[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
If you read the thread, I was responding to a brilliant premise offered by Pat, and with which both Tiribulus and I heartily agreed. [/quote]
To what are you refering to…I made several regarding this?[/quote]
I was referring to your statement that we can’t know anything with certainty unless we actually know everything.
[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:
“Do not search for the truth;
only cease to cherish opinions.”
Seng-ts’an - 3rd Zen Partriarch
“To free yourself from all the error’s inherent in the truths we snatch at…”
Carl Jung
…
It would probably be missing the point to argue for these words, so I won’t.[/quote]
Some of my favorite quotes:
[quote]Man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard
against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without a
rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility,
which they call faith, takes the helm of reason, and the mind becomes
a wreck. [/quote]
[quote]Yes, say, what is truth? 'Tis the brightest prize
To which mortals or Gods can aspire;
Go search in the depths where it glittering lies
Or ascend in pursuit to the loftiest skies.
'Tis an aim for the noblest desire.[/quote]
[quote]Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth, more than
ruin, more even than death. Thought is subversive and revolutionary,
destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege,
established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into
the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and
free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man" - Bertrand
Russell
"Sit down before fact like a little child, and be prepared to give up
every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever
abyss Nature leads, or you shall learn nothing.[/quote]
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
With no fundamental foundation NOTHING you come up with as just a mere mortal evolved humanoid animal can be trusted. Even your premise that nothing can be trusted can be trusted.
You have boxed yourself in, FL.[/quote]
See my last post.
The best we can due is gauge our certainty in proportion to the reliable evidence, while always being ready to learn, grow, and admit we could be mistaken.[/quote]
No such thing as “reliable evidence” in your world view. Nothing can be trusted. We can be sure of nothing…even reliable evidence. Your whole ethos voids all rationality.[/quote]
Not so. Just because we can’t know anything with 100% certainty doesn’t mean everything is 0% certainty. Certainty is a continuum, not a binary.
I’m far more certain that the sun will rise tomorrow than I am that Ron Paul will be our next president. But in the end, I can’t know either with absolute certainty.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
…But in the end, I can’t know either with absolute certainty.[/quote]
Do you know this ^ with absolute certainty?[/quote]
Asked and answered.
I admit I could be wrong about all of this.
Do you?
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I know, intimately, He who does know everything.[/quote]
Not if this is true;
You can’t know ANYTHING for certain, including knowing that “he who does know everything” is real, let alone that he actually does know everything.[/quote]
like I said,knowledge wasn’t ever one of the lords strong points.
Another thing that has always surprised me is that critical thinking or asking questions isn’t valued at all in christianity or any rel. organizations for that matter.
Seems it’s more important to come up with a cheap answer than to ask the important questions…
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Just because we can’t know anything with 100% certainty doesn’t mean everything is 0% certainty. >>>[/quote]Yes it does. If there is NOTHING that is 100% certain then EVERYTHING is 100% uncertain and thus meaningless. Your poetic protestations to the contrary are the proverbial “boy whistling in the dark”. That’ll eventually be your next reluctant concession because you’re a smart guy with
a dose of common grace in your sin.
The only escape is God. And not jist any ol God will do. Only the God of Christianity triumphantly defeats this strangling intellectual/spiritual trap. And not jist any ol version of Him ether. Only Paul, Augustine and Calvin’s God is so capable because all the others are subject to the same contingent uncertainty that you are. If the movement of one single sub atomic particle or the rendering of one moral decision by any person, angel, demon or Satan himself in all of history occurs in defiance of His decree and providential government then not even HE can be certain and we can all hence eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.
Don’t look now, but in the Christian scriptures, despite all the most violent assertions of the contrary, we do in fact find just such a God who works ALL things according to the good pleasure of His own will (Ephesians 1)
Again, all of this is why I DO NOT bother with arguing evidence or logical “proofs” with unbelievers. The cosmological argument proves the existence of some impersonal ultimately pantheistic idol and disproves (in it’s own realm) the existence of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is either absolutely first or not at all.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
…But in the end, I can’t know either with absolute certainty.[/quote]
Do you know this ^ with absolute certainty?[/quote]
Asked and answered.
I admit I could be wrong about all of this.
Do you?[/quote]
I think you misunderstood. Do you know with absolute certainty that you can’t know with absolute certainty?[/quote]
Like I said, I admit I could be wrong. Lacking perfect knowledge, nothing is absolutely certain, including the assertion that nothing is absolutely certain.
Do you honesty admit that you could be wrong?
If not, you are claiming absolute certainty for your beliefs.
I claim that I could be wrong, and you claim that you must be 100% right. Whose claim is more extreme? Which of us is more likely to be right?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Just because we can’t know anything with 100% certainty doesn’t mean everything is 0% certainty. >>>[/quote]Yes it does. If there is NOTHING that is 100% certain then EVERYTHING is 100% uncertain and thus meaningless. Your poetic protestations to the contrary are the proverbial “boy whistling in the dark”. That’ll eventually be your next reluctant concession because you’re a smart guy with
a dose of common grace in your sin.
The only escape is God. And not jist any ol God will do. Only the God of Christianity triumphantly defeats this strangling intellectual/spiritual trap. And not jist any ol version of Him ether. Only Paul, Augustine and Calvin’s God is so capable because all the others are subject to the same contingent uncertainty that you are. If the movement of one single sub atomic particle or the rendering of one moral decision by any person, angel, demon or Satan himself in all of history occurs in defiance of His decree and providential government then not even HE can be certain and we can all hence eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.
