[quote]K2000 wrote:
By the way, the first bill Obama signed (that’s what this thread is supposed to be about, right?[/quote]
No, the thread is about the first executive order he signed.
Executive orders are not bills.
The official line is that the “Certification of Live Birth” short form that Obama put on his website would have noted if Obama was born elsewhere, meaning he couldn’t have been foreign born. I think that’s probably the final word on the issue unless Okubo is ignorant or lying:
http://washingtonindependent.com/51489/birther-movement-picks-up-steam
I still don’t know why Obama doesn’t just release copies of his long form birth certificate…
In my opinion either he believes some people will just never be convinced or he’s hiding an embarrassing personal fact about his parents (perhaps their marital status at the time of his birth). Of course this doesn’t explain his secrecy as regards his college and other records.
Apparently Obama would have been a natural born citizen even if he was born abroad:
Additionally, it seems the law which allowed foreigners to obtain Hawaiian birth certificates only came into effect in 1982!!:
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm
I really don’t know that Ms Okubo would necessarily know if back in 1961, the mother’s affidavit, combined with her in fact having a residence in Honolulu, would have sufficed as evidence or not. I do expect she is fully conversant with modern practices, but knowing exactly what clerks did back in 1961 is a different matter.
As to what fact had Obama wishing to keep his long-form birth certificate secret from all persons – if such exists, and didn’t a while back you say that it didn’t, although the Obama campaign has said that it does exist:
His mother was married to Mr Obama at the time of his birth. So that is not a possible fact being hidden.
The only other potentially embarrassing fact that is thought my at least some to be a reasonable possible explanation for why he had his long-form birth certificate (if it exists) sealed is that no father is listed.
To me that is a weird explanation, as it is listed in the short form.
Other than that, one really is left scratching the head trying to figure out why he would have had it sealed, if it exists, if there’s nothing to hide relevant to his natural-born citizen status or lack thereof. Certainly any are welcome to try coming up with something else that makes sense.
As to the reason “some people will never be convinced,” that doesn’t begin to explain sealing it in the first place.
Then, as you acknowledge, we are left with why he had his kindergarten, college, and passport records sealed.
It’s strange to me that people would simultaneously know that he decided and devoted considerable resources to the task of hiding all these things on deciding to run for President, and actually believe that there is nothing in there that he is dishonestly hiding from the American people that they would have considered relevant to their voting decision.
But then again, in Alice in Wonderland, the Queen made a habit of believing two impossible things before breakfast.
In light of the new evidence I can’t see how it’s at all possible Obama was foreign born. One can still take issue with his secrecy regarding his college and other records, but it hardly seems like a big deal without the citizenship controversy behind it.
so I’m back to thinking the whole birther controversy is bugfuck nuts (and here you guys almost had me convinced).
[quote]valiance. wrote:
The official line is that the “Certification of Live Birth” short form that Obama put on his website would have noted if Obama was born elsewhere, meaning he couldn’t have been foreign born. I think that’s probably the final word on the issue unless Okubo is ignorant or lying:
[/quote]
You keep ignoring the possibility that the birth was recorded as occuring at home. He could have been born anywhere and his mother could have written in their home address on the form. The short form only proves that somebody attested to the fact that he was born in Hawaii, the long-form will tell us who, and from there we can decide on the likelihood of his mother lying.
Also, in reading the various quotes of Okubo’s that have been published, I do get the impression that she is ignorant on this subject.
We discussed this earlier and I have not seen anywhere else that says the law is retroactive.
Furthermore, the last line of your article makes an interesting comment.
Any legal challenge would have to argue that Congress canâ??t make someone retroactively a citizen at birth
That is a question worthy of discussion on its own.
Obama strikes me as the sort of person who would block those kind of things because A) He can and B) he doesn’t think it is relevent or anyone elses business.
Possibly there is something to hide in there, possibly not, personally I doubt there is anything contained in anyone’s school records that makes a difference to their ability to run a country (unless he never graduated high school or something like that)
Except maybe a notation of being a citizen of Indonesia, or birthplace being listed, as it might be.
Now those things, I could see him going to the trouble of getting sealed. By your own account, you can’t think of anything else. (No one has brought up bad grades as a possibility: it’s perhaps conceivable, but doesn’t explain the sealed passport records, and is weakened by his having finished up his education either summa or magnum cum laude, which obviously everyone would consider more important than kindergarten grades.)
Your “just because he can” argument is, once again, the random firing of neurons argument. If anyone wants to believe that he just randomly thought, though it had no relevance to his Presidential run, that on running for President now it was time to seal records having absolutely nothing to do with his electability just because he had thought of it and he could – not because of content that needed hiding, oh surely not that – that is their prerogative for sure.
