…I am the only person in this forum for the moment openly defending this God.
[/quote]
Hey Lone Ranger, be careful with your chest thumping, you might break a rib.
You spent many an hour passively sitting on the bench by your own choice in the creation/evolution threads, my friend. In fact, I never saw you show up once even for the coin toss.
For the most part I was the only running back that ever touched the ball.
[/quote]You and I do not worship the same God. You are the most reprehensible specimen of God hating blasphemous pagan idolater I have ever personally encountered. Every atheistic God denying rank heathen on this site combined does not even begin to bring the reproach and dishonor on the holy name of the spotless lamb of God like you do. As things stand now Elder Forlife will have it much easier at the judgment seat of Christ. Pick somebody else for your Satanic team.
[/quote]
what Tirib (and many others) are trying to show you is this :
if you don’t acknowledge a “first principle” (which believers equate with a First Cause, ie a Creator God) then nothing is certain, at all.
because an epistemology need a solid starting point, and this “solid starting point” can’t be found in our reason alone. because our reason alone is finite.
for a believer 2+2=4 is a universal and absolute fact, designed by God in His Ominiscience and Omnibenevolence.
For a non-believer it’s, at best, a convention of language and/or the tautological conclusion that appears in the contingent and fragile brain of an homo sapiens when some cells connects.
The price you pay for disbelieving in God is that you can no more know the world. You can only believe in it, without any true certainty, because your sceptical epistemology is now relativist and probabilist.
It’s not a problem per se, if, like forlife, you fully accept to live your life in a relative and uncertain world. but that means you can no more use the “ololol, you believe without proof, idiot” against believers. Because we ALL believe without proof, and we atheist perhaps more often (but with less intensity) than them.
simply put :
the sword of scepticism is a double-edged one
[/quote]
Well said. Skepticism does indeed cut both ways. Which is as it should be. Criticizing others while refusing to criticize yourself is the definition of hypocrisy.
Tirib is probably right about one thing though, that full agnosticism is the way out of that jam.
I’m not totally convinced that there need to be any absolute truths to have any use for information. Absolutism in all it’s variants tends to jam things up rather than keep things moving. You may as well have faith in the content of your experience, cause it’s the only thing that there really is (that we can know about obviously), but having absolute faith in things beyond the boundaries of experience doesn’t seem to naturally follow.
I don’t have absolute faith in the laws of physics for example (the word “law” is a bit presumptuous first of all). It is beyond anyone’s experience to know what they are, if they exist, or that they shall remain. But I do have a little more faith that my environment will hold some of the consistency that it has so far (I also have faith that to an unknown degree it will not). And I will honestly be surprised when and if my experience is contradicted.
Picking an arbitrary point of absolute truth is like calling a single number on an infinite roulette wheel. You pretty much lose guaranteed if you play. And it doesn’t seem like you have to wait to find out if you lost. The negative effects are evident all around us. Not just in religion but in the god complexes created by intellectual and political establishments, knowing answers they could not possibly know, and suffering in concrete ways for it.
…I am the only person in this forum for the moment openly defending this God.
[/quote]
Hey Lone Ranger, be careful with your chest thumping, you might break a rib.
You spent many an hour passively sitting on the bench by your own choice in the creation/evolution threads, my friend. In fact, I never saw you show up once even for the coin toss.
For the most part I was the only running back that ever touched the ball.
[/quote]You and I do not worship the same God. You are the most reprehensible specimen of God hating blasphemous pagan idolater I have ever personally encountered. Every atheistic God denying rank heathen on this site combined does not even begin to bring the reproach and dishonor on the holy name of the spotless lamb of God like you do. As things stand now Elder Forlife will have it much easier at the judgment seat of Christ. Pick somebody else for your Satanic team.
[/quote]
I think I’ll leave your quote just sitting there so it in and of itself can bring the “reproach” you so richly deserve. You are some piece of work, Pharisee.[/quote]In the whorehouse of modern America with it’s spiritually castrated church where you fit right in that will probably be an effective tactic with many. Not my problem and I’m pretty sure it won’t be the last time. You don’t now the tears I shed for you Push (actually all the people you corrupt too), but I CANNOT sit perpetually by while you flagrantly smear your filth all over the glorious face of my precious exalted Lord and Savior and then attempt to act like we are on the same side. Repent. I implore you.
[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:
Tirib is probably right about one thing though, that full agnosticism is the way out of that jam. >>>[/quote]I’m gonna try n stick with Tigger, but I promise you will see that it is the only alternative though not actually a way out of anything. I have 3 project posts I’m workin on for Cortes, dearest Christopher and Patty boy (he thought I was kiddin), not to mention a pm exchange with somebody. I do my best, but I cannot keep up with everything.
Sounds like you’ve been doing your diligent study of the atheist propaganda websites again… This horseshit analysis seems very similar to counter claims I have read on said those websites.