Don’t look now, but in the Christian scriptures, despite all the most violent assertions of the contrary, we do in fact find just such a God who works ALL things according to the good pleasure of His own will (Ephesians 1)
Again, all of this is why I DO NOT bother with arguing evidence or logical “proofs” with unbelievers. The cosmological argument proves the existence of some impersonal ultimately pantheistic idol and disproves (in it’s own realm) the existence of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is either absolutely first or not at all.
[/quote]
Incorrect.
Just because something isn’t 100% certain doesn’t mean it is 0% certain.
If that were the case, all propositions would be equally likely, unless they were 100% certain.
An invisible pink unicorn prances across the sky every morning and evening, pulling the sun along with it.
There is a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow that magically disappears once you arrive.
Michelle Bachmann will be our next president.
Obama is a muslim.
I have ten toes.
It will rain in Dallas today.
The sun will rise tomorrow.
I will win the lottery.
You will be struck by lightning.
I will get 1,000,000 heads in a row when I flip a normally balanced quarter onto the table.
I will get 2 heads in a row when I flip a normally balanced quarter onto the table.
Obviously, some of the above assertions are more likely to be true than others. None of them is impossible, and none of them is 100% certain.
Certainty is a continuum, and all assertions lie somewhere along that continuum, with none being at either extreme of the continuum.
Lacking knowledge of all things doesn’t mean we can’t predict some events with higher accuracy than other events, or that all events are equally likely.
It’s not a black and white universe, although religion often portrays it as such.
[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:
“Do not search for the truth;
only cease to cherish opinions.”
Seng-ts’an - 3rd Zen Partriarch
“To free yourself from all the error’s inherent in the truths we snatch at…”
Carl Jung
…
It would probably be missing the point to argue for these words, so I won’t.[/quote]
Eastern Philosophy is garbage.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
If you read the thread, I was responding to a brilliant premise offered by Pat, and with which both Tiribulus and I heartily agreed. [/quote]
To what are you refering to…I made several regarding this?[/quote]
I was referring to your statement that we can’t know anything with certainty unless we actually know everything.[/quote]
Oh ok, yes that is correct, technically it’s true. But in faith I know the truth, even though I can’t know everything. And no I could never ever prove it…If I could, it would not be faith.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:
“Do not search for the truth;
only cease to cherish opinions.”
Seng-ts’an - 3rd Zen Partriarch
“To free yourself from all the error’s inherent in the truths we snatch at…”
Carl Jung
…
It would probably be missing the point to argue for these words, so I won’t.[/quote]
Eastern Philosophy is garbage.[/quote]
I think truth can be found in all philosophies.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
If you read the thread, I was responding to a brilliant premise offered by Pat, and with which both Tiribulus and I heartily agreed. [/quote]
To what are you refering to…I made several regarding this?[/quote]
I was referring to your statement that we can’t know anything with certainty unless we actually know everything.[/quote]
Oh ok, yes that is correct, technically it’s true. But in faith I know the truth, even though I can’t know everything. And no I could never ever prove it…If I could, it would not be faith.[/quote]
“…in faith I know the truth”
This seems a contradictory statement, since faith is hope and belief rather than knowledge.
[quote]Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about
what we do not see.[/quote]
[quote]In all matters of religious epistemology we come to the
question of distinguishing between absolutely provable knowledge and
that which is faith-dependent to some degree or other… In other
words, men of strong faith “act like” they have absolute knowledge,
even though in this life they can never have more than a strong
faith.[/quote]
[quote]Faith of any sort is based on probability… In a world of
fallible beings, imperfect senses, and partial experience, absolute
certainty is only a theoretical concept[/quote]
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:
“Do not search for the truth;
only cease to cherish opinions.”
Seng-ts’an - 3rd Zen Partriarch
“To free yourself from all the error’s inherent in the truths we snatch at…”
Carl Jung
…
It would probably be missing the point to argue for these words, so I won’t.[/quote]
Eastern Philosophy is garbage.[/quote]
I think truth can be found in all philosophies.
[/quote]
Maybe, but that’s not why I think it sucks. I think it sucks because eastern philosophers always made statements and never backed them up.
Sure they may sound all lofty and profound, but are they correct.
Further, the eastern philosopher’s counter argument was always of the nature that if you think a conclusion is wrong, your just not lofty enough and enlightened enough to get it. Hogwash.
Western philosophy is way more accurate in that everything needs to be backed up. You can’t just drop a bomb and walk away, you have to defend it.
[quote]forlife wrote:
“…in faith I know the truth”
[/quote]
It is. That’s just what it is. I can’t make a logical argument to defend it. I know truths based on faith. It’s technically correct to say that I don’t know them. But I do know them through faith. Something else that will sound funny is that I have found faith way more reliable than reality. In the end, it just works out.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Again, all of this is why I DO NOT bother with arguing evidence or logical “proofs” with unbelievers.
[/quote]
Hmm, I thought you didn’t bother with them because your bad at them…
Well that’s just lousy reasoning all around, so yep you are bad them. So now you need to defend this statement. How do you suppose one is different than the other? I suspect your going to call me a bunch of names, drop a few lines of random scripture, insult the RCC and run away, but I am giving you a fair shot to defend your statement with out stamping your feet and putting on a show…