Who Made God?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Time doesn’t even exist in black holes[/quote]

Professor X,

I agree that it is absurd to consider, by definition, that an omnipotent entity needs to follow linear time rules (as the question “Who Made God?” is completely absurd, and an oxymoron if I ever saw one, by the way), but I need to correct you on the above: time still exists in Black Holes.

From the perspective of somebody outside the Event Horizon, time does seem to freeze for everything inside, but if you are inside the Black Hole, technically time still exists for you – it’s just that your notion of time becomes infinitely distorted as you fall deeper and deeper inside the Black Hole.

But time still exists inside a Black Hole.

(we could also engage in a discussion about what means to say that “time exists”, since but I’m pretty sure everybody would be bored to death even before we started)

Sorry for the anal-retentive rant, but I tend to be anal-retentive when it comes to Physics (not too surprising since my father was a Physicist).

62

[quote]ZEB wrote:
More people have moved away from God (over the past several years) and the Christian Bible as the cornerstone of what is right and wrong. And when we move away from such an “anchor” each person begins to think that they (deep inside their little brains) have the real answer to what is right and wrong.[/quote]

The fact that you don’t realize that Christians do that as much as everybody else – as proven by SteveO telling Professor X he was no Christian, or conservative Christians saying Jimmy Carter was no Christian either, since HE KILLS BABIES!

A lot of people I respect and admire are Christians. The fact that they are Christians in no way changes my opinion of them. I respect Christian beliefs, I have tremendous respect for the Bible (which I’ve read multiple times and count amongst my reference books), and I have much admiration for Jesus Christ and His teachings.

What I don’t respect is people saying that only Christians can really know what is right or wrong.

Being a Christian might entitle you to Eternal Life, but it doesn’t entitle you to anything else, including claiming moral high ground, having a monopoly on what is right and wrong and judging other people. In fact, Christians are no different, better, worse, more or less enlightened than anyone else. They’re just flawed humans, with random distorted perceptions that were influenced by a myriad of factors, like everybody else – Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Agnostics, Atheists, etc.

Your actions define you, not your beliefs.

63

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You will never award me a big gold star. Nor will you ever give me credit for any point that I post.

Message boards don’t work that way, at least not around here.
[/quote]

Not true. You appear to be full of assumptions about me, others, life the universe and everything. I’m not interested in arguments - I like doing those face to face. Here, I like to debate, take an interest in other’s points of view and find out what goes on in other people’s noggins.

As I read on I’m thinking you might have missed an opportunity to earn that star… I bet you’re kicking yourself already…

Hope you enjoyed getting that off your chest. Now what exactly does it have to do with me? I have never moved away from Christianity. I have never been raised in any faith.

You don’t have a point of reference for someone who’s morality and ethics are born from within, just as because of my upbringing I don’t have any point of reference for someone who lives their life governed by the scripture/priesthood/church etc.

However, that is why I ask questions and don’t make assumptions about people. Please stop telling me what my politics are and more importantly, how I will respond to your posts.

The assertion that morality is subjective is a fact, plain and simple. There is no hint of political correctness in that assertion and I find it bizarre in the extreme that you would consider that.

For the record I do not find any religion offensive. In truth I find very little offensive. And yet YOU have asserted that Christianity is offensive. Fairly sure many Christians would disagree with you there, although they might find having someone such as yourself as the defender of their faith a little disturbing, considering the odd tangents you keep finding yourself sidetracked down.

It may have escaped your notice, but I am British and subsequently couldn’t give two fucks about who voted for Kerry or Bush.

The world doesn’t revolve around you, y’know…

Again, what on Earth does who voted for Bush have to do with the assertion that morality is subjective?

The debate between you and I is not one of religion, but one born of your response to a statement I made about morality.

I feel sad that you enter into a debate knowing in advance that you won’t change someone’s mind. It makes me wonder why you responded to me in the first place if not in an attempt to be mildly offensive to anyone who doesn’t share your beliefs.

