[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I have no problem with the Tao Te Ching for this reason. The same can’t be said about Christianity as it is constantly making itself out to be the one objective truth.
I apologize for comparing you to Pat before.[/quote]
I have a problem with secularism. What’s your point?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I would have gone unnoticed and been considered boring and average in the American colonies.
[/quote]
Yes, except the American colonies weren’t exactly the high light of Christian sanctification history.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I would have gone unnoticed and been considered boring and average in the American colonies.
[/quote]Yes, except the American colonies weren’t exactly the high light of Christian sanctification history. [/quote]When would this high point in history be? I do appreciate that you recognize that I would have been quite average at the time of the revolution. Regardless of where else on the scale of history that period belongs.
Elder Forlife is on an absolute roll on this page. he is doin my work for me. That is actually not a sarcastic statement at all. He is stating precisely the utter futility of autonomous human reason.
[quote]Elder Forlife wrote:<<< Tiribulus makes one mighty assumption, that his god is a real being, and all of his beliefs flow from this seminal assumption.
Pat claims that his beliefs derive from logic, but even if that were indisputably true, logic itself is based on unprovable assumptions (like the assumption of non-contradiction).>>>[/quote]This is absolutely beautiful =]. My hat comes waaay off to this one. You have quite inadvertently, yet ever so rightly discerned that ol Patty here has exalted logic above the throne of God. All my beliefs flow from the triune God of scripture as my self consciously preeminent utterly FIRST all defining principle. Pat (following Aquinas) holds that EVERYTHING including God is subject to logic as the first all defining principle. I hasten to add that he is not to be unduly singled out in this regard. This is the state of self exalted autonomous man. He just happens to be the individual that occasioned for you these very worthwhile posts as right and wrong as they are.
Right in that you have very astutely identified the prison of uncertainty occupied not only by the overt Christ denying unbeliever, but also by the unwitting theist who persists in worshiping a contingent god.
But then wrong in that you steadfastly refuse, because of deadness in sin, to recognize the only remedy. That being a new birth by grace through faith into the very family of the God who alone is altogether non-contingent and hence altogether certain of absolutely everything. Being born into the life of this God and voluntarily surrendering to Him all that one is (in that order) brings with it His certainty derived directly from Him. That CANNOT be seen by anybody for whom it is not already a reality. The apostle Paul said so himself.
Ohhhh Elder Forlife. Not the machinations of men, nor the sword of governments, not the groping hand of my own carnality or the merciless onslaught of the legions of hell can produce in me the faintest odor of doubt. The faithful triumphant conquering king of all that is has sealed me with His Spirit of promise and I will not be moved. I will take every breath including my last in grateful adoring service to my savior who loved me and died for me while I was fully deserving of His eternal wrath. I do pray that you will one day be able to earnestly say the same.
yep.
“autonomous human reason” is a prison.
You can escape it at any time. You just have to become irrationnal.
Then you doesn’t feel and suffer this captivity anymore. Now, there is just Hope.
no eyes. no more walls.
no ears. no more cries.
you just forgot the “no mouth” part of wisdom 
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
When would this high point in history be? I do appreciate that you recognize that I would have been quite average at the time of the revolution.
[/quote]
Most recently? The 20th Century, with 45 million martyrs for the faith out of 70 million. Another point in time was the first few centuries, we had our King and Pope martyred as well as pretty much every Bishop we had at the time.
Yeah, except I never acknowledge that. I’m not a puritan nor do I like puritanism. Further…I haven’t much study of the Revolution. I’m still working on the 1-4th century and recently jumped ahead to Renaissance because of a class.
[quote]kamui wrote:<<< You can escape it at any time. You just have to become irrationnal. >>>[/quote]Absolutely. Because driving through life in a vehicle of inescapable pragmatic certainty down a narrow single lane road of self declared intellectually terminal UNcertainty is oh so very rational indeed.
But alas you will no doubt respond with something like: “yeahbut (Hebrew word? =] ) you do the exact same thing only in a different though equally uncertain vehicle”. At least that’s what I’d say if I were you.
You will never believe this from your side of the spiritual grave, but my God owns all the vehicles and all the roads, yours included. True biblical Christianity IS NOT the choice of an intellectual world view among competing options. Oh no sir. It is the concrete reality of the supernatural resurrection of a human soul in the risen Christ from true death to true life in Him. It is alone where authentic eternal divine rationality begins and grows. Nothing CAN be ultimately certain to the heart and mind dead in sin and everything is ultimately certain to the heart and mind of the living Christ of God whose very mind we are given when born again by His gift of faith and the immensity of His grace. (1 Corinthians 2:16)
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I would have gone unnoticed and been considered boring and average in the American colonies.
