When Socialism Fails

[florelius]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

I’m not trolling you or anything, just want to know – The Nazis had a slogan, ‘Community before Self’. Could you give me translation? I’m not tricking or anything like that; genuine question.
[/quote]

It was “Gemeinnutz geht vor Eigennutz”

That however does not translate as “Community before Self”, it is more like “that what benefits the community comes before that what benefits oneself/yourself”

[/quote]

its similar to benthams and j.s.mills utilitarianism.

utilitarianism: a moral action is the one that creates the most total happines.

[OdysseusUnbound]

I’m all for laissez-faire capitalism. Look at how beautifully it worked in Victorian England. What a paradise THAT was

[duffyj2]

John S. wants to have his cake and eat it too.

[orion]

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]ReignIB wrote:

[quote]Chomskyian wrote:
Headhunter, you seem quite fixed in thinking that the name socialism by definition means that hard working people are always taken advantage of. This can happen under capitalism, socialism, or any other system. It is closed-minded to think that in all cases capitalism = good and socialism = bad.

Socialism-phobia resulted from the United States’ propaganda throughout the 20th century. Listen to a wise man explain why:

Chomsky on Socialism

[/quote]

All this “workers running production” BS looks good on paper.
In practice it leads to replacing of the business owners with bureaucrats who get their salaries paid no matter how the enterprise they are in charge of is doing thus destroying any kind of competitive drive.
On top of that, free market competition gets replaced by a humongous bureaucratic machine that attempts to “plan” every aspect of the economy which basically drives it into the ground.

As far as “socialism-phobia” being a result of US propaganda - you don’t think USSR and the Eastern Bloc countries didn’t have anti - capitalist propaganda do you ?
Somehow it didn’t work so well eh?

[/quote]

bureacratic control over production is far from a democratic economy. please try again.[/quote]

So we come together and vote whenever we buy a role of toilet paper?

Try again.

[/quote]

who are we who vote for the toilet paper. be a bit more specific.

but you orion think that it is impossible to have a factory, a mall etc that are controled by those who work there?
[/quote]

Yes, or else they would have built one themselves.

[orion]

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Socialism has to always evolve into National Socialism…or Soviet Socialism (as in USSR).
[/quote]
Wrong. If you look at countries like Sweden, Finland or Norway (granted Norway has a lot of oil, so we are kinda “cheating”) they are nothing close to “National Socialism” or “Soviet Socialism”, which by the way has nothing to do with true socialism.
[/quote]
Give it time, they will get there.
[/quote]
Do you seriously think so? I don’t think you have a good grasp of the political climate in Scandinavia. The Scandinavian countries are nowhere near National Socialism or Soviet Socialism, and they are not moving in either of those directions.

What is your basis for believing that this is where Scandinavia is headed?[/quote]

you seem to think you know so much about our society, but can’t take it if someone thinks they know something about your society.

funny
[/quote]
Not really, I don’t mind him commenting on Scandinavia. I also asked him what the basis for believing that the scandinavian countries are headed towards either national socialism or soviet socialism and he didn’t come up with an answer. Probably because there is nothing suggesting that such a thing is about to happen. The basic structure of the scandinavian welfare state has been very stable for very long and National Socialism or Soviet Socialism are probably among the least popular ideologies in Scandinavia.

[/quote]

He did come up with an answer, you just did not read it or understand it.

[orion]

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

I’m not trolling you or anything, just want to know – The Nazis had a slogan, ‘Community before Self’. Could you give me translation? I’m not tricking or anything like that; genuine question.
[/quote]

It was “Gemeinnutz geht vor Eigennutz”

That however does not translate as “Community before Self”, it is more like “that what benefits the community comes before that what benefits oneself/yourself”

[/quote]

its similar to benthams and j.s.mills utilitarianism.

utilitarianism: a moral action is the one that creates the most total happines.
[/quote] [/quote]

See, there you have the basis for national socialism, socialism, liberalism, social democracies and fascism right there.

Its an etatist utilitariamism, a very misguided one because the basic principles are unsound, but utilitariamism nonetheless.

By an other standards it requires theft, coercion, lies and murder.

All for the greater good of course, as defined by those in power.