Now that, finally, is something I can agree with. My excuse is my laptop is a foot away from me most of the day.

PS No gold star. C- Must try harder. You brought it on yourself… lol

64

Zeb, Zeb, Zeb… Sigh…

Find a post of mine where I mocked someone for being of faith and then get back to me. My best friend teaches in Sunday School at church and I have friends of all denominations. Your comment is ridiculous. Stop tarring everyone with the same brush.

I lived in a dodgy area when I was young and got mugged by on seperate occasions by 5 different black guys. Should I now assume every black guy is a mugger? Seriously fella, grow up.

All I have heard from you is mocking people for believing in what can be proven, mocking people’s who’s politics you think you can distil from their posts about the nature of morality and frankly almost Dada-esque rants about how people that voted for Kerry don’t believe in God.

Sure you CAN quote scripture but when you do, you seem to do it as though that in itself is an end to the argument. Surely you should be able to understand that to an atheist it means very little, other than an interesting read. Subsequently I asked that you spoke what you thought on the matter and how you interpreted those passages.

Oh, and I appreciate you trying, but I had already gathered as much as ‘he lived, he walked the earth and he died for our sins’.

My question was about the mechanics of how a soul is saved by Christ dying on the cross. If you don’t want to answer that I can respect your right not to but to say ‘read the old testament and get back to me’ is a bit of a cop-out.

Finally, I am an atheist and I have faith in many things. I don’t judge you for your beliefs as you seem to judge me, but it is a wonderful thing to simply have faith in one’s self and to know at the end of the day I have to look myself in the mirror and know that I have done good not out of fear, but because of what I believe and have faith in.

I judge everyone I come into contact with on their own merits regardless of race, gender, nationality, sexuality or religion. It might be an idea if you began to do the same.

65

The Bible says that He has always existed:…“even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God” (Psalm 90:2). Quite simply, God has no beginning and no end. So, what made God or where did God come from? He didn’t. He always was.
Also, physics has shown that time is a property that is the result of the existence of matter. Time exists when matter exists. Time has even been called the fourth dimension. But God is not matter. In fact, God created matter. He created the universe. So, time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing and time had no meaning (except conceptually), no relation to Him. Therefore, to ask where God came from is to ask a question that cannot really be applied to God in the first place. Because time has no meaning with God in relation to who He is, eternity is also not something that can be absolutely related to God. God is beyond eternity. Eterneity is a term we finite creatures use to express the concept of something that has no end–and/or no beginning. Since God has no beginning or end, He has no beginning. This is because He is outside of time.

66

[quote]gwann33 wrote:
Also, physics has shown that time is a property that is the result of the existence of matter. [/quote]

I hate to be the Physics-Nazi, but this is getting overboard.

First, time is not a “property”. Time is a fundamental quantity. Second, it has nothing to do with matter – there is no causal relationship and, in fact, there is no relationship at all between time and matter.

The only (weak) connection you can make between the two is highly indirect: matter creates gravity; gravity does distort spacetime. However that is not only a gross oversimplification, it is far from a direct relationship, especially considering that gravity is very misunderstood, and it certainly does not prove transient causality, and even if it did it would be with spacetime, not time on its own.

Furthermore, there is clearly also a concept of time for energy – photons do NOT move infinitely fast, and behavior is very well contained in the boundaries of spacetime.

With regards to time as a dimension: only in the context of spacetime (a model that combines three-dimensional space and one-dimensional time into a single construct called the space-time continuum) time plays the role of the 4th dimension. According to Euclidean space perception, our universe has three dimensions of space, and one dimension of time. By combining the two concepts into a single manifold, physicists are able to significantly simplify the form of most physical laws, as well as describe the workings of the universe at both supergalactic and subatomic levels in a more uniform way, that’s all.

67

[quote]hspder wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Time doesn’t even exist in black holes

Professor X,

I agree that it is absurd to consider, by definition, that an omnipotent entity needs to follow linear time rules (as the question “Who Made God?” is completely absurd, and an oxymoron if I ever saw one, by the way), but I need to correct you on the above: time still exists in Black Holes.

