[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
It seems that you truly have become aclimitised to living in Britain because you know how to whinge and moan but you don’t actually plan to do anything about it ;-)[/quote]
Oh, the action plan is already in motion.
; )
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
You’re thinking too black and white. For someone who jibes Sifu about differences too subtle for him, you are missing the point. Of course people in small groups are shot dead–they’re small fucking groups. On the other hand, there are something like 190 MILLION guns in private citizens hands–if even 10 percent of those got mad enough at an Unconstitutional action of the US, they COULD do something about it. What’s our army? Like 1.4 million between all branches?
Second point–which you either do not recognize or are glossing over–is that it IS NOT about pure winning. Regardless of the outcome, a gov’t does not want to commit large amounts of resources over an extended time period to having to physically control its people through confrontation. It’s a sort of convenience thing–you might not win, but you can make it so damn uncomfortable and hassle so much that they just don’t want to deal with it.
But he point is that it is always going to be small groups. The anarchist idea that the majority of the US is just waiting to burst out and throw off the oppressive government is a pipe dream.
I really think that keeping guns in order to threaten your government is a poor excuse. Money, publicity and votes are the way to control a government not threats of violence.
[/quote]
Firstly, I am not an anarchist. Secondly, it doesn’t have to be always in small groups. The majority of the US is NOT waiting to overthrow an oppressive gov’t, because as a whole the population of the US has decided that it is happy with the current gov’t standings, myself included, if the alternative means rebellion. That’s precisely the point. IF (and I hope we don’t) we as a country get to the point where we are widely unhappy, then we CAN do something because of the incredible amount of guns. I don’t want rebellion, I am not a militia man, and we are not at a point where it would be right in any case.
It’s not about threatening. I don’t know how many different ways I can say it.
I agree that the more effective method within the system is lobbying and money, and votes. However, it is not an “excuse” as you put it. It is a God-given right, and was so recognized at the founding of our country—
There are other, later, references to the same right, but I will leave those for you to find and read. It makes no difference whether it is useful or not, it is our right whether anybody understands why or not, or whether anybody even thinks it’s possible or a “pipe dream”.
It is, as you put it, our government. The minute it becomes anything but the people’s government (some isolated crazies would already say that it has, I disagree), we have every right to threaten it. The government was designed to work for us, not against us. Be our servant, not make us its servant.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Aragorn wrote:
How the hell are you supposed to be able to shoot someone in self defense if you have no gun?? If you take theirs and shoot them it’s not self defense anymore, obviously that’s out.
Actually no it is not out. If you are attacking me with deadly intent, and I grab your gun in the struggle and shoot you then I have legally used a gun in self defence. If however I chase after you and shoot you in the back then I am comitting murder or manslaughter (depending on my intent.)[/quote]
I agree.
[quote]In the same way, if I carry a metal bar because I am walking through a ‘dangerous’ area and I am scared of being mugged then it is classed as carrying a dangerous weapon and I can be prosecuted. If however I were to be attacked and stab someone with the point of my umbrella then I have used my resources to defend myself.
The point is that under British Law people should not be walking around with any form of weapon. The theory being that this leads to a less violent attitude. In the US the general ideas go to the other extreme which is that if everyone has the opportunity to carry deadly weapons then everyone will be too scared to start anything.[/quote]
However, it is probably more likely you will be beaten submissive/killed if you have to rely on your umbrella point than if you were allowed to have a weapon to defend yourself. An umbrella is nowhere near a threatening weapon. Nobody I know would ever be deterred by that. I certainly would not.
Why not allow the people to use additional resources for defense? That makes more sense than hoping they can chase them off with an umbrella.
Besides, if as you and doc_man (i think?) point out that there weren’t that many gun owners anyways, and importantly a lack of “gun culture”, then the argument that orion put forward stands and it was a worthless policy to pursue gun control at best and at worst it was harmful.
The problem with disarming a populace is that you a) violate a basic human right as I pointed out in my post with the quote above and as the US founding fathers would most likely point out, and b) you make it very easy for the innocent to be preyed upon by criminals etc who don’t really care about living within the system anyways.
