What Would Lincoln Say?

[quote]pushharder wrote:

She might have asked the question of Lincoln, “If emancipation of the slaves were such a critical issue (and it was) why didn’t the federal government make a grand offer to buy all of them and set them free?”

[/quote]

Because they couldn’t afford to.

I’m using pretty round numbers here, but from what the internet tells me, there were a little over 4 million slaves in the US in 1860 (census). Average market price a few years before the Civil war was a little less than $1700 per slave.

Doing the math, that puts claiming Eminent Domain at about $6.8 billion when the GDP of America was about $4.3 billion.

The supreme irony is in Lincoln’s famous: “Let us bind up the wounds…” speech. In other words: “Okay, I’m going to bomb the shit out of your cities, destroy your homes, burn your crops, kill your cattle, and leave your wives and children standing by the side of the road to freeze and starve. Now let’s all be brothers.”

And Lincoln is remembered as the kind and forgiving soul who only wanted to help the nation ‘bind up the wounds’! ROFLMAO!!!

[quote]pushharder wrote:
ProwlCat wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Could it be that Abe, despite his canonization in American political history as a great man, was to an extent just an ordinary politician, i.e., one who says one thing and does another?

I happen to subscribe to the theory that says the events that surrounded his presidency made him a “great man” and not the other way around.

Is that a real theory, or did you just invent it, then subscribe to it? Less than great men do not become great because of circumstance and events. Great men show their greatness when given the opportunity…

You may be right. Then again you may be wrong. Billy Joel told us that.[/quote]

Well said. On another note, I heard he’s touring with Elton John again. God help us.

Compensated emancipation:

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=5100

http://www.mrlincolnandfreedom.org/inside.asp?ID=35&subjectID=3

Read ‘Bitterly Divided: The South’s Inner Civil War’ by David Williams which refutes your nonsense of an undivided Confederacy. One of the reasons they lost the war was the fact that they were too busy fighting amongst themselves (and deserting in droves to join the Union army).

Re: Tyrant Lincoln closes down the New York World!!!

A hack journalist, looking to get rich in the gold market, conjured up a phony presidential proclamation – complete with a presidential seal and Lincoln’s sig – calling for a day of fasting, humiliation and prayer, and announced a phony draft of 400,000 more men – and it was printed in the New York World. Gold shot up 10%. It was a fraud commited by a piece-of-shit scumbag opportunist, and Lincoln shut down the paper for a week. What would they do about this situation in libertarian fairyland? It was the only time Lincoln personally had a hand in shutting down a newspaper, although Butler and Burnside went over the line.

James Newcome, editor of the San Antonio (Texas) Alamo Express, wrote: ‘Is this still a land where liberty loves to dwell? Where freedom is not denied utterance? Where men are not to be persecuted for opinions sake? If it is, it would be well for those who differ with us to remember it.’ On April 17th he blamed the men of Charleston for starting the Civil War ‘upon the question of supplying sixty men (at Ft Sumter) with pork and beans for a few days.’ Less than a month later, with help from those glorious libertarians in the Confederate government, the Alamo Express had burned to the ground.

What about the Confederate government tossing William Brownlow, editor of the Knoxville Whig, into prison for writing: [The average Southern soldier], swearing and swaggering in every crowd he enters, that he will go out of the Union because he can’t get his rights, by having the privilege guaranteed to take slaves into the territories, when, in, fact, he does not own a Negro in the world, never did, and never will; and withal can’t get credit in any store in the country where he lives, for a wool hat or a pair of brogans!

Read ‘Lincoln and Civil Liberties’ and ‘The Myth of Confederate Constitutionalism’, both by Mark Neely Jr. The come back and explain how Lincoln was an evil tyrant and the good old libertarian Confederacy were A-OK. Newflash: They both had to put their foot down – as did the Founders during the Revolution. Jefferson Davis called for conscription before Lincoln. Jefferson Davis suspended habeas corpus. Jefferson Davis suppressed dissent. Both sides were fighting for national survival and they did what they felt had to be done to that end.

Re: The Union Army were butchers – and the glorious Confederates righteous gentleman warriors!

Lincoln was derided early in the war for being a pussy, a compromiser, for fighting the war ‘with a squirt gun filled with rose water’ and derided late in the war for being a tyrant, letting Sherman the Ogre run wild, and not compromising on the slavery issue and ending the war. So which is it? Was he a pussy or a tyrant? Why did he apparently have ‘the negro on his mind’ if he didn’t give a shit about blacks?

