What's Up With Chimps?

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
They just needed to eat too many calories to maintain basic functioning for the circumstances they would face.
[/quote]

Interesting. How does it compare with elephants for example or gorillas? They are much larger in size yet they seem to be doing fine on their diet. Not to mention that they are vegetarians. It seems they would need huge amount of calories to maintain their body weight.
I guess their DNA is different in that respect, but it would be very interesting to know how are they maintaining their size on low calorie vegetarian diet.

-Yustas

[quote]wufwugy wrote:
uh what? what, then, is responsible for evolution?[/quote]

I don’t think it is known for a fact. There’re a number of different theories.
I think the guy who got a Nobel Prize for DNA discovery wrote a book about Perspermia. So, that is one take on it.
There are other people that argue abut irreversible complexity and implications of intelligent design.

-Yustas

[quote]Miserere wrote:
wufwugy wrote:
Chris (NZ) wrote:
uh what? what, then, is responsible for evolution?

Random genetic mutation.

randomness? is there any proof that our genes arbitrarily mutate?

Yup, loads of proof. Here’s a brief intro to mutations and natural selection:
…[/quote]

i think my question is misunderstood. but that’s okay because depending on perspective i could’ve used the word “unarbitrarily” in place of “arbitrarily.”

random genetic mutations, by definition, means that what happens is of no consequence to genetics. this is not true though. it’s been shown that many mutations are not random and are elicited by things that happen. so why wont lifting weights affect genes? there’s no proof that it wont (unless it’s done for one generation, but we’re not talking about that).

another point others have made is that genetic alterations are the same as natural selection. this is wrong. if this were the case then organisms would have reached a point and plateaued.

[quote]yustas wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
They just needed to eat too many calories to maintain basic functioning for the circumstances they would face.

Interesting. How does it compare with elephants for example or gorillas? They are much larger in size yet they seem to be doing fine on their diet. Not to mention that they are vegetarians. It seems they would need huge amount of calories to maintain their body weight.
I guess their DNA is different in that respect, but it would be very interesting to know how are they maintaining their size on low calorie vegetarian diet.

-Yustas
[/quote]
they’ve always been vegetarian. besides, who told you that they dont eat a shitload?

[quote]wufwugy wrote:

randomness? is there any proof that our genes arbitrarily mutate?[/quote]

Depends how randomness defined. Something can be random within a certain set of rules. An object falls mainly in a random fashion, but it falls according to certain laws like gravity, air thickness, etc. If we are not aware or are not fully aware of these rules it may be a while until we understand not only where DNA came from, but how and if it changed “randomly”.

-Yustas

[quote]yustas wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
They just needed to eat too many calories to maintain basic functioning for the circumstances they would face.

Interesting. How does it compare with elephants for example or gorillas? They are much larger in size yet they seem to be doing fine on their diet. Not to mention that they are vegetarians. It seems they would need huge amount of calories to maintain their body weight.
I guess their DNA is different in that respect, but it would be very interesting to know how are they maintaining their size on low calorie vegetarian diet.

-Yustas

[/quote]

Not sure why other species and genuses have been able to grow to large sizes. That’s not something I learned. But I suspect the very fact that they thrive as vegetarians has a lot to do with it. Don’t elephants eat a ton of grass? I’m not even sure how low-calorie such a diet is. Cows seem to do well on it. But human beings cannot live on a diet of grass. Even if living on minimal animal product, we needed fruits and veggies to the best of my knowledge. Things much more scarce than grass which required more energy to find.

Also, I suspect that our brains have a lot to do with it. It takes a lot of energy to keep our brains going. Animals with less developed brains don’t have this. I also learned that eating meat released a constraint on brain development. It allowed less energy to be devoted to the gut than when we were eating a more vegetarian-based diet and this allowed greater brain development. Most anthropologists don’t believe it was one of the DRIVERS of brain development, but it did serve to release a constraint.

[quote]Miserere wrote:
[i]A gene mutation is a permanent change in the DNA sequence that makes up a gene.

[/quote]

DNA has a Double-helix structure. The second helix is used for a back-up specifically in case of DNA damage (or mutation) DNA in most cases can repair itself by using this second copy. How does DNA “know” to use that second copy and why it is there in the first place is not fully understood. So called “junk” genes and their function is not understood either.