From the perspective of somebody outside the Event Horizon, time does seem to freeze for everything inside, but if you are inside the Black Hole, technically time still exists for you – it’s just that your notion of time becomes infinitely distorted as you fall deeper and deeper inside the Black Hole.

But time still exists inside a Black Hole.

(we could also engage in a discussion about what means to say that “time exists”, since but I’m pretty sure everybody would be bored to death even before we started)

Sorry for the anal-retentive rant, but I tend to be anal-retentive when it comes to Physics (not too surprising since my father was a Physicist).[/quote]

Time exists in the Event Horizon. Time doesn’t exist by any standard we are aware of inside a black hole. We are talking about an entity or anomaly that swallows all matter and light. There is no time that can be measured.

68

[quote]hspder wrote:

With regards to time as a dimension: only in the context of spacetime (a model that combines three-dimensional space and one-dimensional time into a single construct called the space-time continuum) time plays the role of the 4th dimension. According to Euclidean space perception, our universe has three dimensions of space, and one dimension of time. By combining the two concepts into a single manifold, physicists are able to significantly simplify the form of most physical laws, as well as describe the workings of the universe at both supergalactic and subatomic levels in a more uniform way, that’s all.
[/quote]

Black holes are not confined in our dimension. They are a break through it. Science, in all reality, has no clue what a black hole even is. It is only known what it isn’t.

69

hspdr, mind you, I am very interested in singularities and event horizons and have been since I was a kid. According to one astrophysicist I asked at Nasa about this when I was in high school, at the center of a black hole spacetime has infinite curvature and matter is crushed to infinite density under the pull of infinite gravity. At a singularity, space and time cease to exist as we know them. The laws of physics as we know them break down at a singularity, so it’s not really possible to envision something with infinite density and zero volume. If you think of the event horizon as the path towards the singularity, time would exist up to the point that the line is crossed and the zero point in space of the singularity is reached.

70

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Professor X wrote:
semper_fi wrote:

You have a limited view of the bible and a relationship with God. I seem to remember you saying somewhere that you have never read the bible. Why is it so hard to believe in a God or Creator? If God did not create everything then what/who did? I believe that God has always existed (Genesis). I?m sure a lot of Theists are curious how and why. I know that I am. A better place to start is with whom. The Bible is the key to who God is. Try starting there and maybe you will find the answers that you are looking for.

Me Solomon Grundy

How can god have always have exsisted? if the universe needs a creator then so does god
[/quote]

Stephen Hawking’s book “A Brief History of Time” proclaimed, I believe, that Time and Space have no beginning and no end. Maybe God is nothing more than these two things.

I’ve read the Bible, gone to Catholic school, and am an agnostic. I seriously think that man just can’t wrap it’s head around all this and have a true answer. It’s just something we eventually find out when we die.

It’s like trying to comprehend “infinity”. You just can’t do it.

71

[quote]Professor X wrote:
electric_eales wrote:

How can god have always have exsisted? if the universe needs a creator then so does god

How do you figure? I explained one concept that I happen to believe is a possibility. Time doesn’t even exist in black holes so how can you claim that an entity that created this universe must adhere to the rules of time as far as needing a beginning and an end?[/quote]

So what you are saying is that something (in this case god) can come from nothing?
Well then it should be plausible that the universe was always there and does not need a creator. It is good that you use black holes as an example, although it has not been proven that time does not exist in black holes and that this is merely a theory, if this theory (which in my opinion is quite solid) is true then maybe if there has to be a creator then the creator of our universe could simply be one solitary black hole that is not governed by the laws of time and space.

72

OK…number one…AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Now that I have that out of the way, physics discussions like this make me cry on the inside. I might be just a slightly eccentric tennis pro in real life, but everyone that has a physics degree here raise your hands. Hey, my hand is up!