Not true, this is a strawman. Hobbes and Locke were both mostly right about anarchy, though from different angles. That’s a bad argument to make, and I think you know it.
You people who worry about being watched by the government are forgetting how incredible incompetent the government is at actually noticing you do anything. My problem with the surveillance is that it doesn’t work, does not solve crimes, doesn’t prevent crimes, when the cops do the crimes it magically disappears, too, although lucky that is pretty rare (but usually involves them killing an innocent citizen for no reason).
The UK is totally nuts.
and V for Vendetta is not about the future of England, it is about the present.
Here is a good example of what is wrong with Britain. In Britain the government is a bully. This article is about one of Britains more infamous incidents of government bullying. Also if you consider the way this article is worded you can get some idea of the fucked up mentality of the British. Only in the twisted mind of the British could someone “lay in wait” inside their own home in order to ambush someone who has no right nor legitimate reason to be there.
Vigilante farmer Tony Martin has said he has no regrets about shooting and killing a teenager who broke into his farmhouse 10 years ago today.
The 64-year-old insisted he was right to kill petty crook Fred Barras, 16, and seriously injure his accomplice Brendan Fearon, 31, after they broke into his home.
‘Regrets? I’ve got no more regrets than people who break into people’s houses,’ the eccentric vigilante said last night.
‘I was on the stairs, they were shining a torch on me, I pulled the trigger and the rest is history.’
Mr Martin has not set foot inside his home since that dramatic night on August 20, 1999.
Ivy riots up the walls of Bleak House in Emneth Hungate, Norfolk and its windows remain barred by steel shutters.
Mr Martin slept in his car after being freed on appeal in 2003, when his conviction was reduced to manslaughter. He won’t say where he stays now, refusing to let even the police know his whereabouts.
‘When I had my problem, I was in the papers every day. Things haven’t changed.’ He added: 'I don’t hold it against the police. I just don’t respect them and nor does anyone else.
'They haven’t done anything at all. That’s why we had those problems 10 years ago. We had no law and order and if I’m responsible for shooting those people they’re equally culpable.
‘I’ll tell you how theft works,’ he said, surveying the jungle which has all but swallowed the house. 'People feel like they’ve been violated, they don’t want to talk about it.
‘I lost my privacy when the police came down here, when they brought that putrescence Fearon back here into my house.’
Career burglar Mr Fearon could remember little of the shooting when police took him back to the scene as they pieced together the moments leading up to Mr Barras’ death.
Bleak House - the property Mr Martin was left by an uncle 30 years or so earlier - was semi derelict.
But while police said afterwards that lessons had been learned and promised better co-operation between neighbouring forces, when it came to policing the Fens, a cross border intelligence unit was scrapped after just 18 months.
Mr Martin insists little has changed.
In the last few weeks alone he has been given a fixed penalty fine for not wearing a seatbelt and questioned over a sickle in his car.
'Going back to the police, I’m not against them.
‘They keep playing this game where they say if you’ve got a problem, give us a ring,’ he said.
‘When you do ring, they come down and tell you why they can’t do anything. What we need is a proper parliament that would untie their hands.’
Having been repeatedly raided before the shootings, Mr Martin was lurking in wait for Mr Barras and Mr Fearon with a pump-action shotgun.
‘I don’t have any regrets at all, I don’t see why I should,’ he said. 'It was something that was forced upon me and as it turns out it would appear it wasn’t a bad idea to happen.
‘Everyone knew what was going on and actually it was a bit like a boil, it brought it to a head. But the interesting thing is nothing has been done in the last 10 years.’
As he prepares to turn 65, Mr Martin appears to have given up on farming. Rusting equipment lies around the yards and sheds, while some of his fields have been turned over to set-aside.
Asked if he has equipped himself with another gun - like the pump-action Remington he acquired in a nearby pub prior to shooting Mr Barras - he remains evasive.
‘I do have plenty of powder,’ he smiles.
Mr Martin’s conviction for murder, in April 2000, caused a national outcry. It was reduced to manslaughter and the sentence cut to five years on appeal.
