process.

Both Brian and the paper he cites to by Andrei Marmor miss this argument. They contend that absent the people consenting to the Constitution which has not occured, there is no reason to treat its original meaning as authoritative unless the Framers had some “special expertise.” But it is not who the Framers were that justifies following their Constitution, it is the supermajoritarian process by which they enacted the Constitution. This process also justifies not following their handiwork when the Constitution has been amended.

This supermajoritarian defense of the Constitution is reinforced by the fact that original meaning interpretation guides and constrains judges. Under the loose interpretive approach favored by Marmor and most liberal academics, there is little to stop the Supreme Court Justices from imposing their own views on the nation. Since this amounts to constitutional amendment by a majority of 9 unelected judges, as opposed to constitutional amendment by a supermajority of elected officials, this process of judicial amendment is far worse than following the original meaning.

In the end, then, originalism is justified because it enforces provisions enacted in a process that suggests they will be desirable and assigns to judges the task of enforcing, not making, the law.[/i]

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
I’d rather it wasn’t exactly the same - because there’s no particular value in being exactly the same, and I think that if we studied it we could come up with something better suited to the particular incentives we would want to put in place for gay couples. Whatever benefits there are should tie to how hard it is to get into, and out of, the status.

forlife wrote:
Why is there no particular value in it being exactly the same? Do you think it would be harder to get into, or out of, gay marriage as opposed to straight marriage?[/quote]

Because the situations aren’t exactly analogous, so why tie your hands in trying to design something? You could make it harder or easier, depending on what you’re trying to incentivize.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
The overarching issue is whether you can change the nature of marriage without deleterious effect. That is the presumption that you need to test against.

forlife wrote:
I never said otherwise. My objection was to your claim that the hypothetical deleterious effect should be assumed in the absence of compelling evidence.

Science requires the opposite: the null hypothesis is assumed unless proven otherwise.

Therefore, we should assume there is no deleterious effect of gay marriage unless objective, reliable evidence demonstrates otherwise.[/quote]

That may be what we should assume as a matter of statistics - and for the purpose of science. However, policy making is not science, and should not be treated as if it is. Science is solely interested in getting an answer (and perhaps the process of getting the answer) - for policy purposes, you need to take into account the impact of being wrong. It’s not as if in assuming away the incorrectness of the null hypothesis you eliminate - or even change - the probability that it’s incorrect.

ADDENDUM: This is also a good article on the overarching subject:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=13451&R=13B5A2AE69

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
I know you joined late, but I’ve not the time.

forlife wrote:
I looked over your links at a high level, but like you I don’t have the time to review and respond to such a mountain of information.

How about we make it easy and start here:

Of all the reasons discussed in the links you provided, what do you consider to be the most compelling argument showing that gay marriage would be less beneficial, rather than more beneficial, to society?[/quote]

The condensed explanation is that any further weakening to the rate of formation, or increase in the rate of destruction, of traditional marriages would be less beneficial to society (mostly via effects on kids, and then their effects on society) - and that due to the relative sizes of the respective populations (heterosexuals v homosexuals), such negative effects would swamp any positive effects for homosexuals.

[quote]forlife wrote:

Exactly. Don’t you agree that promoting fidelity and monogamy for gay couples is a good thing?[/quote]

It can - but it must be weighed against the costs of setting up such an arrangement. I have spent over 30 pages explaining why I think those costs are too high.

There seems to be this erroneous view that being against gay marriage equals thinking gay marriage is “evil”. I don’t think that, and I think the arrangement could produce benefits in certain instances. My problem with it is not that it produces no benefits to anyone, but that it endangers an institution that is far more important to society, and the benefits do not outweigh the risks and costs.

[quote]forlife wrote:

Ok, that helps me understand your stance better. So your view is that it would be administratively impossible to accommodate all varieties of polygamy. You might be able to administratively support some forms of polygamy, but not all.[/quote]

That is correct.

Absolutely not, under your theory of a rights-based approach. You said all consenting adults relationships are of equal worth - as such, under your rights-theory, there is no qualitative difference and all deserve the right of marriage.

No, it still doesn’t, and I have explained this more than once. see below.

[quote]In order to support legislation for a form of marriage, two preconditions must exist:

  1. The marriage must be a consensual contract between informed adults

  2. The marriage must be administratively supportable

The first applies to both gay and polygamous marriages, but the second does not. Only gay marriage meets both preconditions.[/quote]

Completely false, under a rights-theory approach. You are being as arbitrary as the folks you claim to are denying you equal rights. Under a rights-theory approach, consenting adults relationships have a right to the same institution you do - and a right is not based on convenience or ease. It is a right, which means it is a claim on society that must be provided come hell or high water.