  1. There was NOTHING before the initial moment of the big bang. No energy, no spacetime, definately no matter. Nothing. Time did not exist. This is not an easy concept to wrap your mind around. Let it sink in.

  2. Matter and time are most definately interrelated. All mass has an equivalent relativistic energy. Energy distorts spacetime. This distortion is dependent on the density of energy. This distortion is the cause of the gravitational force (according to relativistic theory at least). The degree of the distortion determines the rate at which time passes.

Time passes slower the closer you are to any mass. This is a proven and measurable effect. Clocks run measurably slower on the surface of the earth than they do in orbit for instance.

You can certainly have spacetime that exists without matter in it. There is some fundamental debate as to whether spacetime can exist totally free of any energy at all.

  1. The center of a blackhole is a singularity. At this singularity the curvature of spacetime is infinite, the flow of time is undefined, and the rules of physics as we know them appear to break down. Approaching this singularity, time still passes as it should…just increasingly slowly as the curvature of spacetime increases drastically the closer you get to a singularity. The reason you can’t survive falling into a blackhole (which would take an awful long time relative to an outside observer by the way) is that the local distortions in spacetime become so great that you would literally be ripped apart atom by atom.

In other words…most of the people who have been arguing are both right and wrong at the same time. I invite those of you at least vaguely familiar with quantum mechanics to join me in one big physics nerd chuckle…

73

[quote]
Stephen Hawking’s book “A Brief History of Time” proclaimed, I believe, that Time and Space have no beginning and no end. Maybe God is nothing more than these two things.[/quote]

While I highly recommend everyone read A Brief History of Time, even now that it is getting slightly dated from a physics perspective (Hawking has obviously written more recent books that I think people should read as well), I would like to point out that Hawking speaks with varying levels of authority throughout the book.

The end of the book in particular is largely speculative and philosophical in nature. Hawking kind of pushes his own particular version of big bang cosmology (which he has since revised many times) and comments on the philosophical implications of his view.

74

[quote]
Atheists have plenty of faith. And that faith is in NOTHING![/quote]

Please explain how it requires me to have faith NOT to believe something.

Stop trying to understand atheism within the context of theism. They are not the same.

:-p

I don’t ever recall ridiculing you. Although I do tend to be sarcastic…but that’s all in fun. I will continue to point out and ridicule abject stupidity whenever I see it though. coughsteveocough

75

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
Professor X wrote:
electric_eales wrote:

How can god have always have exsisted? if the universe needs a creator then so does god

How do you figure? I explained one concept that I happen to believe is a possibility. Time doesn’t even exist in black holes so how can you claim that an entity that created this universe must adhere to the rules of time as far as needing a beginning and an end?

So what you are saying is that something (in this case god) can come from nothing?
Well then it should be plausible that the universe was always there and does not need a creator. It is good that you use black holes as an example, although it has not been proven that time does not exist in black holes and that this is merely a theory, if this theory (which in my opinion is quite solid) is true then maybe if there has to be a creator then the creator of our universe could simply be one solitary black hole that is not governed by the laws of time and space.

[/quote]

What was the point of your post? You are basically writing that you agree with me but now want to argue about what to call God. That’s stupid. You’ve lost ground. Quit typing.

76

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
Solomon Grundy wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Professor X wrote:
semper_fi wrote:

You have a limited view of the bible and a relationship with God. I seem to remember you saying somewhere that you have never read the bible. Why is it so hard to believe in a God or Creator? If God did not create everything then what/who did? I believe that God has always existed (Genesis). I?m sure a lot of Theists are curious how and why. I know that I am. A better place to start is with whom. The Bible is the key to who God is. Try starting there and maybe you will find the answers that you are looking for.

Me Solomon Grundy

How can god have always have exsisted? if the universe needs a creator then so does god

Stephen Hawking’s book “A Brief History of Time” proclaimed, I believe, that Time and Space have no beginning and no end. Maybe God is nothing more than these two things.

