^ To add. We only “know” things because wishy washy hunches used to get us killed in the wild. A certain level of emotional commitment was necessary to fully engage in fight or flight. Now the things we “know” kill more people than lions and tigers do.
Think about it.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:<<< What are you going on as evidence he exists, exactly? >>>[/quote]What are you going on again as evidence that there can possibly be evidence for anything at all exactly? What ultimately? How do you know ANYTHING? At all? Exactly? Before you spout off, do yourself a favor and actually think. Nothing else you say has any substance until this question is settled. You cannot possibly know WHAT you know until you KNOW HOW you know anything at all. Unless you’re a baptized unshakable member of the first church of universal uncertainty like Elder Forlife.
[/quote]
I love how honestly acknowledging the limits of our knowledge is treated as identical to claiming things must be true without actually knowing they are true. Lol.[/quote]
This.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:<<< What are you going on as evidence he exists, exactly? >>>[/quote]What are you going on again as evidence that there can possibly be evidence for anything at all exactly? What ultimately? How do you know ANYTHING? At all? Exactly? Before you spout off, do yourself a favor and actually think. Nothing else you say has any substance until this question is settled. You cannot possibly know WHAT you know until you KNOW HOW you know anything at all. Unless you’re a baptized unshakable member of the first church of universal uncertainty like Elder Forlife.
[/quote]
Yo dawg, I heard you like knowing things, so I put some knowledge in your knowledge so you can know what you know!
Seriously though, does this question not also apply to you? How do you “know things”?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Christianity is what God gave us. Religion is what man made of it.
[/quote]
Yes, Jesus, Son of Man, did give us our religion. A great religion, Catholicism. ;)[/quote]
You betcha, Hoss.[/quote]
Got me good, I am in fact wearing a tan (straw) cowboy hat and a vest today with a light pearl snap shirt.
Can you also read palms?
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:<<< What are you going on as evidence he exists, exactly? >>>[/quote]What are you going on again as evidence that there can possibly be evidence for anything at all exactly? What ultimately? How do you know ANYTHING? At all? Exactly? Before you spout off, do yourself a favor and actually think. Nothing else you say has any substance until this question is settled. You cannot possibly know WHAT you know until you KNOW HOW you know anything at all. Unless you’re a baptized unshakable member of the first church of universal uncertainty like Elder Forlife.
[/quote]
Yo dawg, I heard you like knowing things, so I put some knowledge in your knowledge so you can know what you know!
Seriously though, does this question not also apply to you? How do you “know things”?[/quote]
You don’t see how problematic this is for your supposed certainty?
It’s easy to just toss the hot potato back, but are you willing to answer the question that was posed to you in the first place?
@pushharder,
Good point. Don’t want to get to certain about this shit. It get’s less fun that way:
"It seems from my limited point of view that the evidence so far collected appears to show that many of our mental capacities might be survival adaptations, perhaps lending credence to my hypothesis that the apparent tendency for individuals to more easily maintain definite judgements (as opposed to indefinite longterm conciderations) is perhaps also an animal adaptation suitable to living in the dangerous wilderness (assuming that humans can be likened to animals, which assumes possibility they might not (if you will permit)).
However, it would seem as the complexity of a situation scales, this reflex might be less advantageous, where it limits necessary prolongation of decision making processes (if such occurences even happen).
Or, or, or… Some entity might have made us that way. An entity with many conflicting infinite and finite qualities… and cares a lot about butt sex. Or some host of entities. Or a flaming penguin. Or the number 7.
Though those alternatives seem (from my limited perspective) perhaps less likely… Not totally sure."
That took so long a lion almost ate me. But I did think about it.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Christianity is what God gave us. Religion is what man made of it.
[/quote]
Yes, Jesus, Son of Man, did give us our religion. A great religion, Catholicism. ;)[/quote]
You betcha, Hoss.[/quote]
Got me good, I am in fact wearing a tan (straw) cowboy hat and a vest today with a light pearl snap shirt.
