What is Freedom?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

well, face it folks - the definition of freedom is always going to be context and speaker’s position dependent. Freedom within socialism is one thing, in anarchy another, in a dictatorship another, in libertarianism something else.

We can argue endlessly about theoretical freedom in an abstract sense, but everyone defines it differently within their chosen ideology. That is why we have diffent ideologies, because we value and define things differently.

The average communist would have said that he had freedom with a repressive regime, albeit a freedom that was well beyond any concept of freedom to the capitalist in the West. It was not until the communist actually could travel to the West that he could understand Western freedom and vice versa. In addition the average communist’s concpet of freedom differed drastically from that of the higher members of the politburo.

Once you realize this contextual element - than you can compare the levels of freedom found within each context as related to specific positions within that context.

As El Duce was trying to state, there are natural limitations on all individuals that preclude complete freedom and then base don context there are additional restrictions - but the “freedom” of the individual will always depend on that person’s concept of free . . .

122

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I don’t see how except by coercive means competition would not correct irregularities in the market that restricted supply.

Unions only have the ability to restrict such freedom by use of coercion which is exactly why I see freedom as freedom from coercion. That is the only way our choices are not hindered or diminished.[/quote]

Unions do not inherently rely on coercion. Unions and monopolies can exist without it.[/quote]

Monopolies cannot arise without coercive means. Excessive profits ensure that monopolies will not arise so long as people are free to compete.

Unions are typically coercive because they rely on government to mandate policy to protect them.

123

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Monopolies cannot arise without coercive means. Excessive profits ensure that monopolies will not arise so long as people are free to compete.
[/quote]

They can arise, but they can’t sustain themselves.

124

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I don’t see how except by coercive means competition would not correct irregularities in the market that restricted supply.

Unions only have the ability to restrict such freedom by use of coercion which is exactly why I see freedom as freedom from coercion. That is the only way our choices are not hindered or diminished.[/quote]

Unions do not inherently rely on coercion. Unions and monopolies can exist without it.[/quote]

Monopolies cannot arise without coercive means. Excessive profits ensure that monopolies will not arise so long as people are free to compete.

Unions are typically coercive because they rely on government to mandate policy to protect them.[/quote]

So… answer my other post.

125

How can a union bar me from consumption without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

How does a union protest competition without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

If unions are not inherently coercive then they would have no power and no reason to exist except to siphon money from those they are lording over. Unions are nothing more than legitimized mobster cartels.

126

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
How can a union bar me from consumption without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

How does a union protest competition without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

If unions are not inherently coercive then they would have no power and no reason to exist except to siphon money from those they are lording over. Unions are nothing more than legitimized mobster cartels.[/quote]

You didn’t touch my other post.

Say all the skilled piano laborers voluntarily belong to a union because their working conditions are horrible. They go on strike. There are no pianos to buy. Are you less free because people chose not to build you a piano?

Lets say one guy invented the piano and only he knows how it works. He sells them to everyone but you because he doesn’t like you. Are you less free? What if he makes all the people he sells to agree not to let you use it? Is that coercion so you’d be less free, or is that a voluntary entering of an agreement by all parties, they have the right to do?

I find it more than odd that your definition of freedom varies based on these sorts of conditions.

I think that if you don’t have access to a piano, for whatever reason, you are in a way less free. The points we are addressing factor into whether that limit of freedom is fair or not.

127

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
How can a union bar me from consumption without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

How does a union protest competition without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

If unions are not inherently coercive then they would have no power and no reason to exist except to siphon money from those they are lording over. Unions are nothing more than legitimized mobster cartels.[/quote]

You didn’t touch my other post.

Say all the skilled piano laborers voluntarily belong to a union because their working conditions are horrible…[/quote]

You’re starting from an impossible premise. This argument falls apart as soon as we realize this could never happen except by force.

128

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
How can a union bar me from consumption without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

How does a union protest competition without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

If unions are not inherently coercive then they would have no power and no reason to exist except to siphon money from those they are lording over. Unions are nothing more than legitimized mobster cartels.[/quote]

Say all the skilled piano laborers voluntarily belong to a union because their working conditions are horrible…[/quote]

You’re starting from an impossible premise. This argument falls apart as soon as we realize this could never happen except by force.[/quote]

There were 2 examples in the above post, you only touched (not rebutted) one.

And let me repost my post I keep asking for an answer about:

"How about this:

Is it the right of a company to not spend money with a supplier who begins to deal with a competitor. Is that making the guy who owns the supplier less free? Is that coercion or is that a business doing what it wants with it’s own money, they shouldn’t HAVE to spend money with them? Is the competitor now less free?"

129

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
How can a union bar me from consumption without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

How does a union protest competition without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

If unions are not inherently coercive then they would have no power and no reason to exist except to siphon money from those they are lording over. Unions are nothing more than legitimized mobster cartels.[/quote]

Say all the skilled piano laborers voluntarily belong to a union because their working conditions are horrible…[/quote]

You’re starting from an impossible premise. This argument falls apart as soon as we realize this could never happen except by force.[/quote]

There were 2 examples in the above post, you only touched (not rebutted) one.