You draw up false, arbitrary preconditions to those “rights” that deny others their rights. Your reason #2 is nothing more than the same denial of rights you claim anti-gay marriage advocates are erecting against you.

As such, under a rights-theory approach - your approach, remember - all consenting adults must, as a logical endpoint, be “equalized”. As I mentioned in the race-based analogy, if you can’t create something that equalizes the rights of all, you have to get rid of the law that grants limited privileges to a few.

But no matter - you’d deny those rights to other adults so long as you can get what you want out of it. Your problem is that your philosophies aren’t adding up - you believe that all consenting adult relationships are inherently equal as a matter of right, but you are more than happy to make gay marriage “more equal” than everything else.

It may or may not - you asked the question without singling out gay marriage. Your premise may not be true on the basis that it encourages children in relationships outside of the biological parents - which we don’t want to do.

You’ve “poisoned the well” on the question - is foster care categorically bad? Maybe it is - but you assume away the argument that it might be fine.

Again, a mistake - I haven’t mentioned anything about a “foregone conclusion”. In fact, I have approached from the opposite - we don’t know what the conclusion will be, so based on what we know, is it worth it to experiment when the stakes are so high?

And, back to your abuse of the “open mindedness” canard - and it is getting old. If you give an honest assessment of my posts here, it should be clear I have thought about what I think gay marriage would do to traditional marriage. You don’t have to agree, but my conclusions are based on an “open mind” - I have examined the arguments on both sides, and come down on the side that makes the most sense to me.

Enough with the “open mind” claim. It’s curious that me thinking gay marriage is not a great idea is “insisting” without an open mind, but should I get closer and closer to your opinion on the matter, I’m more and more “open minded”?

It’s predictable and unoriginal.

More to the point - I don’t want to wait for “enough time to pass” to see if gay marriage doesn’t hurt traditional marriage: my entire thesis is that it isn’t worth finding out on the (1) basis of what we know and the (2) very high stakes involved. You want to “give it a try” and me to sit back and “give it a chance”. I think, and have argued over and over and over and over, that “giving it a chance” is precisely the bad idea we should avoid.

Translated: it isn’t worth the risk to find out.

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous - I have, over 40 pages, argued exactly why I think so, from nearly every single angle requested.

And yet, you again suddenly ask, as if I have never typed a thing: why do you think gay marriage would hurt traditional marriage?

Why this insistence on trying to go back to the original question nearly every single response you write?

I have reached a conclusion based on the available information and the presented arguments for both sides. I have considered both angles, and come to an idea that gay marriage would be bad for traditional marriage, and thus bad for society.

Because of the risks involved, I think it is a bad idea to experiment and discover how gay marriage affects traditional marriage. It is akin to deciding not to go down a dark hallway I think is filled with danger - if I think there is a good chance of something bad happening, I am not likely to go skipping down the hall to then, at the end, do an evaluation about whether my concerns about danger were true or false.

Such is the nature of decisionmaking, particularly when the stakes are so high - as it is in this case with one of the most, if not the most, important institution in Western civilization.

As I mentioned to Makavali, we already see the high costs of what a weakened institution of traditional marriage has done to us - see inner cities for a painful example - it would be a fool’s errand to take risks that might jeopardize even further.

That’s rational, and the conclusion was reached with an “open mind”. Well, if you follow the conventional definition and not the definition that says “open mind = agrees with me”.

So, barring something compelling, I am not likely to change my mind on the issue, not because I am obstinate, bigoted (per the lazy suggestion 'round here), or grumpy, but because I have actually thought about the issue quite a bit.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
That is the essence of the function of the judiciary. To interpret the law in cases in which it’s not clear what it meant, or how it would apply to novel circumstances.[/quote]

You know as well as I do that a judge’s political views and values frame the view of whether or not a decision is constitutionally justified. Most judges, regardless of liberal/conservative bent, believe that they are genuinely representing the principles and intent of the Constitution. Whether it is more appropriate to follow the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law depends on the judge’s perspective.

I’m willing to grant that judges in both camps are sincere, but you seem to demonize those judges that reach decisions that disagree with your personal views. Only those that you agree with are acting properly, right?

Not according to the California and Massachusetts Supreme Courts. If I were a citizen of either state, I would be entitled to those same rights regardless of what you might claim the Constitution requires.

The identical criticism could be applied to conservative judges, and anyone with a fair mindset could see that. Both conservative and liberal judges are human beings that are subject to human biases, and it is naive to claim otherwise.