-Yustas

[quote]Kablooey wrote:

It’s just one of those things where “sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.”

And, sometimes it works only for a while, though that while may be millions or even hundreds of millions of years. That species die out at all helps show how limited nature’s potential is to have a goal-oriented evolution.
[/quote]

But for species to even exist too many things had to come together just about perfectly. Things that seem to be outside of evolution, like the distance from our planet to the Sun, the air, temperature, atmosphere, gravity, radiation, etc too many to name here.
Did the law of gravity also followed evolution?

-Yustas

[quote]yustas wrote:
Kablooey wrote:

It’s just one of those things where “sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.”

And, sometimes it works only for a while, though that while may be millions or even hundreds of millions of years. That species die out at all helps show how limited nature’s potential is to have a goal-oriented evolution.

But for species to even exist too many things had to come together just about perfectly. Things that seem to be outside of evolution, like the distance from our planet to the Sun, the air, temperature, atmosphere, gravity, radiation, etc too many to name here.
Did the law of gravity also followed evolution?

-Yustas
[/quote]

Sure, there are lots of things that came together long before life as we know it existed on this planet. There are some arguments for intelligent design with a lot of these things. But the evolution of species itself occurs because of random mutations as far as we can tell. But even here, it’s not totally clear-cut. Because random mutations lead to changes, and if those changes are adaptive and result in greater reproductive success they’ll be passed on causing a larger evolution over time. Species rise up and die out seemingly at random when they are no longer suitably adapted to the environment. BUT, over the eons the trend does seem to be towards greater complexity.

So, I personally don’t think it’s cut and dry whether we’re ultimately evolving towards something. Not we as in humans. Life itself. Maybe our speciies is just an intermediate stage.

The elephant size question is a good one, and brings to mind the eating patterns of herbivores everywhere, as opposed to carnivores. Most herbivores I’m aware of (elephants, water buffalo, etc.) eat all the time. This is their life, the go from one food source to another. In this way they partially make up for the low nutrient density of their food sources. Carnivores on the other hand seem to eat more infrequently, they may make a kill every few days.

The rest of the time their lounging, sociallizing, following their food sources, etc. Meat is the polar opposite of leaves and grass in that it is incredibly nutrient dense (when fresh and raw) Fruit is kind of a half way food group as far as nutrient density goes. Now the interesting part of this is the proposed effects these food groups have had on various creatures, things such as the structure of their digestive organs to their brain size.

One good example of this is a comparison in both brain size and gut structure between two types of amazon monkeys. One, the howler monkey subsists primarily on leaves, has a much larger gut and a much smaller brain (relative to the comparison). The other, not sure of the name but it subsists primarily on fruit, has a much larger brain, and smaller gut. More variables arise when you look at other factors. The Howlers tend to have a very small territory (don’t need to travel far for leaves), move as a group, and have a fairly simple social structure. The other fruit-eating monkeys have a MUCH larger territory (travelling quite far in search of their fruit), work more independantly and have a much more complex social and communication structure.

Several theories arise as to why they are so different, some say it’s due to the difference in the nutrient density of their respective foods, the more nutritious fruit fueling a more advanced brain. Others suggest that the activities involved in aquiring their food are what stimulate the difference in brain size. The fruit seekers must employ more memorization skills to search for their bounty. Most likely it is a combination of both.

Come right around to the human question, it has been proposed that the introduction of meat, and other more nutrient dense food to our diet was a major influence in our journey towards becoming the “smartest” creatures on the planet. In regards to the chimp strength debate, while the physical differences between two species are obvious and serve to explain why we have this difference in strength; I would also argue that lifestyle plays a large role as well.

Take an average human baby, raise him like a chimp, similar diet (vegetables, meat), same environment (in the jungle baby, swinging from trees etc, no XBox here) I would think that that human child would sport some serious differences in physical prowess, etc. Maybe not to chimp standards, but far superior to the average urban human for sure.

D.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

So, I personally don’t think it’s cut and dry whether we’re ultimately evolving towards something. Not we as in humans. Life itself. Maybe our speciies is just an intermediate stage.[/quote]

Maybe we are evolving to the point from where we can only evolve by our own genetic manipulation and if we don’t or make bad mistakes then sianora humans.