[/quote]Yes, except the American colonies weren’t exactly the high light of Christian sanctification history. [/quote]When would this high point in history be? I do appreciate that you recognize that I would have been quite average at the time of the revolution. Regardless of where else on the scale of history that period belongs.
Elder Forlife is on an absolute roll on this page. he is doin my work for me. That is actually not a sarcastic statement at all. He is stating precisely the utter futility of autonomous human reason.
[quote]Elder Forlife wrote:<<< Tiribulus makes one mighty assumption, that his god is a real being, and all of his beliefs flow from this seminal assumption.
Pat claims that his beliefs derive from logic, but even if that were indisputably true, logic itself is based on unprovable assumptions (like the assumption of non-contradiction).>>>[/quote]This is absolutely beautiful =]. My hat comes waaay off to this one. You have quite inadvertently, yet ever so rightly discerned that ol Patty here has exalted logic above the throne of God. All my beliefs flow from the triune God of scripture as my self consciously preeminent utterly FIRST all defining principle. Pat (following Aquinas) holds that EVERYTHING including God is subject to logic as the first all defining principle. I hasten to add that he is not to be unduly singled out in this regard. This is the state of self exalted autonomous man. He just happens to be the individual that occasioned for you these very worthwhile posts as right and wrong as they are.
Right in that you have very astutely identified the prison of uncertainty occupied not only by the overt Christ denying unbeliever, but also by the unwitting theist who persists in worshiping a contingent god.
But then wrong in that you steadfastly refuse, because of deadness in sin, to recognize the only remedy. That being a new birth by grace through faith into the very family of the God who alone is altogether non-contingent and hence altogether certain of absolutely everything. Being born into the life of this God and voluntarily surrendering to Him all that one is (in that order) brings with it His certainty derived directly from Him. That CANNOT be seen by anybody for whom it is not already a reality. The apostle Paul said so himself.
Ohhhh Elder Forlife. Not the machinations of men, nor the sword of governments, not the groping hand of my own carnality or the merciless onslaught of the legions of hell can produce in me the faintest odor of doubt. The faithful triumphant conquering king of all that is has sealed me with His Spirit of promise and I will not be moved. I will take every breath including my last in grateful adoring service to my savior who loved me and died for me while I was fully deserving of His eternal wrath. I do pray that you will one day be able to earnestly say the same.
[/quote]
Incorrect, Mister “I am the only real Christian around here”. But you hold God hostage to the psychotic ramblings of John Calvin, yes, even to the exclusion of the word of God.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:<<< You can escape it at any time. You just have to become irrationnal. >>>[/quote]Absolutely. Because driving through life in a vehicle of inescapable pragmatic certainty down a narrow single lane road of self declared intellectually terminal UNcertainty is oh so very rational indeed.
But alas you will no doubt respond with something like: “yeahbut (Hebrew word? =] ) you do the exact same thing only in a different though equally uncertain vehicle”. At least that’s what I’d say if I were you.
You will never believe this from your side of the spiritual grave, but my God owns all the vehicles and all the roads, yours included. True biblical Christianity IS NOT the choice of an intellectual world view among competing options. Oh no sir. It is the concrete reality of the supernatural resurrection of a human soul in the risen Christ from true death to true life in Him. It is alone where authentic eternal divine rationality begins and grows. Nothing CAN be ultimately certain to the heart and mind dead in sin and everything is ultimately certain to the heart and mind of the living Christ of God whose very mind we are given when born again by His gift of faith and the immensity of His grace. (1 Corinthians 2:16)
[/quote]
How is it you understand it so poorly then? And you have most certainly already proven yourself irrational. You don’t have to use scripture to prove it.
[quote]kamui wrote:
yep.
“autonomous human reason” is a prison.
You can escape it at any time. You just have to become irrationnal.
Then you doesn’t feel and suffer this captivity anymore. Now, there is just Hope.
no eyes. no more walls.
no ears. no more cries.
you just forgot the “no mouth” part of wisdom :)[/quote]
I see it the opposite in that the lack of reason or wisdom is a prison in which their is no hope because nothing makes any sense. There is just irrationality and miscellaneous ramblings in which all hope is dashed.
I know your an agnostic and all that but I see logic as a God given gift to understand that which cannot be sensed even to some degree himself.
[quote]pat wrote:<<< Incorrect, Mister “I am the only real Christian around here”. >>>[/quote]Shakes head slowly. Never said that and in fact have explained why that is not the case… let’s see… 1,2,3, 10 million times. Yours is slowly comin Pat. Still workin on it. Doesn’t mean I don’t still like you though =] You have a certain lovable dopiness (by which I truly do not intend to say stupidity) that I find endearing.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
When would this high point in history be? I do appreciate that you recognize that I would have been quite average at the time of the revolution.