Why do you have such a problem concluding that the most reasonable and likely explanation for a person, on deciding to run for President, going to great lengths to hide a wide array of records that normally would not be sealed – actually it’s just flat unknown for a Presidential candidate to seal them – is that it is because they contain within them a truth that he himself believed would interfere with or eliminate his chance to become President?
How do you avoid feeling like a fool as you repeatedly argue that the best explanation is that he did all this for just no particular reason other than “because he could” ?
[quote]valiance. wrote:
In light of the new evidence I can’t see how it’s at all possible Obama was foreign born. One can still take issue with his secrecy regarding his college and other records, but it hardly seems like a big deal without the citizenship controversy behind it.
so I’m back to thinking the whole birther controversy is bugfuck nuts (and here you guys almost had me convinced). [/quote]
"La la la, la la la! I have my fingers in my ears and I can’t hear anything! YAY!!! 
"
Apparently, the standards of the state of Hawaii do not meet with Bill Roberts’ approval.
That is probably an important political crisis.
You goofballs go ahead and work yourselves up with your fringe conspiracy movement, and Democrats will continue getting legislation passed, like the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, increase in the minimum wage, Employee Free Choice Act, and other tangible, election-winning legislation.
Please, nobody tell Bill Roberts that 911 was an inside job. He already has his hands full.
Still can’t come up with an explanation for all the hiding that makes sense, can you?
Yup, just chant that persons saying something you don’t want to hear are a “conspiracy theorists” and “goofballs” and that solves it for you… no need to worry about the bad man saying bad things anymore!
Surely no need to come up with anything cogent yourself. Which is good, because you’ve proven you can’t.
I’m not going to go back and forth with you further. You’ve had more than enough chance to present a reason that makes sense, not involving a judgment by Obama that information in his records would have damaged or eliminated his chance to become President, to explain why, on deciding to run for President, he had everything from kindergarten and college records to passport records sealed, as well as his long form birth certificate if one even exists (some of his defenders are now saying it doesn’t exist anyway.)
You can’t come up with any other explanation that makes sense, or show that that explanation does not make sense. All you can do is call anyone who points out what you don’t want to hear a “conspiracy theorist.”
No point in going back and forth with that, is there now. There is not.
(Previous post hasn’t appeared so can’t just edit)
On your claim regarding standards of the State of Hawaii: That is a different point worth briefly addressing.
You are confusing data on paper with facts. The two are not always the same.
For example, my Florida driver’s license has my address on it. It happens to be the correct address.
In ordinary circumstances, it’s accepted as satisfactory evidence of what my address is. But if the matter were of some key importance, a person might well ask – and would ask – “Well, how did the State of Florida establish his address before putting it on the license?”
Answer: they asked me to sign an affidavit. Nothing more. No verification on their part of any kind.
If I had had some reason to lie – to obtain something for myself or for a family member – it would have gone right through.
So in a key matter, others would be entirely reasonable to want corroborating evidence.
And if, as soon as the matter of my address would have become of some great importance if it were not what I had said and this were found out, I went and at great expense had all my other records related to address sealed, unless they were mindless drones dedicated to believing in me no matter what, they’d reasonably demand to know why I had done this. Why had I sealed all evidence, besides something requiring nothing but an affidavit on my part, of my address?
Believe me, if the State of Florida were concerned for some legal reason regarding whether that really was my address, say if I’d be guilty of a fraud if I in fact hadn’t lived there at the time of applying for the license, they wouldn’t take the affidavit-based license alone as proof. It would be stupid to do so. Regardless that for ordinary purposes, it would be. And if I tried arguing that had all other evidence on address sealed by court order “just because I could,” they wouldn’t buy that that was all there was to it. No intelligent person would.
No, people go to great expense to hide things that ordinarily people wouldn’t even think about, such as kindergarten records, college records, passport records, and long-form (but not short form) birth certificate only if there is something in there that they think needs hiding. Not from neurons having a random spasm and it just occurring to them, “Hey, I could go hide these things, so let’s spend a ton on legal fees and get court orders for them to be sealed. Nothing in there that needs hiding, but it occurred to me I could do it and that’s enough for me.” That’s just stupid. It really is.
I’m sure you don’t follow that: it’s written for the sake of others, so don’t worry about it. Sleep tight: Obama had all these records sealed just because the thought entered his head and he “could do it.” Keep telling yourself that, and sweet dreams.
[quote]K2000 wrote:
<<< You goofballs go ahead and work yourselves up with your fringe conspiracy movement, and Democrats will continue getting legislation passed, like the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, increase in the minimum wage, Employee Free Choice Act, and other tangible, election-winning legislation. >>>[/quote]
You really are lost. The Lily Ledbetter thing was a gift to lawyers disguised as common sense justice to fool simpletons like you. Raising the minimum wage is another populist bone thrown to misguided class warriors, but will kill jobs and even McGovern is dead set against that abominable card check.
If this is the legislation that actually wins elections this nation is not long for this world.