Demanding evidence makes it clear you don’t understand the argument, at all. If you did the answer to this question would be self evident as would the ridiculous notion of proving ‘your God’ over any one else’s. The answer is in the argument itself. We’ve discussed this to death in the ‘Physics of the After life’ thread. As I have warned you are repeating debunked notions. It would do you well to peruse at least the last 7 pages of that thread so you wouldn’t continue with those repetitions… The wheel exists, there’s no need to reinvent it…http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/physics_of_the_afterlife
[/quote]
If you don’t want to go through this then fine, don’t. This wasn’t your conversation. You don’t have to throw your 2 cents into every single fucking thing everyone says everywhere, Pat.
[/quote]
It’s worth at least 3. And I’ll be damned if I let hubris take the place of logic and reason. If you think you can flippantly dismiss it with out even understanding it… 9 times of out 0 if cosmology is being questioned and is not being dealt with sufficiently, I’ll jump it…You’re not my first…I popped my cherry long ago. You can just ignore me though. I might go away…
[quote]
Well, for one, it’s enormous. What need if there for all this space? [/quote]
The need for it I am not sure. I guess it’s the only way to fit it all in. It’s size doesn’t make it random. There’s many ways to go on this, but I’ll leave it at that.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:<<< As I’ve already said, numbers not rooted in reality are simply concepts. The concept of 2 doubled must equal 4 by definition. It’s tautologically true. [/quote]What is a number? A concept? A notion like doubled? Equal? A tautology? How bout the definition of definition? (I should have copied and pasted from Elder Forlife’s turn at this.) From whence do you ultimately derive even one of these?
Trust me. You have never been where I’m taking you. I am not arguing for the possible or even overwhelmingly probable existence of some abstract first cause people call God. I am declaring the preeminently certain existence of the triune God of Christianity who eternally IS as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not just any generic version of him either, but the unstoppable, all governing, all defining, all powerful, almighty, utterly non contingent, self existent and sufficient, thrice HOLY God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Who in the beginning forced light and matter to emerge from nothing by fiat command. Who created you in His image and is hence entirely unimpressed by your opinion. (mine too btw)
The God who declares the end from the beginning and calls all things not yet as though they already were. In short, the God before whom every actual and possible object of knowledge of any kind on any level is laid perfectly bare because HE DEFINES THEM ONE AND ALL. Make no mistake. I am the only person in this forum for the moment openly defending this God.
Now again:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:<<< As I’ve already said, numbers not rooted in reality are simply concepts. The concept of 2 doubled must equal 4 by definition. It’s tautologically true. [/quote]What is a number? A concept? A notion like doubled? Equal? A tautology? How bout the definition of definition? (I should have copied and pasted from Elder Forlife’s turn at this.) From whence do you ultimately derive the audacity to act as if you have the right to hold any view whatsoever on even one of these? Where? You can always just cry total agnosticism right now and save yourself abuncha trouble.
[/quote]
You are sad tirib. I don’t have to agree with all my Christian brothers to be unified in the body of Christ. You pervert his word in order to make you self greater. God isn’t here for your arrogance or for you posturing.
You are not honoring God with this crap, you insult him, and me and anybody who loves God. If this is evidence of your ‘knowledge of God’, you don’t know him at all.
[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:
Tirib is probably right about one thing though, that full agnosticism is the way out of that jam. >>>[/quote]I’m gonna try n stick with Tigger, but I promise you will see that it is the only alternative though not actually a way out of anything. I have 3 project posts I’m workin on for Cortes, dearest Christopher and Patty boy (he thought I was kiddin), not to mention a pm exchange with somebody. I do my best, but I cannot keep up with everything.
[/quote]
Why? So you can torture the poor guy with bullshit? Like Push said, away with you pharisee. Tiger is asking honest questions and we intend to give him honest answers. I’ll be damned if I am going to let your self-aggrandizing posturing speak for God.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
…Repent. I implore you.
[/quote]
You have a beam that needs removing long before you worry about my splinter.
Edit: By the way, my original claim still stands. You sit on the sidelines when it comes to Genesis, the Book of Beginnings.
The complexities of Calvinism pale in comparison to the significance of the foundation of God’s Word.
The beam, Tirib, the beam. Remove it. I implore you.[/quote]
And you thought I was being overly harsh and unreasonable… This is not the first time he has put himself over everybody as some delusion of grandeur, like he’s God’s last an best profit.
Do you know now, why I was the way I was?
There’s a teammate for ya Push. Wadda shock. Carry on. You make a perfect couple.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:<<< So, if I’m understanding you, you claim God exists because we can hold concepts in our minds and that is only possible if a God set the parameters for cognition, amiright? >>>[/quote]Please define cognition as you’re using it.
Tentatively I’ll say that we can hold concepts in our mind with certainty only because the one true and living God who exists as an eternal tri-unity, has designed not only us generally, but also the logical framework we are inextricably pickled in AND every single object of knowledge every single man will ever encounter.
It’s not “God exists because…”. It’s “everything else exists because God…”.
