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All I’m gonna say is I think Bush’s an idiot, and he needs to figure out our domestic policies (other than the ridiculous tax cut) before telling other countries what to do, etc. BTW I don’t blame the troops for the war; I wish they can all come home safely. After all, this is not their war. This is Mr. Bush’s war.

The key domestic economic policies have not received the proper spotlight from the media due to the war, and I honestly think that one of the main objectives of the war was to wag the dog (and to kick Saddam’s butt)

Diesel23:
The issue in Oakland is that the police may have used EXCESSIVE force in breaking up a demonstration. If an idiot threw something at the cops, that is stupid and it sucks, however the cops were in full riot gear and nobody was injured to my knowledge. The police then opened fire with wooden dowels (not beanbags, or maybe it was both) and not only shot protestors but also unioun dockworkers. Since the police have a documented history of infiltrating protests, I would not be surprised to hear that an infiltrator instigated the whole thing. My other comment on that is that when President Bush announced we were going to war even if 100% of the citizens were against it, that makes people feel like they need to do something radical in order to get people’s attention. Again, I do not condone throwing things at the police. But this administration’s arrogance regarding the war made a lot of people feel desperate.

Secondly, you said “True Americans… will speak their mind publicly, but NEVER, EVER, EVER try to purposefully hurt their fellow americans AND wish them harm.” I would just remind you that the police and other authorities DO sometimes attack citizens and even kill them without just cause, the obvious example being the shootings during peaceful demonstration at Kent State. Sorry if that is dated but if I make a laundry-list of recent events that will just earn me more “anti-American” insults. Maybe you will accept Amadou Diallo or Abner Louima as an example instead.

Everything is not so black and white as you would like to portray it. The conflict in Iraq is not over, and it remains to be seen whether all the death and destruction was ultimately worth it. Time will tell. Right now there are still no weapons of mass destruction found, and there are serious problems with the recontruction effort. There is still much left to be settled and accounted for.

Here is a really good essay about how “Patriotism” can quickly turn into Fascism. There’s some nice black humor here, but it makes some serious points too:

The Other “F” Word
“Chosen by the Grace of God”?
by BEN TRIPP

You could fill your lederhosen with razor blades and ride a bicycle down some steps. You could administer yourself a boiling-hot clyster of Drano and minced cactus. You could irritate a pride of lions whilst bedecked in a ham waistcoat. But why take the easy way out? It’s better to stand and fight. I refer to the deeply Sisyphean task of opposing the neofascist regime which has taken over the United States. There, I did it. I used the word ‘fascist’, which places me in that camp, even if the word was prefixed with the modifier ‘neo’ as in ‘o neo f the worst ideas ever’.

It’s been a long time coming, and not just because of Bob Dole’s Viagra (humorous joke, get it? Long time never mind). For all its strenuous efforts, I could never give the Bush administration that much credit before. Fascism is such a heavy term, so loaded with images of greasy newsreel dictators in Sam Browne belts and tall boots. Too many commentators leapt on the ‘Orwellian’ and ‘fascist’ bandwagons too quickly into Bush’s sic volo, sic jubeo term of office. After all, wasn’t the WWI Sedition Act far worse than Ashcroft’s Junior Inquisition? How about the McCarthy Era, when a ventriloquist’s dummy nearly destroyed our nation’s freedoms, just to deny Dalton Trumbo the screenwriting credit for ‘Roman Holiday’? For a long time I couldn’t quite slap the ‘F’ word, as fascism is coyly known among lefties, on Bush and his minions. No matter how naughty the Man Who Would be President might be, for my tastes he never hit that perfect Kafka note-- until recently. Him and his people weren’t really fascists. Just execrable excrudescent assholes. But 2003 has changed all that.