Can you also read palms?[/quote]
Only Catholic palms.[/quote]
Well, you’ll have to come visit me in the world’s largest Ponderosa Pine Forest in the world. I’ll be living out here for the next eight months. Hopefully I can go visit the rug rats next weekend.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:<<< What are you going on as evidence he exists, exactly? >>>[/quote]What are you going on again as evidence that there can possibly be evidence for anything at all exactly? What ultimately? How do you know ANYTHING? At all? Exactly? Before you spout off, do yourself a favor and actually think. Nothing else you say has any substance until this question is settled. You cannot possibly know WHAT you know until you KNOW HOW you know anything at all. Unless you’re a baptized unshakable member of the first church of universal uncertainty like Elder Forlife.
[/quote]
Yo dawg, I heard you like knowing things, so I put some knowledge in your knowledge so you can know what you know!
Seriously though, does this question not also apply to you? How do you “know things”?[/quote]
You don’t see how problematic this is for your supposed certainty?
It’s easy to just toss the hot potato back, but are you willing to answer the question that was posed to you in the first place?
[/quote]
The thing is, I know what he’s getting at. I have an answer but he’s just going to reject it, so I figure I might as well just let him tell me where my cognition comes from and we can take it from there =/
[quote]TigerTime wrote:<<< The thing is, I know what he’s getting at. I have an answer but he’s just going to reject it, so I figure I might as well just let him tell me where my cognition comes from and we can take it from there =/[/quote]Please? I insist. Let’s start here. (I think I recognize that tree over there folks) Why do you believe 2+2=4?
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I love how honestly acknowledging the limits of our knowledge.>>> [/quote]Because my dear Elder Forlife it is NOT honest. It is a self induced, self inflicted, self sustained immoral deception of which homosexuality is but one sinful manifestation. To protect yourself from moral responsibility to your very own creator who is revealed in every single fact of existence and ESPECIALLY in His image staring back at you in your own mirror, you simply deny that ANYTHING is certain.
A sort of universally negative epistemological syllogism.
Major premise - Nothing can be known for certain
Minor premise - God is something
Conclusion - God cannot be known for certain
If I’m not careful I can really let it get entertaining for me how comically you’ll add “I’m also willing to say that the NON existence of God is also uncertain so he MAY exist. EXCEPT the God you preach. If there is one thing I might be certain of it’s that if there is a God yours ain’t him. ANY god is better than that” LOL!!! That is just SO biblical.
You jist keep hoppin along on that stick horse of yours Elder Forlife. Plastic helmet and sword equipping you for battle against that foul enemy certainty. Soon enough by the grace of the most high God we’ll have tigger boy here as the latest member of the T-Nation fraternity of your church and you’ll have someone new to reassure you.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
You were talking about warring Christian sects which was minimal. It’s still a fail as most of the worlds wars were not religious in nature.
I did find another anglo-french war between protestants and Catholics around 1550 AD… Here is a list of wars…See how many were religious in nature.
[/quote]
Since Christianity came from Judaism I see the wars caused by both testaments to be under the same God. Now, from what I’ve read about 7% of war has been over the Abrahamic God. That’s still thousands of years worth of war. And those are only the ones that are considered solely religious. Religion has had a hand in virtually every major war, if not the direct cause.
[/quote]
Religion has had a hand in virtually every major war?? Yet another history fail. Facts are facts, making them up out of thin ass air doesn’t count as fact. You really got to stop reading those atheist propaganda websites. They are filling your head full of shit…What proof? Then try to prove this point, you’ll find you cannot. At least with facts, you can make anything up you want to, but that’s not fact.
[quote]
[quote]
That God is the creator, that chose to have a relationship with man and that sin entered the world through man.[/quote]
So here you have a book that doesn’t make sense unless you already have the answer and work backwards making mental leaps you would never make for anything else, a God that you can’t feel or hear, a God that doesn’t clarify what he means in his own book that’s meant to be our guide book through life, and he doesn’t do anything that can’t be explained naturally. What are you going on as evidence he exists, exactly?