Interestingly enough, the economic logic of average utilitarianism requires death panels when medical services are socialized.

The Nazis euthanasia programms were the logical conclusion of average utilitarianism, they were just more thorough and consequent than most of todays liberals are willing to be.

Also, eugenic programms were very popular in Skandinavian countries which oh so despise national socialism ideology, not to mention that the Swedish " Folkhemmet" idea was a big ijnspiration for the Nazis and the major proponents of that idea had nothing but praise for Hitler in the 30s.

[orion]

[quote]OdysseusUnbound wrote:
I’m all for laissez-faire capitalism. Look at how beautifully it worked in Victorian England. What a paradise THAT was ;)[/quote]

Compared to what?

To all other places that then existed?

Except for the US, hell yes.

[florelius]

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

I’m not trolling you or anything, just want to know – The Nazis had a slogan, ‘Community before Self’. Could you give me translation? I’m not tricking or anything like that; genuine question.
[/quote]

It was “Gemeinnutz geht vor Eigennutz”

That however does not translate as “Community before Self”, it is more like “that what benefits the community comes before that what benefits oneself/yourself”

[/quote]

its similar to benthams and j.s.mills utilitarianism.

utilitarianism: a moral action is the one that creates the most total happines.
[/quote] [/quote]

See, there you have the basis for national socialism, socialism, liberalism, social democracies and fascism right there.

Its an etatist utilitariamism, a very misguided one because the basic principles are unsound, but utilitariamism nonetheless.

By an other standards it requires theft, coercion, lies and murder.

All for the greater good of course, as defined by those in power.

Interestingly enough, the economic logic of average utilitarianism requires death panels when medical services are socialized.

The Nazis euthanasia programms were the logical conclusion of average utilitarianism, they were just more thorough and consequent than most of todays liberals are willing to be.

Also, eugenic programms were very popular in Skandinavian countries which oh so despise national socialism ideology, not to mention that the Swedish " Folkhemmet" idea was a big ijnspiration for the Nazis and the major proponents of that idea had nothing but praise for Hitler in the 30s.

[/quote]

well orion. I know that racism and race research where common in skandinavia ( not proud of it, but it was not the marxist in my country who pushed for it ).

about utilitarianism: I agree its a dangerous moralphilosophy and thats why I am no utilitarian. socialliberalist are utilitarian, and mill is offcourse an importent socialliberal thinker. but in my country utilitarianism is often used as an defence for capitalism haha. marxism is not based on utilitarianism btw.

[Chomskyian]

“The Employee Ownership Act of 1999 (H.R. 1462) that would have allowed employees to own at least 50% of all voting stock in an Employee Owned and Controlled Corporation (EOCC). Also, employees in EOCCs would have been allowed to vote on all corporate issues, including board elections.”

Man, what socialist punk would sponsor this bill? Oh that’s right, Mr. freedom himself, Ron Paul.

"Paul has also been an advocate of employee-owned corporations (such as employee stock ownership plans). In 1999, he co-sponsored The Employee Ownership Act of 1999, which would have created a new type of corporation (the employee-owned-and-controlled corporation) that would have been exempt from most federal income taxes.

[molnes]

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Socialism has to always evolve into National Socialism…or Soviet Socialism (as in USSR).
[/quote]
Wrong. If you look at countries like Sweden, Finland or Norway (granted Norway has a lot of oil, so we are kinda “cheating”) they are nothing close to “National Socialism” or “Soviet Socialism”, which by the way has nothing to do with true socialism.
[/quote]
Give it time, they will get there.
[/quote]
Do you seriously think so? I don’t think you have a good grasp of the political climate in Scandinavia. The Scandinavian countries are nowhere near National Socialism or Soviet Socialism, and they are not moving in either of those directions.

What is your basis for believing that this is where Scandinavia is headed?[/quote]

you seem to think you know so much about our society, but can’t take it if someone thinks they know something about your society.

funny
[/quote]
Not really, I don’t mind him commenting on Scandinavia. I also asked him what the basis for believing that the scandinavian countries are headed towards either national socialism or soviet socialism and he didn’t come up with an answer. Probably because there is nothing suggesting that such a thing is about to happen. The basic structure of the scandinavian welfare state has been very stable for very long and National Socialism or Soviet Socialism are probably among the least popular ideologies in Scandinavia.