[/quote]
Most recently? The 20th Century, with 45 million martyrs for the faith out of 70 million. Another point in time was the first few centuries, we had our King and Pope martyred as well as pretty much every Bishop we had at the time.
Yeah, except I never acknowledge that. I’m not a puritan nor do I like puritanism. Further…I haven’t much study of the Revolution. I’m still working on the 1-4th century and recently jumped ahead to Renaissance because of a class.[/quote]It was the theology and commensurate worldview of the Anglican and Presbyterian traditions that spawned this once greatest of all nations Chris. Oh yes it was. The theology AND the morality. When Jefferson spoke of our seminal “firm reliance on divine providence”, EVERYBODY knew what he meant. The Westminster confession of Faith. 301 redirect Check Of Providence. The 39 articles of Anglicanism Anglicans Online | The Thirty-Nine Articles Check XVII. Of Predestination and Election.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< Incorrect, Mister “I am the only real Christian around here”. >>>[/quote]Shakes head slowly. Never said that and in fact have explained why that is not the case… let’s see… 1,2,3, 10 million times. Yours is slowly comin Pat. Still workin on it. Doesn’t mean I don’t still like you though =] You have a certain lovable dopiness (by which I truly do not intend to say stupidity) that I find endearing.
[/quote]
You said this “.I am the only person in this forum for the moment openly defending this God.”
and this “There’s only one “sort of Christian”. I would have gone unnoticed and been considered boring and average in the American colonies”
Why is it when you say some thing and then come later and deny that’s what you said or meant. Like when you basically condemned all Catholics and Mormons to hell and then you denied doing such a thing. So your either lying now or lying then.
And keep you condensation to yourself. You have made it perfectly clear you think you are better than every body else…But “the first shall be last.” Yes indeed, those who prop themselves up, will be made humble.
[quote]colt44 wrote:
so God messed up basically…
and if lucifer who became satan was the originator of sin, then how did he become sinful? What influnced him…[/quote]
No, not in my reading of this. The issues are hubris – pride that seduces one into making foolish choices – as well as free will. Satan’s failing is that he is more clever and smarter than man and therefore decided to set himself up in opposition to God. But he is not God and therefore doesn’t get it right. Man, having free will must make his choices, because more than anything else, having free will is what puts you in God’s image.
So let’s us just put this in a different light: Why is in particular Christianity on the ropes, i.e., why do people have a hard time believing in God anymore? Mostly because he just isn’t good enough. Seriously. The major type of thinking is that God can’t be so good if s/he (in many traditions God is both female and male simultaneously) allows the good to die young, or the innocent to suffer. The assumption that people (least the ones who don’t go to church) have is that God is always all-powerful and causes everything intentionally. So if it is raining, it must be raining to make you miserable, rather than (as pointed out in the book of Job) the universe was not made for man and therefore it is foolishness to be able to make sense if it in human terms.
So my point here is that people think that God must be controlling Satan which makes God evil – very comforting to the trendy agnostic or atheist, rather than man and even one so lofty as Satan (the former head angle) grappling with their choices. The question, while meant sincerely, is sheerly ignorant of the Christian concepts of free will and redemption.
And as always, I am probably just full of shit…
– jj
[quote]pat wrote:<<< You said this “.I am the only person in this forum for the moment openly defending this God.” >>>[/quote]I did. Where are the rest of the people overtly defending this all governing, all sovereign uncontingent God? [quote]pat wrote:<<< and this “There’s only one “sort of Christian”. >>>[/quote]There IS only one sort of Christian. And many who disagree with me on quite a bit are as well. I have said this a thousand times. [quote]pat wrote:<<< [you also said] I would have gone unnoticed and been considered boring and average in the American colonies” >>>[/quote] Absolutely true statement. [quote]pat wrote:<<< Why is it when you say some thing and then come later and deny that’s what you said or meant. >>>[/quote]Never done this once [quote]pat wrote:<<< Like when you basically condemned all Catholics >>>[/quote] Never done this once either. [quote]pat wrote:<<< and Mormons to hell >>>[/quote]What I said was that informed mormons who are aware of the their theology are polytheists and hence ipso facto fatally heretical by definition. I stand by that statement. Your denial of that speaks volumes about where your coming from. [quote]pat wrote:<<< and then you denied doing such a thing. So your either lying now or lying then. >>>[/quote] Another strikeout Pat. Find yourself a designated hitter. OR… OR… you could just stop lying about what I say. (Maybe you actually AREN’T lying on purpose) [quote]pat wrote:<<< And keep you condensation to yourself. >>>[/quote] One of the things I find endearing about you Pat is your somewhat frequent homophonic spelling errors for which I have heroically resisted making fun of you for like ever. This is because they never obscure the point you’re making and I do happen to think you’re an intelligent guy who simply has a linguistic quirk. I have mine too. Ya really missed it on this one though. I still won’t make fun of you though because it was just a mistake and you don’t think straight when dealing with me. >>>[quote]pat wrote:<<< You have made it perfectly clear you think you are better than every body else… >>>[/quote] I have made it perfectly clear that I am worthy only of His most horrific wrath and judgement with my salvation being provided utterly by His free and sovereign grace over and over and over. [quote]pat wrote:<<< But “the first shall be last.” Yes indeed, those who prop themselves up, will be made humble. >>>[/quote] How well I know.