Do you have any more than any other religion? [/quote]
Yep. I have told you. I am well equiped to discuss God and his existence with out the need to appeal to religion ever. I have directed you to a thread where such a discussion was taking place. And if you want to see it, I will direct you there again. God doesn’t exist because of religion, religion exists because of God. Further, God isn’t religious.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:<<< What are you going on as evidence he exists, exactly? >>>[/quote]What are you going on again as evidence that there can possibly be evidence for anything at all exactly? What ultimately? How do you know ANYTHING? At all? Exactly? Before you spout off, do yourself a favor and actually think. Nothing else you say has any substance until this question is settled. You cannot possibly know WHAT you know until you KNOW HOW you know anything at all. Unless you’re a baptized unshakable member of the first church of universal uncertainty like Elder Forlife.
[/quote]
Yo dawg, I heard you like knowing things, so I put some knowledge in your knowledge so you can know what you know!
Seriously though, does this question not also apply to you? How do you “know things”?[/quote]
Actually, tirib has a point, if not a mucked up wordy way of putting it. Most everything you consider ‘knowledge’ is mere belief and faith. Understanding the very basic core fundamentals of logic and reason dictate that you cannot prove anything ‘physical’ exists beyond a shadow of a doubt. At best you can only infer it. Hence the only things you can actually ‘know’ are truths that are established by deductive reasoning.
Descarte, Locke and Berkeley really expounded on why this is necessarily true and came up ‘subjective idealism’ where all physical reality cannot be trusted because epistemologically speaking, it’s impossible to know.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
The thing is, I know what he’s getting at. I have an answer but he’s just going to reject it, so I figure I might as well just let him tell me where my cognition comes from and we can take it from there =/[/quote]
I’d like to hear how you “know” things…
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:<<< The thing is, I know what he’s getting at. I have an answer but he’s just going to reject it, so I figure I might as well just let him tell me where my cognition comes from and we can take it from there =/[/quote]Please? I insist. Let’s start here. (I think I recognize that tree over there folks) Why do you believe 2+2=4?
[/quote]
Oooooh I know, I know!
But you asked him so I won’t answer 
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I love how honestly acknowledging the limits of our knowledge.>>> [/quote]Because my dear Elder Forlife it is NOT honest. It is a self induced, self inflicted, self sustained immoral deception of which homosexuality is but one sinful manifestation. To protect yourself from moral responsibility to your very own creator who is revealed in every single fact of existence and ESPECIALLY in His image staring back at you in your own mirror, you simply deny that ANYTHING is certain.
A sort of universally negative epistemological syllogism.
Major premise - Nothing can be known for certain
Minor premise - God is something
Conclusion - God cannot be known for certain
If I’m not careful I can really let it get entertaining for me how comically you’ll add “I’m also willing to say that the NON existence of God is also uncertain so he MAY exist. EXCEPT the God you preach. If there is one thing I might be certain of it’s that if there is a God yours ain’t him. ANY god is better than that” LOL!!! That is just SO biblical.
You jist keep hoppin along on that stick horse of yours Elder Forlife. Plastic helmet and sword equipping you for battle against that foul enemy certainty. Soon enough by the grace of the most high God we’ll have tigger boy here as the latest member of the T-Nation fraternity of your church and you’ll have someone new to reassure you.[/quote]
I am calling foul on this one, and strawman. The good Elder’s sexuality was not in question or context here. Using that to disparage his take on epistemology is both not fair and not correct.
However, your argument form was actually well done and more to the point.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I love how honestly acknowledging the limits of our knowledge.>>> [/quote]Because my dear Elder Forlife it is NOT honest. It is a self induced, self inflicted, self sustained immoral deception of which homosexuality is but one sinful manifestation. To protect yourself from moral responsibility to your very own creator who is revealed in every single fact of existence and ESPECIALLY in His image staring back at you in your own mirror, you simply deny that ANYTHING is certain.