Not even going into the Confederates disgusting behavior toward black Union soldiers (such as impaling unarmed surrendering black Union soldiers on tent poles and lighting them on fire at Fort Pillow), the myth that the evil Yankees blazed a path through the South, raping and pillaging, and the Confederates tip-toed through the North is more laughable endlessly-recited Lost Cause bullshit. The Confederates rarely invaded the North – mostly because when they did their armies were badly damaged. When the Confederate army invaded Pennsylvania, for instance, they had no problem setting fire to Pennsylvania towns, looting stores, robbing banks ($28,000 from York, for example), and stripping the land of livestock, horses and food. Confederate scouting parties also rounded up all of the free blacks they could find during their invasions (most born free) and sent them south, claiming they were escaped slaves.

Re: Lincoln – along with the other antislavery politicians – supported voluntary colonization (Lincoln backed off after 1862) because they were evil and hated blacks.

In 1862 Lincoln consulted a black delegation on colonization. ‘Your race are suffering, in my judgement, the greatest wrong inflicted on any people.’ The legacy of that wrong in the form of discrimination, he feared, would prevent them ‘from being place on equality with the white race.’ His words proved completely accurate unless you read history books on Reconstruction approved by the Daughters of the Confederacy. (Personally, I would suggest ‘The Bloody Shirt: Terror After the Civil War’ by Stephen Budiansky.)

He didn’t believe white Southerners – or even most white Northerners – would live alongside free blacks on an equal basis. Unfortunately, he was correct.

He initially supported VOLUNTARY colonization; one of the reasons was so he had a bone to throw everyone – many Southerners wouldn’t live alongside free blacks, many Northerners didn’t want to go to war and get their arm shot off to free blacks, who would then move north and compete for jobs. He discarded his support of voluntary colonization after blacks were enlisted in the Union Army and Lincoln continually talked up their performance in battle to the Northern public.

In 1863, Frederick Douglass visited the White House to discuss the treatment of black Union soldiers. ‘I was never more quickly or more completely put at ease in the presence of a great man than in that of Abraham Lincoln’, wrote Douglass, who praised Lincolns ‘entire freedom from popular prejudice against the colored race.’ Lincoln was the first prominent white American ‘who in no single instance reminded me of the difference between himself and myself, of the difference of color.’

Whats funny is Douglass personally knew most of the hardcore abolitionists so lionized by the modern day Far Left, yet Lincoln was the first prominent white American who in no single instance reminded Douglass of any racial difference between them. Yikes, he sounds like Adolf Hitler!

Lincoln also called Douglass back to the White House in 1864 to confer with him on a plan to sneak slaves north to freedom in case the Union lost the war. Very strange for Lincoln to be dealing with these ‘trivial’ matters in the midst of a devastating civil war considering how much a hated blacks and all…

He could have rescinded the Emancipation Proclamation, ended the war and ensured his reelection. (As he wrote, ‘There have been men who have proposed to me to return to slavery the black warriors of Port Hudson and Olustee to their masters to conciliate the South. I shall be damned in time and in eternity for so doing.’) So he didn’t. He had ‘the negro on his mind’ and it pissed off the Copperheads and a large part of the Northern public.

There is an oft-quoted, out-of-context quote here from the Lincoln/Stephen Douglas debates in racist Southern Illinois with Lincoln responding to Douglas painting him as a black-loving abolitionist (unpopular in those days for an office-seeker to be labeled with such a tag), yet curiously nothing about the last speech Lincoln ever gave calling for black suffrage. (The speech John Wilkes Booth heard, and mtters, ‘That means [negro] citizenship…that is the last speech he will ever give.’

As far as the 13th Amendment passing after his death – completely irrelevant. Lincoln was responsible for it, forced it through a reluctant Congress and made several backroom deals to make it a reality.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

I bet that if a WWII came around, you’d be surprised by what Obama would do.

Did you mean CWII, or WWIII?

And I daresay I wouldn’t be surprised.[/quote]

A WWII- a massive conventional war against a foreign enemy.

A Civil War… that’s a different story.

Short message on emancipated compensation.
I cited, a year ago, the move by some including AL in HofR in the 1840s to initiate emancipation by compensation. It was the Southern representatives who violently opposed it. No way, no how, not ever, were the slaves to be freed.

Further, the calculated value of slaves in the US was the second highest capital in the country–second only to all the real estate–public and private–in the vast country. To buy these slaves “in the market” could have cost all the real value in the country.

Last: other countries, other situations. In each, a different misery. I will not offer a sad history, for example, of the Brazilian emancipation, Pedro II and the starvation of the elderly under “compensated emancipation.”

HH still eats paint chips for breakfast.

And thanks, Jack_Dempsey, for the vision.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Short message on emancipated compensation.
I cited, a year ago, the move by some including AL in HofR in the 1840s to initiate emancipation by compensation. It was the Southern representatives who violently opposed it. No way, no how, not ever, were the slaves to be freed.