Obama didn’t even sign into law the minimum wage hike. This was started a few years ago under Bush and has been happening in increments. This thread is obviously way over your head.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Still can’t come up with an explanation for all the hiding that makes sense, can you?[/quote]
You’re starting with a final thesis (Obama doesn’t deserve to be president) and searching around for rationale that supports your conclusion. That’s hardly scientific thinking, Bill.
So, Obama did something you don’t agree with (sealed his records) for reasons that you don’t understand. Therefore, this must be evidence of something bad/wrong/illegal.
Here’s a pretty good explanation, Bill… Maybe the president doesn’t want his kindergarten teacher to be harrassed by a bunch of desperate conspiracy theory nuts? That’s probably the most logical explanation, taking everything into account that’s been said, and the actual hard evidence that we have. Since your premise has been bandied about (on the outer fringe) since the primary season, Obama is justified to assume that the loon frenzy would only increase, once he became president. He’s probably trying to protect some people in his distant past from being bothered by irrational folks like you.
[quote]tedro wrote:
Obama didn’t even sign into law the minimum wage hike. This was started a few years ago under Bush and has been happening in increments. This thread is obviously way over your head.[/quote]
I didn’t say Obama signed it into law. Go back and read what I actually wrote, maybe take a few deep breaths, and try to concentrate.
Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said the things you claim below, nor reasoned in the manner you state.
Believe your theory for his reasons for deciding to have his kindergarten, college, passport, long-form birth certificate, and mabny other records sealed for the reason you state below if you like. Each can decide for himself if your explanation is the product of rationality, or derangement.
Bye now, even if you do put words in my mouth again that I never said, and claim lines of reasoning that I never employed or stated. You may be so desperate that you just can’t help yourself But kindly be decent enough to not do so again. Thanks.
[quote]K2000 wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Still can’t come up with an explanation for all the hiding that makes sense, can you?
You’re starting with a final thesis (Obama doesn’t deserve to be president) and searching around for rationale that supports your conclusion. That’s hardly scientific thinking, Bill.
So, Obama did something you don’t agree with (sealed his records) for reasons that you don’t understand. Therefore, this must be evidence of something bad/wrong/illegal.
Here’s a pretty good explanation, Bill… Maybe the president doesn’t want his kindergarten teacher to be harrassed by a bunch of desperate conspiracy theory nuts? That’s probably the most logical explanation, taking everything into account that’s been said, and the actual hard evidence that we have. Since your premise has been bandied about (on the outer fringe) since the primary season, Obama is justified to assume that the loon frenzy would only increase, once he became president. He’s probably trying to protect some people in his distant past from being bothered by irrational folks like you.[/quote]
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Bye now, even if you do put words in my mouth again that I never said, and claim lines of reasoning that I never employed or stated.
[/quote]
I haven’t seen any lines of reasoning Bill, and that is the problem with your posts. All I’ve seen from you on this issue is irresponsible conjecture.
Good day.
[quote]K2000 wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Bye now, even if you do put words in my mouth again that I never said, and claim lines of reasoning that I never employed or stated.
I haven’t seen any lines of reasoning Bill, and that is the problem with your posts. All I’ve seen from you on this issue is irresponsible conjecture.
Good day.
[/quote]
What is it with you pal? The whole point is he’s not concluding anything. The only thing he’s said about 50 times is that it’s common knowledge that Barack Obama went to considerable lengths to render key documentation from his past inaccessible to the public. Either he did this in a drunken blackout, or because he was bored or, being a rather calculated and intelligent fella he did it because somewhere in those documents is SOMETHING he doesn’t want anybody to see. A nominally precocious 10 year old would nod their head in unavoidable agreement, but not you.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
What is it with you pal? The whole point is he’s not concluding anything. The only thing he’s said about 50 times is that it’s common knowledge that Barack Obama went to considerable lengths to render key documentation from his past inaccessible to the public. [/quote]
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The only key documentation is his birth certificate, which has been supplied. His kindergarten records are not “key documentation” and neither is his passport or college records, and whatever else is on your list.
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I already gave you a pretty good explanation - Obama doesn’t want people from his past being hassled by kooks.
Obama’s birth certificate is a matter of public record. It’s good enough for the State of Hawaii, but apparently their criteria isn’t good enough for you or Bill Roberts. I’m sorry but that is pretty irrational. Obama has a birth certificate showing citizenship, which should be the end of the story, but sadly it’s not, because “what if his parents lied? How do we know that was actually his address?” No matter what hard evidence you have on hand, it only brings up additional ridiculous conjecture. Which brings up:
- Supplying documents will only fuel additional fire from the kooks, and make more people aware of it. It’s not about solving a mystery, it’s about raising doubts and creating as big of a conspiracy story as possible. If the president talks about it, it’s going to get onto the evening news, and even more idiots will take it seriously. That’s the hope that fuels this fringe movement.