These people are fascists, and they make Mussolini look like a mezzafinook. There is no component of American liberty of which they are unwilling to relieve us, and no aspect of American life upon which they are unwilling to relieve themselves. Where to begin? First, we must define ‘fascism’. It is a term like ‘love’, about which it can be said that everybody knows exactly what it means, and nobody knows what they’re talking about. Luckily I know everything and so can clear the matter up, particularly if I consult Mussolini’s own diary, which I picked up on Ebay for a song (the song was ‘That’s Amore’ as sung by Dean Martin). For those not fluent in Italian, I will paraphrase the definition before me in Il Duce’s crabbed hand:

Fascism is an extreme right-wing ideology which embraces nationalism as the transcendent value of society. The rise of Fascism relies upon the manipulation of populist sentiment in times of national crisis. Based on fundamentalist revolutionary ideas, Fascism defines itself through intense xenophobia, militarism, and supremacist ideals. Although secular in nature, Fascism’s emphasis on mythic beliefs such as divine mandates, racial imperatives, and violent struggle places highly concentrated power in the hands of a self-selected elite from whom all authority flows to lesser elites, such as law enforcement, intellectuals, and the media. What a rush. Must buy Clara a new hat.

I couldn’t have said it better myself. If we accept this general definition of fascism, we can be forgiven for rushing to the bedroom and throwing some clean underwear into a portmanteau ere catching the next train to Toronto. But we must stand our ground, however eroded it may be. Our freedoms have been undermined at home. Our nation has engaged in an outrageous military adventure overseas, the tissue-thin justification for which has disappeared completely, leaving America in the awkward position yclept ‘hostile invader’ by entities such as the United Nations (you remember them, those nice colored folks over on 39th Street?) Meanwhile our states have mostly gone bankrupt, the first tax cut during wartime since the 1840’s -more wealth for the wealthy- is in the works while corporate feudalism runs rampant, our ability to respond to authentic terrorist threats has been hobbled, the voting system has been co-opted by digital pirates in the Republican party, the electoral system in general is hostage to big money, our healthcare system is in meltdown, our national budget is so far in the red we have to import ink from China just to keep up; the prison population is exploding while our schools implode, civil rights are verklempt and vivisepulturated, our businesses are folding by entire sectors while the military-industrial complex thrives, and our environment is sinking into crisis with the North Pole melted and environmental regulation evaporating like so much ozone. Meanwhile, Jesus Christ is sleeping in the Lincoln Bedroom.

But because the American media has ceased to make its own news, relying instead on a kind of government-hosted charabanc tour for journalists, nobody is questioning this lunatic national retrenchment in a public forum- instead, we demonize Arabs and teenagers and black people and homosexuals and poor folks and drug users and anyone, God bless them, who has ever performed fellatio. And that’s only the tip of the scheisseberg. These are all harbingers and symptoms and outcomes of fascism. But still, fascism is such an extreme notion. Once could argue that these many fresh hells are the result of simple criminal mismanagement, and for some time I have been so inclined (to argue thus, not to criminally mismanage. For the latter I’d need an MBA.)

What specific enormity cemented the notion of Bush and his cabal as ‘fascists’ in my mind? If I could sit out all of the above, surely nothing could compel me to apply the scarlet ‘F’ to these vendible quantum-larrikins and their erstwhile leader, the Ivy-League demagogue bogtrotter George W. Bush. I can tell you the very moment, and if you missed it, it’s worth finding a dog-eared copy of the video and viewing it entire, although I caution you to keep a bucket handy- these images are too graphic for many American stomachs.