Further, the calculated value of slaves in the US was the second highest capital in the country–second only to all the real estate–public and private–in the vast country. To buy these slaves “in the market” could have cost all the real value in the country.

Last: other countries, other situations. In each, a different misery. I will not offer a sad history, for example, of the Brazilian emancipation, Pedro II and the starvation of the elderly under “compensated emancipation.”

HH still eats paint chips for breakfast.

And thanks, Jack_Dempsey, for the vision.[/quote]

Vision? Wow, maybe I should rake together some nonsense in the opposite direction…would that be ‘vision’ too?

Facts:
(1) Thousands of newspaper men were imprisoned in the North.

(2) The Shenandoah Valley and a swath 60 miles wide from Tennessee to South Carolina were scorched (two of my ancestors were in the Union Army that did this btw).

(3) Lincoln ignored the opinion of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and suspended Habeus Corpus.

I realize that there is no morality in war but let’s quit idolizing this guy.

Oh, and I think the 600,000 soldiers who died in the War might think paying for the slaves might have been a better idea.

I just hate that Lincoln gets credit for freeing the slaves in the emancipation proclamation.

First, he had no such power or authority.

Second, it explicitly guaranteed northern slave states (yes there were several of them) got to keep there slaves. Even slave territory now under federal control (Tennesse, even parts of virginia) got to keep their slaves.

Third, it gave any succeeded states a deadline to return to the union and keep their slaves.

It was nothing but a political move to destroy support for the confederacy abroad.

I myself have never though it worth a million US lives to preserve an alliance, but to each his own.

I find it ironic that those who castigate a president for bombing Iraqi cities celebrate a president who turned artillery on American ones.

The South wanted to leave in peace. Lincoln would have none of it. He reminds me of the angry husband who beats his wife for wanting to leave their ‘union’. Really.

Yeah, your muscles beat the weaker wife into submission. Congratulations.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Otep wrote:
pushharder wrote:

She might have asked the question of Lincoln, “If emancipation of the slaves were such a critical issue (and it was) why didn’t the federal government make a grand offer to buy all of them and set them free?”

Because they couldn’t afford to.

I’m using pretty round numbers here, but from what the internet tells me, there were a little over 4 million slaves in the US in 1860 (census). Average market price a few years before the Civil war was a little less than $1700 per slave.

Doing the math, that puts claiming Eminent Domain at about $6.8 billion when the GDP of America was about $4.3 billion.

I’ve heard a figure of $1,000 for the market cost of the average slave.

What was the cost of the Civil War?[/quote]

The question was about the cost of emancipation by compensation, not about the cost of a peace secured throught the continued enslavement of human beings.

There is no estimable cost of war, I suppose; the term “blood and treasure” leaves me dumbfounded. The tragedy’s cost–to the North and the South both–was in Lincoln’s conscience, and in the Second Inaugural, it is God and not Lincoln who is the Actor. And so the 19th Psalm:

[i]Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said ‘the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether’.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Barack would never order bombardment of cities (which was considered illegal and immoral in Lincoln’s time),

It was illegal and immoral? I want a source for that one.

But aside from that, the Civil War was the first example of Total War on a large scale. It has been employed after in every war since.

There’s something to be said for it’s effectiveness… and I bet that if a WWII came around, you’d be surprised by what Obama would do.

the blocking of ports (illegal against one’s own ports),

Illegal? Again, source.

suspension of Habeus Corpus (only Congress could do that).

Untrue. If it was clear, then we wouldn’t be arguing about it today.

I also suspect that BHO would never order a scorched earth policy, especially in Virginia’s Shenandoah Valley, or in South Carolina.

You’re judging a man that you don’t know and never met on some of the worst hypothetical situations a leader can make. In short, you’re full of shit, as usual.

They DO share a love for increasing the size of the Federal Government though. Gotta give 'em that…

Right, because when Bush got in he drastically cut the size of the… wait a second…

"Though Lincoln acted to suspend the writ, nowhere in the United States Constitution does the president have this power and in fact it is given instead to Congress by any plain reading of the document. Lincoln denied this, asserting "Now it is insisted that Congress, and not the Executive, is vested with this power [suspension of habeas corpus].

But the Constitution itself, is silent as to which, or who, is to exercise the power." As any plain reading of the Constitution reveals, this claim is dubious."

In addition to the overwhelming historical evidence against Lincoln’s interpretation and actions regarding habeas corpus, the standing precedent of the United States Supreme Court also holds that Congress has the power to suspend the writ.

A precedent on the matter was handed down in 1807 by Chief Justice John Marshall. In the case of Ex Parte Bollman and Swartwout Marshall affirmed what had been known without contention by the founding fathers - that the suspension power was given to Congress. His decision read:

"The decision that the individual shall be imprisoned must always precede the application for a writ of habeas corpus, and this writ must always be for the purpose of revising that decision, and therefore appellate in its nature. But this point also is decided in Hamilton’s case and in Burford’s case.