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< You said this “.I am the only person in this forum for the moment openly defending this God.” >>>[/quote]I did. Where are the rest of the people overtly defending this all governing, all sovereign uncontingent God? [quote]pat wrote:<<< and this “There’s only one “sort of Christian”. >>>[/quote]There IS only one sort of Christian. And many who disagree with me on quite a bit are as well. I have said this a thousand times. [quote]pat wrote:<<< [you also said] I would have gone unnoticed and been considered boring and average in the American colonies” >>>[/quote] Absolutely true statement. [quote]pat wrote:<<< Why is it when you say some thing and then come later and deny that’s what you said or meant. >>>[/quote]Never done this once [quote]pat wrote:<<< Like when you basically condemned all Catholics >>>[/quote] Never done this once either. [quote]pat wrote:<<< and Mormons to hell >>>[/quote]What I said was that informed mormons who are aware of the their theology are polytheists and hence ipso facto fatally heretical by definition. I stand by that statement. Your denial of that speaks volumes about where your coming from. [quote]pat wrote:<<< and then you denied doing such a thing. So your either lying now or lying then. >>>[/quote] Another strikeout Pat. Find yourself a designated hitter. OR… OR… you could just stop lying about what I say. (Maybe you actually AREN’T lying on purpose) [quote]pat wrote:<<< And keep you condensation to yourself. >>>[/quote] One of the things I find endearing about you Pat is your somewhat frequent homophonic spelling errors for which I have heroically resisted making fun of you for like ever. This is because they never obscure the point you’re making and I do happen to think you’re an intelligent guy who simply has a linguistic quirk. I have mine too. Ya really missed it on this one though. I still won’t make fun of you though because it was just a mistake and you don’t think straight when dealing with me. >>>[quote]pat wrote:<<< You have made it perfectly clear you think you are better than every body else… >>>[/quote] I have made it perfectly clear that I am worthy only of His most horrific wrath and judgement with my salvation being provided utterly by His free and sovereign grace over and over and over. [quote]pat wrote:<<< But “the first shall be last.” Yes indeed, those who prop themselves up, will be made humble. >>>[/quote] How well I know.
[/quote]
I think we’re done here. You are the most dishonest person here. I cannot see any point in having any discussions with you since you are incapable of being honest and dealing honestly with people.
You are no better and no more saved than anybody else here. Only a fool would be this arrogant.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< Incorrect, Mister “I am the only real Christian around here”. >>>[/quote]Nods head slowly…
[/quote]
Fixed for accuracy. Nothing worse than a self righteous liar.
[/quote]
Indeed it is what we have here.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
[quote]colt44 wrote:
so God messed up basically…
and if lucifer who became satan was the originator of sin, then how did he become sinful? What influnced him…[/quote]
No, not in my reading of this. The issues are hubris – pride that seduces one into making foolish choices – as well as free will. Satan’s failing is that he is more clever and smarter than man and therefore decided to set himself up in opposition to God. But he is not God and therefore doesn’t get it right. Man, having free will must make his choices, because more than anything else, having free will is what puts you in God’s image.
So let’s us just put this in a different light: Why is in particular Christianity on the ropes, i.e., why do people have a hard time believing in God anymore? Mostly because he just isn’t good enough. Seriously. The major type of thinking is that God can’t be so good if s/he (in many traditions God is both female and male simultaneously) allows the good to die young, or the innocent to suffer. The assumption that people (least the ones who don’t go to church) have is that God is always all-powerful and causes everything intentionally. So if it is raining, it must be raining to make you miserable, rather than (as pointed out in the book of Job) the universe was not made for man and therefore it is foolishness to be able to make sense if it in human terms.
So my point here is that people think that God must be controlling Satan which makes God evil – very comforting to the trendy agnostic or atheist, rather than man and even one so lofty as Satan (the former head angle) grappling with their choices. The question, while meant sincerely, is sheerly ignorant of the Christian concepts of free will and redemption.
And as always, I am probably just full of shit…
– jj[/quote]
Good post.[/quote]
X2