-Yustas

Interesting post, Druze.

[quote]yustas wrote:
jsbrook wrote:

So, I personally don’t think it’s cut and dry whether we’re ultimately evolving towards something. Not we as in humans. Life itself. Maybe our speciies is just an intermediate stage.

Maybe we are evolving to the point from where we can only evolve by our own genetic manipulation and if we don’t or make bad mistakes then sianora humans.

-Yustas[/quote]

Yes, perhaps. Food for thought.

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
wufwugy wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
Swing from tree branches all day every day for a year, and you’ll see amazing gains in strength.

greater than the most elite male ring specialist?

Now do it for 200 generations…[/quote]

Uhhh, children do not inherit acquired characteristics from their parents. Only thier genes. Brush up on your biology.

[quote]knuckles wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
wufwugy wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
Swing from tree branches all day every day for a year, and you’ll see amazing gains in strength.

greater than the most elite male ring specialist?

Now do it for 200 generations…

Uhhh, children do not inherit acquired characteristics from their parents. Only thier genes. Brush up on your biology.[/quote]

True, however if you’re talking about certain acquired characteristics being essential to the survival of our species, a need to reproduce with people that carry traits conducive to excelling in said characteristics would manifest itself in our descendants genes.

Another note on the brilliant adaptability of the human body. I remember watching a special on the Discovery channel (ok, you can stop laughing now) about the daughter of missionaries that grew up playing with monkeys in her backyard. As a result of climbing trees most of her life and adapting to the movements of her tree-climbing monkey friends, she possesses world class coordination, agility and joint strength - particularly in her fingers (she can do strict pullups for reps with just her middle fingers). I think she’s only 16 or 17 now and is considered one of the best rock climbers in the world. I was blown away by her athleticism and strength. Lb. for lb, It was far beyond many of the most elite athletes out there.

A bodybuilder’s son might have good potential to build a lot of muscle (genotype) but he won’t have the amount of muscle his father did when he is born (phenotype). My biology is sorta rusty but that should be a good explaination.

Maybe it would be an interesting study to have an out-of-shape guy “mate” with a lot of out-of-shape women, then get the guy and women in great physical shape and have him mate with the same women again (maybe a few years later) and check out the outcome of the average offspring.

I’m talking large numbers of women here, and large numbers of offspring to get a good average.

I’ll volunteer…for the good of science of course. I just need some magazines for the first experiments. Though that could lead to a LOT of childcare down the road.

On a side note, anyone ever notice how intellectual some bodybuilding/nutrition sites can become? I mean the real good ones like this site. They seem to show the relatively high level of intelligence that comes from many people with our type of interests and goals (until of course, I come in with some post like this :wink:
Even in the off-topic and political forums.

[quote]andy bumphren wrote:
A bodybuilder’s son might have good potential to build a lot of muscle (genotype) but he won’t have the amount of muscle his father did when he is born (phenotype). My biology is sorta rusty but that should be a good explaination.[/quote]

Right. And two ‘hardgainers’ who eat and train their ass off and get quite big, are more likely to have a skinny child than a big one. This is oversimplifying (since naturally skinny parents can have muscular children), but the point is that the parents’ training will have no impact on their kid.

[quote]mythwalker wrote:
ive heard that some apes, so it might apply to monkeys too, have muscle atachments that are more biomecanicaly effective for power think of how much force calves can produce for their sise.)than humans which is a possible reason for a similar sized animal being much stonger than us.[/quote]

Yes, and there is a tradeoff for speed. Even if it had the necessary coordination, I doubt if a chimp could throw a baseball very far.

Humans are better than most animals and far better than all other primates at distance running. There is a recent theory that natural selection for superior distance running had a large effect on the evolution of the human form (distance running for hunting purposes, I suppose).

As to the matter of strength comparisons, body structure must be considered. I’ve seen many articles over the years mentioning that a 100 lb chimp can “deadlift” 1000 lbs. Sure, this shows tremendous grip strength, but the chimps arms reach nearly to the ground, so that should be compared to something like a 1/4 rack pull in a human, not a deadlift.

I take it our integumentary system is what allowed humans to travel large distances so well? We regulate body temperature better than any other land mammals (or animals for that matter) I know of.