[/quote]

He did come up with an answer, you just did not read it or understand it.

[/quote]
No, you didn’t. If you did then explain it. You just said give it time. That is not a proper answer. Like I said there is nothing suggesting that such a paradigm shift is about to occur within the scandinavian welfare states.

[orion]

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

I’m not trolling you or anything, just want to know – The Nazis had a slogan, ‘Community before Self’. Could you give me translation? I’m not tricking or anything like that; genuine question.
[/quote]

It was “Gemeinnutz geht vor Eigennutz”

That however does not translate as “Community before Self”, it is more like “that what benefits the community comes before that what benefits oneself/yourself”

[/quote]

its similar to benthams and j.s.mills utilitarianism.

utilitarianism: a moral action is the one that creates the most total happines.
[/quote] [/quote]

See, there you have the basis for national socialism, socialism, liberalism, social democracies and fascism right there.

Its an etatist utilitariamism, a very misguided one because the basic principles are unsound, but utilitariamism nonetheless.

By an other standards it requires theft, coercion, lies and murder.

All for the greater good of course, as defined by those in power.

Interestingly enough, the economic logic of average utilitarianism requires death panels when medical services are socialized.

The Nazis euthanasia programms were the logical conclusion of average utilitarianism, they were just more thorough and consequent than most of todays liberals are willing to be.

Also, eugenic programms were very popular in Skandinavian countries which oh so despise national socialism ideology, not to mention that the Swedish " Folkhemmet" idea was a big ijnspiration for the Nazis and the major proponents of that idea had nothing but praise for Hitler in the 30s.

[/quote]

well orion. I know that racism and race research where common in skandinavia ( not proud of it, but it was not the marxist in my country who pushed for it ).

about utilitarianism: I agree its a dangerous moralphilosophy and thats why I am no utilitarian. socialliberalist are utilitarian, and mill is offcourse an importent socialliberal thinker. but in my country utilitarianism is often used as an defence for capitalism haha. marxism is not based on utilitarianism btw.[/quote]

In a way it is, because he says that if you move beyond capitalism the money that is wasted competing would be availabe for the workers which makes socialism inherently superior which is why it would outcompete capitalism.

Did not quite turn out that way, but the idea was very close to utilitarianism .

Anyhow, the defining element of the Nazis was not racism, but national socialism , a Folkshemmet if you will.

Also, utilitarianism is the basis of all of todays welfare economics.

[orion]

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Socialism has to always evolve into National Socialism…or Soviet Socialism (as in USSR).
[/quote]
Wrong. If you look at countries like Sweden, Finland or Norway (granted Norway has a lot of oil, so we are kinda “cheating”) they are nothing close to “National Socialism” or “Soviet Socialism”, which by the way has nothing to do with true socialism.
[/quote]
Give it time, they will get there.
[/quote]
Do you seriously think so? I don’t think you have a good grasp of the political climate in Scandinavia. The Scandinavian countries are nowhere near National Socialism or Soviet Socialism, and they are not moving in either of those directions.

What is your basis for believing that this is where Scandinavia is headed?[/quote]

you seem to think you know so much about our society, but can’t take it if someone thinks they know something about your society.

funny
[/quote]
Not really, I don’t mind him commenting on Scandinavia. I also asked him what the basis for believing that the scandinavian countries are headed towards either national socialism or soviet socialism and he didn’t come up with an answer. Probably because there is nothing suggesting that such a thing is about to happen. The basic structure of the scandinavian welfare state has been very stable for very long and National Socialism or Soviet Socialism are probably among the least popular ideologies in Scandinavia.

[/quote]

He did come up with an answer, you just did not read it or understand it.

[/quote]
No, you didn’t. If you did then explain it. You just said give it time. That is not a proper answer. Like I said there is nothing suggesting that such a paradigm shift is about to occur within the scandinavian welfare states. [/quote]

Scroll back, you will find it.

Though I doubt that “it is inherent in etatist utilitarianism” is going to help you much.

Especially in average utilitarinism, geographically defined by a nation states borders.