Who Profits From Bird Flu Scam?

I had written another 3 pager in response of this, some parts were even funny, but when I tried to go back to edit after the preview I got an infiuriating message from MS Explorer. Should have written in Word but didn’t want to have to recheck all the apostrophes.

This will be much shorter.

This discussion will end for it is impossible for anyone to discuss evidence-based medicine when the basic notion of what is the concept of placebo and its implication in clinical research escapes the understanding of one of the main parties involved in the discussion.

I shall not forget the Fourth Basic Law of Human Stupidity a third time in two days.

This is not to be a coward and run away from a losing battle in front of an undefeatable enemy, but one has to cut their losses, in my case time prior to an exam and bend like the reed.

I won’t be the shepherd going after the lost sheep. That’s the job for another dude.

But good luck on that, last time I checked, he’s dead.

AlexH.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Your arguments in defense of allopathic medicine fall short in light of how the system is designed and utilized. What you call “evidence” is merely a string of educated guesses, that do not explain anything scientifically.

Now I’m not going to go on and on about this like you have, because I can prove my point very quickly.

The current Allopathic process of determining if a new drug is effective involves giving one group of patients the active ingredient, one group a placebo, and if the study is done correctly a control group that doesn?t get either. None of the groups know what group they are in and whether the “pill” they are receiving is active or placebo. In a good study, even the researchers don’t know. That would be “double-blind” for those with the double digit IQ.

The determining factor in Allopathic medicine is based on the premise that if the active substance works better than the placebo it is determined to be effective (support the efficacy) of the substance for treating whatever they are focusing on.

Now, here is the point; Allopathic medicine neither understands nor has an effective measure of the placebo effect. They don?t know how it works, what systems are involved, and it’s mechanisms. AND YET, they still use it as a measure for the effectiveness of new substances. Using a process that is not fully understood as a measure is NOT SCIENTIFIC! So, my friend, Allopathic medicine is not scientific and no more valid than the use of actually holistic approaches.

Next, your assertion that Allopathic medicine is more scientifically valid is a biased statement based on a biased view of how data should be gathered. I’m sure most on this forum don’t know what we are talking about so I will explain further. Dandalex is basically saying that Western Medicine is “scientifically proven” because it is measured and proven valid in controlled laboratory experiments and other “Alternative” healthcare systems are not. So because alternative approaches don’t typically use this same form of scientific inquiry they are not valid. So basically he is saying that the only valid measures of testing and measuring outcomes is in a controlled environment. However, the fact that Allopathic medicine has a poor track record of resolving chronic health issues is evidence that this method of inquiry is not supported by positive outcomes. At least not for chronic conditions. .

In contrast, holistic health care systems are tested and found valid using mostly empirical data, which at times is more valid than controlled clinical data as the patient does not live in the laboratory, and as such, it does not take the patient?s actual living environment into account when determining the efficacy of a treatment. So the Allopathic system is in fact short sighted and their approaches do prove that Allopathic medicine does treat the disease condition and not the individual. So the actual practice of Allopathic medicine is contrary to your assertions.

[/quote]

[quote]Yo Momma wrote:
Tamiflu anyone?
[/quote]

Okay, bro… but Tamiflu works. Like Gangbusters it works. I don’t care who came up with it, or whatever. If my friends here at work start getting exposed to a nasty strain of flu I don’t care if it was Bozo the clown (Bush maybe) who knew Kermit the frog, who was banging Miss Piggy on the Tamiflu board of directors, I’m going to make sure my pals get the stuff.

[quote]Remz wrote:
PS. I’m not of the opinion that bird flu is a scam. The sad thing is, people will always try to make money from a scare, not matter how serious it is.
[/quote]

Okay, good post. The guys I know who use accupunture aren’t against western medicine (being osteopathic doctors themselves), so the anti-stuff you wrote about isn’t what I’m seeing, anyway.

The whole tamiflu thing I’m looking at like a “better safe than sorry” way. I don’t see it as “profiteering from fear” myself, but then I don’t go looking too hard for evil in people when stupidity or shortsightedness explains it just as well. I can’t say that having large stockpiles of Tamiflu in the face of a possible flu pandemic as being shortsighted, stupid, or evil in any way. That just looks like common f’n sense to me. But hey… I’ve been wrong plenty of times before.

Okay, I don’t know about the efficacy of the damned vaccine being purchased, but I’ll give props to the administration for taking the situation seriously and trying to be prepared for it.

Holy shit. Just imagine if everyone knew about something like this and did nothing at all about it… does that sound familiar to anyone?

So, all you right wing nuts are cordially invited to suck my sack, as this is a clear case of me highlighting something I think the administration did right.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
The whole tamiflu thing I’m looking at like a “better safe than sorry” way. I don’t see it as “profiteering from fear” myself, but then I don’t go looking too hard for evil in people when stupidity or shortsightedness explains it just as well. I can’t say that having large stockpiles of Tamiflu in the face of a possible flu pandemic as being shortsighted, stupid, or evil in any way. That just looks like common f’n sense to me. But hey… I’ve been wrong plenty of times before.
[/quote]

You might have misinterpreted what I was saying. Tamiflu works, and it will be a major advantage to have it during the time it takes to manufacture a vaccine for the H5N1 influenza strain. Remember that people who will be the most susceptible to develop life-threatening complications for avian flu will be individuals with compromised immune systems, i.e. elders, children and patients with specific disease. It would be important to keep enough Tamiflu in stock for those people, and not disperse it throughout the country to people who will only develop flu symptoms (severe ones, but
I was saying that people will take advantage of the scare (and it is a realistic one) to make money. For example, you probably heard that Tamiflu and it’s analogs were selling for 100$ a dose on eBay. Same thing for homeopathic, naturopathic or any other remedies. People will recommend anything to make money, no matter if it works or not. This is the sad part. It was more of a general comment then specifically aimed at the current crisis.