I’ve read the Bible, gone to Catholic school, and am an agnostic. I seriously think that man just can’t wrap it’s head around all this and have a true answer. It’s just something we eventually find out when we die.

It’s like trying to comprehend “infinity”. You just can’t do it.[/quote]

But doesn’t it make sense that if God is the Creator of all and therefore outside of His Creation, that we couldn’t wrap all of our finite minds around an infinite God who exists outside of time and space? Just a thought…

77

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
Professor X wrote:
electric_eales wrote:

How can god have always have exsisted? if the universe needs a creator then so does god

How do you figure? I explained one concept that I happen to believe is a possibility. Time doesn’t even exist in black holes so how can you claim that an entity that created this universe must adhere to the rules of time as far as needing a beginning and an end?

So what you are saying is that something (in this case god) can come from nothing?
Well then it should be plausible that the universe was always there and does not need a creator. It is good that you use black holes as an example, although it has not been proven that time does not exist in black holes and that this is merely a theory, if this theory (which in my opinion is quite solid) is true then maybe if there has to be a creator then the creator of our universe could simply be one solitary black hole that is not governed by the laws of time and space.

[/quote]

And this is MORE PLAUSIBLE then the belief that God Created everything? Seems like more of a “fairy tale” to me…

…always existed: so you are making the creation (the universe) itself God. See what I mean? We humans almost invariably have to believe that something created everything. We search for a god of our own imagination if we reject the God of the Bible…

78

[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:
ZEB wrote:
You will never award me a big gold star. Nor will you ever give me credit for any point that I post.

Message boards don’t work that way, at least not around here.

Not true. You appear to be full of assumptions about me, others, life the universe and everything.[/quote]

Not at all, merely making assumptions about this type of discussion, on this board. And I do so from past experience.

[quote] I’m not interested in arguments - I like doing those face to face. Here, I like to debate, take an interest in other’s points of view and find out what goes on in other people’s noggins.

As I read on I’m thinking you might have missed an opportunity to earn that star… I bet you’re kicking yourself already…[/quote]

Now it’s you who is making an assumption.

[quote]But I will tell you this:

More people have moved away from God (over the past several years) and the Christian Bible as the cornerstone of what is right and wrong. And when we move away from such an “anchor” each person begins to think that they (deep inside their little brains) have the real answer to what is right and wrong.

It goes something like this:

"I’m and independent thinker…I make my OWN decsions…Bible? GRRRR…(bristle bristle). Big important thinking men like me don’t need that outdated document. I can decide what’s right and wrong independently…I read and am very very educated…And I like philosophy.

Okay, it may not go exactly like that with everyone…

Hope you enjoyed getting that off your chest. Now what exactly does it have to do with me? I have never moved away from Christianity. I have never been raised in any faith.[/quote]

Never raised in “any faith?”… No one would ever be able to tell.

:slight_smile:

I think John Wayne Gacey’s morality was “born from within.”

Of course everyone is different.

Gosh you’re smart…(Looking up at you all starry eyed)

[quote]Why is it politically correct?

That’s an easy one: The politically correct do not want anyone to be offended. That’s really the essence of political correctness.

I could post sites…But what’s the point right?

“Let everyone do whatever they want and above all DO NOT offend anyone.”

Christianity is basically an offensive religion (yea I said it and I’m glad I did? :slight_smile:

Why?

I think you know why.

And the politically correct don’t like Christianity one bit because it is so very offensive.

“There are many ways to heaven just be nice and smile to everyone and agree with everyone and…well above all DO NOT OFFEND ANYONE!..Oops did I already say that? Well it’s important.”

Hence, the continuation of “moral relativism.”

The assertion that morality is subjective is a fact, plain and simple. There is no hint of political correctness in that assertion and I find it bizarre in the extreme that you would consider that.[/quote]

The politically correct usually respond that way…

Really? I find plenty of them offensive.

Not surprised.

It is very offensive to many who are non Christian.

Really? Name them.

I’ve not gone down any odd tangents. That you find them odd is not surprising. You have made as many assumptions about me as I have about you.