His release was delayed until the summer of 2003 because he refused to express any remorse over the death of Mr Barras.
Timeline
August 20, 1999 - Tony Martin fires a shotgun at two burglars who break into his remote farm house, killing 16-year-old Fred Barras and wounding his accomplice Brendan Fearon.
August 21, 1999 - Police find Mr Barras’ body in the undergrowth close to Mr Martin’s home.
August 23, 1999 - Mr Martin is charged with the murder of Mr Barras and wounding Mr Fearon with intent to cause grievous bodily harm.
August 24, 1999 - Mr Martin is remanded in custody at King’s Lynn Magistrates Court. Neighbours rally round to harvest his corn.
September 7, 1999 - Judge David Mellor rules that Mr Martin should be freed on conditional bail at a private hearing at Norwich Crown Court. He moves to a secret safe house because police fear for his safety.
January 10, 2000 - Mr Fearon and Darren Bark, 33, both from Newark, Nottinghamshire, admit to conspiring to burgle Bleak House. Mr Fearon is jailed for 3 years and Mr Bark is sentenced to 30 months.
April 10, 2000 - At his trial at Norwich Crown Court, Mr Martin denies murdering Mr Barras, attempting to murder Mr Fearon, wounding Mr Fearon with intent to cause injury and possession of an illegal firearm with intent to endanger lives.
April 19, 2000 - Outcry erupts after Mr Martin is found guilty of murdering Mr Barras and sentenced to life. During the trial, it emerged the burglars had 114 convictions between them.
August 20, 2001 - At an appeal heard at London’s High Court, Mr Martin’s sentence is reduced to manslaughter and his sentence is cut to five years.
January 2003 - Mr Martin’s hopes of release are dashed by the Parole Board after he refuses to show remorse.
July 28, 2003 - Mr Martin is released from custody. He sells his story to the Daily Mirror for £100,000.
ARRAARGGGHHH!!
Posting it here because I cannot think of a greater testament to the crap wishy washy bullshit that my country sucks down.
[quote]GimpFace wrote:
ARRAARGGGHHH!!
Posting it here because I cannot think of a greater testament to the crap wishy washy bullshit that my country sucks down.
[/quote]
That used to be the cheapest flight between Detroit and England. My enitre family flew on that airplane several times, with the last time being less than two weeks before it was blown up. Words can’t express just how mad that bullshit makes me. The pandering of the government is absolutely outrageous.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Words can’t express just how mad that bullshit makes me.[/quote]
Agreed.
And before anyone accuses me of being one of those Limey Bastards ™ that moans with no action: I have 2 years left on my mortgage, after that I am selling up and taking my tax money elsewhere.
And I plan on wiping my arse on a few Congestion Charge notices before I go.
God. Now I’m so mad I can’t see. Between the farmer’s plight and the release of the bomber, I’m livid. I’m going to go eat something and get away from this forum while I still can.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I am still waiting for Obama to get rid of the PATRIOT Act… and it’s not happening. I am not happy about that.[/quote]
Why should he?
Would it be in his own best interest to do so?
Did he say he would?
I wouldn’t hold my breath, if I were you.
You remember those two lists I suggested that you make when Obama was inaugurated?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I was reading this article, BBC NEWS | UK | Police 'not using CCTV properly', about the CCTV cameras and how even though the limeys are 100 percent under Big Brother’s watch, they can’t solve the damn crimes anyway.
My question- how did Britain get to become this constantly surveilled police state that it is becoming? Doesn’t anyone there care that they seem to be quickly sliding into “V for Vendetta” land?[/quote]
They might as well be France.
why he is till alive is beyond my comprehension.
[quote]GimpFace wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Words can’t express just how mad that bullshit makes me.
Agreed.
And before anyone accuses me of being one of those Limey Bastards ™ that moans with no action: I have 2 years left on my mortgage, after that I am selling up and taking my tax money elsewhere.
And I plan on wiping my arse on a few Congestion Charge notices before I go. [/quote]
Another sign of how bad things have become in Britain is the fact that the most massive immigration in it’s history is coinciding with the most massive emigration in it’s history.