A sort of universally negative epistemological syllogism.
Major premise - Nothing can be known for certain
Minor premise - God is something
Conclusion - God cannot be known for certain
If I’m not careful I can really let it get entertaining for me how comically you’ll add “I’m also willing to say that the NON existence of God is also uncertain so he MAY exist. EXCEPT the God you preach. If there is one thing I might be certain of it’s that if there is a God yours ain’t him. ANY god is better than that” LOL!!! That is just SO biblical.
You jist keep hoppin along on that stick horse of yours Elder Forlife. Plastic helmet and sword equipping you for battle against that foul enemy certainty. Soon enough by the grace of the most high God we’ll have tigger boy here as the latest member of the T-Nation fraternity of your church and you’ll have someone new to reassure you.[/quote]
Au contraire, mon frere. Surely you agree that MY ignorance is honestly acknowledged. It’s YOUR ignorance about which we disagree. You insist that you absolutely, unequivocally, irrefutably KNOW that your god is real. You offer no proof for this knowledge, save your earnest assurance that you really do know, and anyone who disagrees with you MUST be wrong. Who’s being honest here, really and truly?
Your attempt to disparage my position as a cheap tactic for excusing my sexual orientation falls flat, unless of course you’re contending that every philosopher throughout history that has held the same epistemological position was dishonest, disingenuous, and similarly trying to rationalize his sins. I actually wouldn’t be surprised to hear that you believe this too.
You’re a bright guy, so here’s something to think about. If I was looking to cover up my sins, I would be an atheist, not an agnostic. Or I would be a theist who accepts committed homosexual relationships (like Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, etc.) as pleasing to god. Either way, I would be completely in the clear.
But agnosticism doesn’t allow that. Acknowledging my ignorance doesn’t absolve me from the repercussions of my actions. Just because I don’t know something is true doesn’t prove it isn’t true.
Calvin may be right, after all. So could Joseph Smith, the Pope, or any other fundamentalist religious leader claiming that homosexual behavior is sinful. If even one of them is right, I’m screwed.
I fully acknowledge that. I could be wrong, and I could be going to hell, to suffer for eternity because I’m in a long term relationship with another man.
Does that sound like the position of someone dishonestly trying to cover up his sins?
I can see why portraying me in this way helps confirm your own beliefs, but it doesn’t make you right. You’re of course welcome to believe whatever you want about me, but I hope that despite disagreeing with my perspective, you will at least acknowledge my sincerity.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:<<< What are you going on as evidence he exists, exactly? >>>[/quote]What are you going on again as evidence that there can possibly be evidence for anything at all exactly? What ultimately? How do you know ANYTHING? At all? Exactly? Before you spout off, do yourself a favor and actually think. Nothing else you say has any substance until this question is settled. You cannot possibly know WHAT you know until you KNOW HOW you know anything at all. Unless you’re a baptized unshakable member of the first church of universal uncertainty like Elder Forlife.
[/quote]
Yo dawg, I heard you like knowing things, so I put some knowledge in your knowledge so you can know what you know!
Seriously though, does this question not also apply to you? How do you “know things”?[/quote]
Actually, tirib has a point, if not a mucked up wordy way of putting it. Most everything you consider ‘knowledge’ is mere belief and faith. Understanding the very basic core fundamentals of logic and reason dictate that you cannot prove anything ‘physical’ exists beyond a shadow of a doubt. At best you can only infer it. Hence the only things you can actually ‘know’ are truths that are established by deductive reasoning.
Descarte, Locke and Berkeley really expounded on why this is necessarily true and came up ‘subjective idealism’ where all physical reality cannot be trusted because epistemologically speaking, it’s impossible to know. [/quote]
Descarte, Locke, and Berkeley were obviously deceitful sinners looking to rationalize their evil ways, don’t ya know? 