[quote]Why the “left?”

That’s even easier.

Take a look at who voted for Bush in the last Presidential election and who voted for Kerry.

I don’t have the figures in front of me but it broke down to regular church attendees voting for Bush.

Kerry’s big block: Non church goers.

“moral relativism” IS NOT born of the right.

It may have escaped your notice, but I am British and subsequently couldn’t give two fucks about who voted for Kerry or Bush.[/quote]

That didn’t escape me. If you recall in my second post to you I mentioned that.

Now that surprises me.

Of course it does. MY morality. MY world. MY outlook. It’s all subjective you know.

Now please respect that and stop don’t offend me.

:slight_smile:

Did you forget the question you asked?

[quote]Okay…please write back soon. Or, don’t write back. You won’t change my mind and I won’t change your’s.

The debate between you and I is not one of religion, but one born of your response to a statement I made about morality.[/quote]

Yea you said it was subjective and I think that’s the biggest crock of crap pushed by the politically correct.

Hey!..we just went full circle.

I feel sad that you have not noticed that that has NEVER been done on these threads.

Why don’t we both cheer up.

Me first.

:slight_smile:

Hey, the buzz word of the politically correct comes out. (Looks at watch) that didn’t take all that long.

Yes…I wanted badly to OFFEND you. I live to OFFEND the politically correct.

You got me figured out.

No, not really. I just did not want to let that asinine (subjective bla bla) statement pass without comment.

[quote]And anyone who visits this thread has probably already made up their mind as well and will not be influenced by a couple of guys like us who apparently have plenty of time on their hands.

Perhaps that would be a better topic: Why do we have so much time on our hands?

lol

:slight_smile:

Now that, finally, is something I can agree with. My excuse is my laptop is a foot away from me most of the day.

PS No gold star. C- Must try harder. You brought it on yourself… lol[/quote]

Well…(scratches head) I’ll have to give you at least a passing grade. This has been three posts and you have not yet resorted to name calling.

That is pretty freaking amazing in my book.

79

[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:
Zeb, Zeb, Zeb… Sigh…

Find a post of mine where I mocked someone for being of faith and then get back to me. My best friend teaches in Sunday School at church and I have friends of all denominations.[/quote]

I never said YOU mocked anyone.

Did they hit you in the head?

“Grow up?” Okay…you’re getting there…But you don’t really start the attacks until the end of the thread.

More non church goers DID vote for Kerry than Bush. You didn’t read that poll huh?

That must be your assumption, I never said that.

Is it okay for YOU to make assumptions?

Agreed.

[quote]Oh, and I appreciate you trying, but I had already gathered as much as ‘he lived, he walked the earth and he died for our sins’.

My question was about the mechanics of how a soul is saved by Christ dying on the cross. If you don’t want to answer that I can respect your right not to but to say ‘read the old testament and get back to me’ is a bit of a cop-out.[/quote]

PM me and I will go into detail.

Yea, I know, remember I assumed that.

Oh, yea I get it. We Christians are simply cowards who FEAR God and that’s why we do what we do.

Good Job!

Thank you for living up to my expectations.

Now you assume that I am a sexist, racist and other “fine” things.

When in reality YOU have lived up to every single assumption that I have made about you from the beginning!

Good Job!

80

[quote]Mordred wrote:

Just about every single atheist that I have ever seen debate on this forum eventually uses ridicule. I could name them all but they would only post again calling me names…Ha ha.

:-p

I don’t ever recall ridiculing you. Although I do tend to be sarcastic…but that’s all in fun. I will continue to point out and ridicule abject stupidity whenever I see it though. coughsteveocough[/quote]

I don’t think you ever ridiculed me. And to be fair I did say “just about every atheist” right?

However, you have ridiculed other Christians.

And…you and I did just do this whole “there is no God prove it bla bla bla…” thing not long ago.

You really want to repeat it?

Why don’t you just go back to the thread where we already did it and reminisce.