Universal comprehensive knowledge of universally and comprehensively EVERYTHING is required for the acquisition of even the first particle of knowledge of anything. You will concede that before we’re through here. If there is even one grain of knowledge that is unknown it carries the potential to alter everything else we know. I by faith access the mind of the only God even proposed in all the world’s religions who has such knowledge. Even other views of the Christian God deny Him this knowledge. (though they’ll attempt to deny that)
You still haven’t told me HOW you KNOW anything. I went down this exact path most recently with Elder Forlife. There’s his footprints over there. What is the very first utterly foundational presuppositional framework YOU assume by faith that governs and dictates every other thought you think? You have one. Everybody does. And everybody’s is ultimately the same. Except Christians. Actually insofar as unbelievers are accurate about anything at all they are exercising the sin marred image of God remaining in them.
BTW. I’m not trying to “prove” anything to you in the traditional sense. That would be impossible. I’m simply testifying to you why I believe I have the right and reason to believe that 2+2=4.
BTW again. There are people who disagree with me with regard to what we are presently talking about who I consider strong brothers and sisters in the Lord.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You and I do not worship the same God. You are the most reprehensible specimen of God hating blasphemous pagan idolater I have ever personally encountered. Every atheistic God denying rank heathen on this site combined does not even begin to bring the reproach and dishonor on the holy name of the spotless lamb of God like you do. As things stand now Elder Forlife will have it much easier at the judgment seat of Christ. Pick somebody else for your Satanic team.
[/quote]
You know, somehow I missed this earlier on, but WOW!
If I were asked in TigerTime’s place I would say: “I don’t know anything. I could say I know something but that would be a misapplication of the word. I’d just be talking about my assumptions.”
The one thing that I “assume” however (though not completely closed to the possibility otherwise) is that the content of my experience really is “happening” and is giving me limited information about the world. Some of this information on the very high level will form patterns that have various levels of continuity. I will support my findings of patterns that appear to have more continuity. I am also to greater or lesser degrees metacognitively aware of the pattern whereby my assumptions are often contradicted by the available information.
It’s almost relativist but absolutist from the standpoint of my collective unlabeled and undefined experiences, rather than an arbitrary point set outside of experience.
Should I experience information about god my assumptions will still be maleable and shift in line with the new experience.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
There’s your team member Push. Wadda shock. Carry on. You make a perfect couple.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:<<< So, if I’m understanding you, you claim God exists because we can hold concepts in our minds and that is only possible if a God set the parameters for cognition, amiright? >>>[/quote]Please define cognition as you’re using it.
Tentatively I’ll say that we can hold concepts in our mind with certainty only because the one true and living God who exists as an eternal tri-unity, has designed not only us generally, but also the logical framework we are inextricably pickled in AND every single object of knowledge every single man will ever encounter.
It’s not “God exists because…”. It’s “everything else exists because God…”.
Universal comprehensive knowledge of universally and comprehensively EVERYTHING is required for the acquisition of even the first particle of knowledge of anything. You will concede that before we’re through here. If there is even one grain of knowledge that is unknown it carries the potential to alter everything else we know. I by faith access the mind of the only God even proposed in all the world’s religions who has such knowledge. Even other views of the Christian God deny Him this knowledge. (though they’ll attempt to deny that)
You still haven’t told me HOW you KNOW anything. I went down this exact path most recently with Elder Forlife. There’s his footprints over there. What is the very first utterly foundational presuppositional framework YOU assume by faith that governs and dictates every other thought you think? You have one. Everybody does. And everybody’s is ultimately the same. Except Christians. Actually insofar as unbelievers are accurate about anything at all they are exercising the sin marred image of God remaining in them.
BTW. I’m not trying to “prove” anything to you in the traditional sense. That would be impossible. I’m simply testifying to you why I believe I have the right and reason to believe that 2+2=4.
BTW again. There are people who disagree with me with regard to what we are presently talking about who I consider strong brothers and sisters in the Lord.
[/quote]
Ya know I think this calls for a song. I believe this describes the situ, at least tirib’s state o’ mind:
Tirib, what the hell is wrong with you? Who the hell are you to give condemnation like that?
You think you know, but you don’t know shit. Nothing.
[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:
If I were asked in TigerTime’s place I would say: “I don’t know anything. I could say I know something but that would be a misapplication of the word. I’d just be talking about my assumptions.”
The one thing that I “assume” however (though not completely closed to the possibility otherwise) is that the content of my experience really is “happening” and is giving me limited information about the world. Some of this information on the very high level will form patterns that have various levels of continuity. I will support my findings of patterns that appear to have more continuity. I am also to greater or lesser degrees metacognitively aware of the pattern whereby my assumptions are often contradicted by the available information.
It’s almost relativist but absolutist from the standpoint of my collective unlabeled and undefined experiences, rather than an arbitrary point set outside of experience.
Should I experience information about god my assumptions will still be maleable and shift in line with the new experience.[/quote]
My humble opinion; stop trying to be profound and say what you mean plainly. I don’t know what the hell you are talking about half the time.