For the questions about the vaccine, well the one that is currently manufactured is directed against the virus responsible of the “human flu” that is going on in Asia right now. This is the same as every year. We isolate the strain present in Asia, and turn it into a vaccine that is inoculated to the population in october/november. For the avian flu, we have to wait to see if there is an antigenic drift between the avian strain and a human strain. Basically, what this means is the human HxNx will become HxN1 or H5Nx if there is an exchange in the genome. So, until this happens, we cannot manufacture a vaccine. The reason that this strain will be more dangerous is because our immune system will have no memory, or partial memory, of this new strain, and it won’t be recognize as the flu, unlike every year where only a small portion of the genome changes (an antigenic shift; no interspecies cross). Bottom line, the vaccine currently being manufactured is useless against avian flu, but it is better than nothing.

Remz

Lorisco, the sad thing is that you pretend to understand the principles of double-blind studies, but from what you wrote, this is obviously not the case. Double-blind studies are aimed at differentiating the efficacy of a compound from the one of another similar compound, or from nothing, i.e. a sugar pill, i.e. a placebo. The most important aspect of these studies is to submit the test subjects to the same conditions. That is why most of these studies are made in closed environments, with a control of what people eat, what they do and how long they sleep (to a certain degree of course). And of course, to further remove the impact of exterior influence, test subjects are randomized in a category, so all bias will disappear. The goal here is to standardize everything to remove variables from the experiment.

What you consider being the source of the efficacy of the placebo is social environment and mental state. Well it is true, it does influence placebo effect. But the thing is, it also influences the efficacy of a drug. A depressed person without social support will respond a lot less to a specific treatment than a mentally healthy individual. It has been proven a countless number of time. This is not what we are trying to evaluate in a double-blind. It would make it extremely complicated to analyse results by considering that this subject as a dysfunctional family to cope with during his treatment, while this one has a loving dog, and this one sleeps all day. That it why double-blind studies are done in a controlled environment, with specific criteria that subject have to fulfill in order to minimize exterior influences. So, when doing a randomized double-blind study, a pharmaceutical company hopes that his product will be better than nothing (a placebo) when all exterior influences are removed. It is the same when a naturopathic product is being compared with a placebo. If it is shown that its effect is equal to the placebo, than this means that in a given environment, this product will be as efficient as a placebo, i.e. as nothing.

“and if the study is done correctly a control group that doesn’t get either.”
For the record, no study is done with a group of subject receiving nothing. The placebo group is the negative control. Considering what I wrote above, this should be clear to you by now.

" Using a process that is not fully understood as a measure is NOT SCIENTIFIC!"
Well, it might be true that we don’t fully understand the placebo effect, and this is why randomized double-blind studies have controlled conditions. Remember, the goal of this study is to compare a product with an empty pill. If we wanted to study the effect of the environment on a specific treatment, well a double-blind study is not the way to go. Also, your declaration (above) is total crap, since we do not fully understand gravity, but we are able to calculate the mass of stars millions of light year away. We do not understand the workings of the brain, yet IQ scoring has been shown to be correlate to the position a person will be in a given society.

Since when is allopathic medicine not “holistic”? It as been proven that a good social environment helps a specific treatment. Unlike what you think, we do not only prescribe drugs and tell the patient to fuck off and come back if it doesn’t work. A good MD (this implies that, like in every profession, there are people who suck at their job) will take time to talk to the patient, to analyse the social and mental structure of the individual in front of him. He will then propose solutions to the problems he might have, and to a follow-up on the changes that are being made. And if he doesn’t have time to fully evaluate his patient, well he will ask for a consult with another health professional. So, that being said, allopathic medicine treats the disease AND the individual, unlike alternative medicine who only treat the individual.

Remz

I’ve got a dumb question for the smart folks…

Why not have the CDC create various cross strains (under controlled conditions of course) similar to the expected epidemic strain and then create vaccines based on those strains.

Wouldn’t this give us a chance to create a resistance to something bearing some of the characteristics of the cross-strain flu supposedly coming down the pipeline at some point?

Or, is there just too much variability to make this a worthwhile endeavor?

[quote]vroom wrote:
I’ve got a dumb question for the smart folks…

Why not have the CDC create various cross strains (under controlled conditions of course) similar to the expected epidemic strain and then create vaccines based on those strains.

Wouldn’t this give us a chance to create a resistance to something bearing some of the characteristics of the cross-strain flu supposedly coming down the pipeline at some point?

Or, is there just too much variability to make this a worthwhile endeavor?[/quote]

Too much variability, vroom.

The antigens of a virus are quite long sequences of proteins. Imagine what you are proposing as kind of thinking like “we’ll just make a BUNCH of different keys based on what kind of lock it looks like on the outside, and we’ll probably find one that unlocks my car…” It’s just easier to copy one of your car keys that we know works.

Dude Rumsfeld wasnt CEO of Gillad He was CEO of Searle before Pharmica bought them out

[quote]doogie wrote:
I love the by-line:

by Drew

Who dares question Drew’s credibility?[/quote]

i do, beacuse hes wrong first, Rumsfeld wasnt chairmen of Gillad he was ceo of Searle bfore Pharmica bought them out in 02’ and usualy Josph mercola is dead wrong about what ever he talks about i wouldnt listen to him

I read most of the posts of the threat before I realized they were all from back in 05.
Anyway…anyone interested in learning a bit more about the actual threat from the bird flu should check out “China Syndrome” by Karl Taro Greenfeld.
It is pretty eye opening, along the lines of “The Hot Zone”.