If at any time the public safety should require the suspension of the powers vested by this act in the courts of the United States, it is for the legislature to say so. That question depends on political considerations, on which the legislature is to decide."

It is accordingly of little surprise that this precedent was cited in 1861 when Lincoln’s suspension of habeas corpus was challenged in court.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/813646/posts

By the way, if you published that during Lincoln’s presidency, you’d have been arrested.

But what’s a Constitution anyway? Just a piece of paper! Are we going to let it block our plans for empire?

LOL!!!

[/quote]

I have not read the part of the constitution that states where the powers lie, and I don’t have time to now, but I will.

Again, I didn’t agree with the suspension. I defend it only because in the lens of hindsight, I consider the ends to justify the means.

Had I been alive then, I no doubt would have been outraged and voiced that discontentment. Fuck me, I’d probably be in jail for it too.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:

The question was about the cost of emancipation by compensation, not about the cost of a peace secured throught the continued enslavement of human beings…

I was attempting to measure the cost of emancipation by compensation which would secure the peace but with the discontinued enslavement of human beings

VS.

the cost of the war (not including the casualties)

If you include the casualties then no one on earth could dispute that it would have been cheaper to buy the slaves’ freedom.

I do believe that sans slavery, antebellum U.S.A. was the pinnacle of the American experiment. From 1861 onward we slid further and further into a chokehold by the federal government.

Lincoln started it (all good intentions notwithstanding), FDR codified and reinforced it and today the python is coiled around its prey very nicely. Tomorrow it opens its mouth and begins the digestion process?

[/quote]

Why would that be the pinnacle? Because there was more home rule?

[quote]pushharder wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:

The question was about the cost of emancipation by compensation, not about the cost of a peace secured throught the continued enslavement of human beings…

I was attempting to measure the cost of emancipation by compensation which would secure the peace but with the discontinued enslavement of human beings

VS.

the cost of the war (not including the casualties)

If you include the casualties then no one on earth could dispute that it would have been cheaper to buy the slaves’ freedom.

I do believe that sans slavery, antebellum U.S.A. was the pinnacle of the American experiment. From 1861 onward we slid further and further into a chokehold by the federal government.
[/quote]

I’m starting to come around to that point of view, although that is a mighty big caveat. You should read Daniel Larison’s columns and blog over at the American Conservative.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
pushharder wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:

The question was about the cost of emancipation by compensation, not about the cost of a peace secured throught the continued enslavement of human beings…

I was attempting to measure the cost of emancipation by compensation which would secure the peace but with the discontinued enslavement of human beings

VS.

the cost of the war (not including the casualties)

If you include the casualties then no one on earth could dispute that it would have been cheaper to buy the slaves’ freedom.

I do believe that sans slavery, antebellum U.S.A. was the pinnacle of the American experiment. From 1861 onward we slid further and further into a chokehold by the federal government.

Lincoln started it (all good intentions notwithstanding), FDR codified and reinforced it and today the python is coiled around its prey very nicely. Tomorrow it opens its mouth and begins the digestion process?

Why would that be the pinnacle? Because there was more home rule?

Individual freedom.

Limited federal government.[/quote]

Eh. I disagree. Massive disparity between the poor and the rich, people starving in the ghettos in cities, no fair wages, no unions, no women’s suffrage, no racial equality… sounds like fun if you’re a rich white male, but not much for anyone else.

Sounds like the rest of Europe back then, actually.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
pushharder wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
pushharder wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:

The question was about the cost of emancipation by compensation, not about the cost of a peace secured throught the continued enslavement of human beings…

I was attempting to measure the cost of emancipation by compensation which would secure the peace but with the discontinued enslavement of human beings

VS.

the cost of the war (not including the casualties)

If you include the casualties then no one on earth could dispute that it would have been cheaper to buy the slaves’ freedom.

I do believe that sans slavery, antebellum U.S.A. was the pinnacle of the American experiment. From 1861 onward we slid further and further into a chokehold by the federal government.

Lincoln started it (all good intentions notwithstanding), FDR codified and reinforced it and today the python is coiled around its prey very nicely. Tomorrow it opens its mouth and begins the digestion process?

Why would that be the pinnacle? Because there was more home rule?

Individual freedom.

Limited federal government.

Eh. I disagree. Massive disparity between the poor and the rich, people starving in the ghettos in cities, no fair wages, no unions, no women’s suffrage, no racial equality… sounds like fun if you’re a rich white male, but not much for anyone else.

Sounds like the rest of Europe back then, actually.

Wasn’t perfect then without all those things. Is it now with them?[/quote]

No country will ever be perfect. The goal is “better”. And yes, it is, very much so.