If you look at the people who are leaving the country it is the educated middle class who have job skills that will allow them to get work somewhere else. Their position in society is being taken over by immigrants. The ones who aren’t leaving are the ones who have been rendered incapable of fending for themselves by the so called “benefits” system.
They are socially engineering the society so that all that will be left of the indiginous people is the yabo’s, football hooligans, alcoholics, addicts, thieves, violent psychotics and Vicky Pollards.
And they are all going to be living off of the dole. While the hard working immigrants and their children are going to absolutely resent having a sizable chunk of their hard earned money taken in taxes and given to dysfunctional scum who don’t contribute anything to society.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Sifu wrote:
GimpFace wrote:
ARRAARGGGHHH!!
Posting it here because I cannot think of a greater testament to the crap wishy washy bullshit that my country sucks down.
That used to be the cheapest flight between Detroit and England. My enitre family flew on that airplane several times, with the last time being less than two weeks before it was blown up. Words can’t express just how mad that bullshit makes me. The pandering of the government is absolutely outrageous.
“Mr al-Megrahi did not show his victims any comfort or compassion. They were not allowed to return to the bosom of their families to see out their lives, let alone their dying days. No compassion was shown by him to them,” he said.
“But that alone is not a reason for us to deny compassion to him and his family in his final days.”
Oh, for crying out loud. You’ve got to be kidding me.[/quote]
He is serious. That is the mentality of the ruling class liberals. They are more interested in the well being of criminals than they are in the well being of innocent.
It is one of the ways they encourage people who have education and job skills to emigrate.
Fight the power
As I was reading this article I couldn’t help but think of Cockneyblue’s claim that “CCTV has been effective”. You can read the whole article if you follow the link.
CCTV helps solve just ONE crime per 1,000 as officers fail to use film as evidence
Just one crime is solved a year by every 1,000 CCTV cameras in Britain’s largest force area, it was claimed today.
A senior Scotland Yard officer warned police must do more to head off a crisis in public confidence over the use of surveillance cameras.
Detective Chief Inspector Mick Neville said officers should up their game when it comes to making captured images count against crooks.
He said there are more than a million CCTV cameras in London and the Government has spent £500 million on the crime-fighting equipment.
But he admitted just 1,000 crimes were solved in 2008 using CCTV images as officers fail to make the most of potentially vital evidence.
Writing in an internal report, Mr Neville said people are filmed many times every day and have high expectations when they become victims of crime.
But he suggested the reality is often disappointing as in some cases officers fail to bring criminals to justice even after they are caught on camera and identified.
Mr Neville said CCTV played a role in capturing just eight out of 269 suspected robbers across London in one month
ditto, I was thinking of posting that same article but couldn’t be bothered. I’d much rather see more cops on the beat than cameras. Years back, there was a small debate about the merits of putting the money into cops, or into cameras … they went with cameras.
Here is the latest on the condition of the Lockerbie bomber. It appears he may not be as close to death as the British government has been claiming. Imagine that.
Lockerbie bomber’s prognosis under ‘significant doubt’
The Lockerbie bomber could live far longer than predicted by Scottish ministers when they decided to release him, a cancer expert has warned.
Dr Richard Simpson said that medical reports show there is â??significant doubtâ?? that Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al Megrahi will die within the next three months.
The Labour MSP accused Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish justice minister, of failing to conduct sufficient checks before deciding to release the terminally-ill bomber last week.
Scottish Prison Service (SPS) guidelines suggest that inmates are only freed if they have less than three months to live.
However, Dr Simpson, who specialised in prostate disease research, said: â??It is clear to me from the medical reports and the opinion of the specialists that Megrahi could live for many more months.
â??Kenny MacAskill released him apparently on the advice of just one doctor whose status is not clear and who is not named.â??
Dr Simpson, a former member of the British Association of Urological Surgeons’ prostate cancer working group, said the minister should have sought a second opinion from a specialist in palliative care.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Here is the latest on the condition of the Lockerbie bomber. It appears he may not be as close to death as the British government has been claiming. Imagine that.
[/quote]