An aircraft carrier in the Pacific, about an hour from San Diego, California. You could row that far. A couple of jets on deck as props, lots of giddy sailors. Here comes an airplane! It lands in the accustomed manner. Out springs the Boy Prince, the Dauphin of D.C., the VIP of the GOP, George W. Bush in full military flight suit, with his ejector harness giving him the worst moose knuckle in presidential history. A bit of video for the election commercials just in case the Democrats don’t all curl up and die on their own, what’s the harm in that? I wish it was that simple. But what we really saw in that moment was a coup d’etat. The president isn’t supposed to wear a uniform. He’s a civilian. Rough Rider Teddy Roosevelt strapped on a pistol now and then and we’ve had generals who made president before. That Kennedy fellow was a war hero, too, and Bush Senior, the one who got elected, did his bit in the Pacific while Grampy Prescott was supporting the Nazis in Europe. But when they were president none of these men put on military uniforms. They understood that there are three sacred lines with regard to American democracy that can never be crossed: the line between privilege and power, the line between Church and State, and the line between civilian and military leadership. Cross any of them, and you’re at fascism’s doorstep. Cross two, you’re on the threshold with your hand on the doorknob.

George W. Bush, son of unimaginable privilege, crossed the first line when he was selected to be president by the Supreme Court and accepted the job. He crossed the second line when he revealed his divine imperative, such as when (after the disaster of 9/11) he spoke of being “chosen by the grace of God to lead at that moment.” (attributed by Tim Goeglein, deputy director of White House public liaison and a barrel of laughs at any party.) When George climbed out of that airplane in his shiny new war suit, he didn’t just carry his own cute little self across the deck: son of privilege, chosen of God, and wearing a military uniform, he passed through the doorway from mere wickedness to fascism. Our struggle in the time ahead is to resist the urge to follow him.

http://www.counterpunch.org/tripp05082003.html

 Lumpy you're insane.

 You mean to say you want us to not follow our president - well, isnt tha just convenient for both liberals and democrats. As long as we dont follow a republican president the only other liable option is to follow a democrat president. Someone's swimming in a little too much naivet?.

 Also:

‘Secondly, you said “True Americans… will speak their mind publicly, but NEVER, EVER, EVER try to purposefully hurt their fellow americans AND wish them harm.”
I would just remind you that the police and other authorities DO sometimes attack citizens and even kill them without just cause’

  Let me say just this: When you're a police officer you literally put your life on the line. The adrenaline is flowing and you might take violent and agressive comments during a demonstration as a threat to your life, or that of your fellow officers. They do their job, a damn good one at that, but they might make a misjudgement about the severity of the situation. 

   Please DO NOT even try to compare that to a fuckin liberal who's pissed at Bush's supposed arrogance about the war and decides to hurt our officers with iron bolts and concrete, instigates riots during demosntrations, wishes harm to our troops - heck they hope our soldiers will all die. Some of those soldiers are my friends, close ones at that. They do a damn god job, and are just like me and you. They work out, they love hanging out, watching movies, getting drunk, banging chicks, they work hard, they hope to someday buy their own house, they have kids. They are Marines, the front lines. These people are blatantly hoping my buddies will die. Thats some fuckin patriotism right there. If I get my way, soon theyll be referring to me as well. And you can trust me when I say somebody will go home with something broken if they ever wish my death once Im in, because I know I will have a problem with that.

diesel,

I’d like to point out to you that we are under no obligation to FOLLOW the president. It’s the duty of the president to uphold our Consitutions. He’s ANSWERABLE to the people who elected him. We’re not answerable to him. If the president does something wrong, then we the people have the right to say that he’s wrong.

However, I’d like to point out that I do not believe that the protesters in Oakland were correct in interfering with the military shipment to our troops. As I said before in some other old thread, the troops were deployed whether or not they agree w/ the war (After all, I dont’ recall any commander asking their men, “Do you agree w/ the war? We’re thinking about deploying you, but in case you disagree, we may not sen dyou there”) They’re FIGHTING for the country. They’re SERVING us. So it’s very uncool to starve/strip them of their rations, weapons, etc. – the very things necessary for them to survive and do their jobs – to serve the nation.

Even though I’m not particularly for this war nor pro-Bush, I do want our troops to return home safely.

Diesel
Sorry you didn’t understand that article.

Try reading it again, and pretend Dennis Miller is saying it. Then it’ll be funny!

Indeed Bush is causing much distress with his chic new officer look.
Where I live, Japan, I get asked “why did Americans elect someone who could not even name the leaders of ctrys important to US interests?” (not to mention who can’t pronounce “nuclear”)

Unfortunately I can respond that he wasn’t elected, he was awarded office.

Media coverage is of course different than what it is in the US, which obviously affects how we view any issue. Here I can not only watch ABC & CNN, but also get feeds from Germany, Spain, France, and England - which is quite interesting, and frankly when I watch mainstream US media now I feel like its a slicker version of those old propaganda films shown in theaters in the 40’s.

Basically this direction in US foreign policy and militarization of the president’s image has caused many on these shores to lose respect for US leadership, but not for Americans-as most are careful to point out. They are intelligent enough to distinguish between politicians and the actual population.

For now “American coffee” is not called “fascist coffee” in Japan, and I hope that it will not be in the future.

What are some views of others who live not only in the US, but in other ctrys, of Baby Bush’s fashion statement?

Seems like alot of people read a post by someone with a different viewpoint than their own and out come the knives and they start whittling on the guys words. One side says if you dont support the war your unpatriotic, and unamerican, the other side says if you support the war your a nationalist and a colonialist.

Just because someone has a slightly different opinion than you doesnt make them a representive of the extreme right or the extreme left.

I know people are gonna say, well so-and-so said this or that and your an idiot. I dont care what so-and-so said, and and dont care if you think I am an idiot. The important thing is that so-and-so is granted the RIGHT to say anything he or she wants by our constitution, just like its your RIGHT to say that you think that I’m an idiot.

with that said, heres my 2 cents.

I think that we should question our government, all the time, the reason that I say this is because, we, the citizens are ultimately responsible for the actions of our government. Its just not a good idea to blindly follow our countries leaders. If you think that every elected official is a paragon of virtue then your pretty naive. These people have personal and moral short comings just like everyone else. In my opinion politicians in general probably have alot more vices than normal people, just because they have alot more temptaion with fewer repercussions. Also I think that, in general the kind of people that seek high politcal offices are probably some of the more ruthless and morally ambigous people around. You have to ask yourself, did they run for office to lead the people to a better tomorrow, or did they want the affluence, power and privilege that high government offices afford. Politicians are supposed to servants of the people, not the other way around.
They are ELECTED (supposed to be anyway) not crowned.
Sometimes when I read some of these politcal posts, I have to wonder if people tend to confuse “citizen” with “subject” and “patriot” with “warmonger”.

again, this all just my opinion.

one last thing, its your duty as a citizen to constantly ask yourself if the leaders of your country are doing a good job, and to replace them if they are not.

Thats not unAmerican, that is exactly what Thomas Jefferson and crew did 2 centuries ago.

Brillian Dash. Thank you for summing it up so well.

Very good post Dash, I agree completely.
Where would we be if we didn’t employ critical thinking to our training?
Imagine if every single person did the same in regard to the world around us.

I agree, Dash is right. (Mrs. Dash must be happy.)

I am glad everyone is watching the government so closely. It makes it harder for them to get away with anything they shouldn’t. People can make all the statements they wish, but if I disagree with them I will argue against it. One of the problems I have had recently is that it might sound like I am defending the oil industry, when I am totally disgusted with the oil industry.

I believe we have discussed this war to death, but (as I have stated before) we must keep our eyes on what we do in Iraq and Afghanistan. We made a promise to the people of these countries and we have to keep it, unlike the first gulf war.

It should also be pointed out that not only are politicians supposed to be responsible to the people, but the people are correspondingly responsible for the politicians and their actions. It is the duty of people to check up on what the politicians claim. I always hate hearing groups claim that they were lied to or “duped”. Democracy entails a personal responsibility for the actions of the elected government, whether you voted for it or not; there is always stronger advocacy if you are against a politician.

“I’m all for America, f**k the government.” – Eminem