And let me repost my post I keep asking for an answer about:

"How about this:

Is it the right of a company to not spend money with a supplier who begins to deal with a competitor. Is that making the guy who owns the supplier less free? Is that coercion or is that a business doing what it wants with it’s own money, they shouldn’t HAVE to spend money with them? Is the competitor now less free?"[/quote]

You keep falling into the same trap.

Freedom is freedom from aggression – as orion put it, it is political freedom to not be forced with guns to do stuff I don’t want to do; it is not freedom from want.

130

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
How can a union bar me from consumption without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

How does a union protest competition without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

If unions are not inherently coercive then they would have no power and no reason to exist except to siphon money from those they are lording over. Unions are nothing more than legitimized mobster cartels.[/quote]

Say all the skilled piano laborers voluntarily belong to a union because their working conditions are horrible…[/quote]

You’re starting from an impossible premise. This argument falls apart as soon as we realize this could never happen except by force.[/quote]

There were 2 examples in the above post, you only touched (not rebutted) one.

And let me repost my post I keep asking for an answer about:

"How about this:

Is it the right of a company to not spend money with a supplier who begins to deal with a competitor. Is that making the guy who owns the supplier less free? Is that coercion or is that a business doing what it wants with it’s own money, they shouldn’t HAVE to spend money with them? Is the competitor now less free?"[/quote]

You keep falling into the same trap.

Freedom is freedom from aggression – as orion put it, it is political freedom to not be forced with guns to do stuff I don’t want to do; it is not freedom from want.[/quote]

Then just answer the questions. If I pay the piano maker to not sell you a piano, are you less free? It makes me happy to see you sans piano, it’s my right to use my possessions to my happiness. I’m also not forcing anyone into anything, the terms are all voluntary.

Is this “aggression” when all actions are voluntary?

131

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
How can a union bar me from consumption without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

How does a union protest competition without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

If unions are not inherently coercive then they would have no power and no reason to exist except to siphon money from those they are lording over. Unions are nothing more than legitimized mobster cartels.[/quote]

Say all the skilled piano laborers voluntarily belong to a union because their working conditions are horrible…[/quote]

You’re starting from an impossible premise. This argument falls apart as soon as we realize this could never happen except by force.[/quote]

There were 2 examples in the above post, you only touched (not rebutted) one.

And let me repost my post I keep asking for an answer about:

"How about this:

Is it the right of a company to not spend money with a supplier who begins to deal with a competitor. Is that making the guy who owns the supplier less free? Is that coercion or is that a business doing what it wants with it’s own money, they shouldn’t HAVE to spend money with them? Is the competitor now less free?"[/quote]

You keep falling into the same trap.

Freedom is freedom from aggression – as orion put it, it is political freedom to not be forced with guns to do stuff I don’t want to do; it is not freedom from want.[/quote]

Then just answer the questions. If I pay the piano maker to not sell you a piano, are you less free? It makes me happy to see you sans piano, it’s my right to use my possessions to my happiness. I’m also not forcing anyone into anything, the terms are all voluntary.

Is this “aggression” when all actions are voluntary? [/quote]

Your question is not rooted in reality.

In order for this to affect me in any real way you would have to force all piano makers to not sell to me. Good luck, because in reality I DO HAVE ebay, craigslist, etc.

132

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
How can a union bar me from consumption without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

How does a union protest competition without the use of coercion, violence, or protection from the government?

If unions are not inherently coercive then they would have no power and no reason to exist except to siphon money from those they are lording over. Unions are nothing more than legitimized mobster cartels.[/quote]

Say all the skilled piano laborers voluntarily belong to a union because their working conditions are horrible…[/quote]

You’re starting from an impossible premise. This argument falls apart as soon as we realize this could never happen except by force.[/quote]

There were 2 examples in the above post, you only touched (not rebutted) one.

And let me repost my post I keep asking for an answer about:

"How about this:

Is it the right of a company to not spend money with a supplier who begins to deal with a competitor. Is that making the guy who owns the supplier less free? Is that coercion or is that a business doing what it wants with it’s own money, they shouldn’t HAVE to spend money with them? Is the competitor now less free?"[/quote]

You keep falling into the same trap.

Freedom is freedom from aggression – as orion put it, it is political freedom to not be forced with guns to do stuff I don’t want to do; it is not freedom from want.[/quote]

Then just answer the questions. If I pay the piano maker to not sell you a piano, are you less free? It makes me happy to see you sans piano, it’s my right to use my possessions to my happiness. I’m also not forcing anyone into anything, the terms are all voluntary.

Is this “aggression” when all actions are voluntary? [/quote]

Your question is not rooted in reality.

In order for this to affect me in any real way you would have to force all piano makers to not sell to me. Good luck, because in reality I DO HAVE ebay, craigslist, etc.[/quote]

dodge duck dive dodge. I’m not going to address any question you have as not real and dismiss it.

133

[quote]nothingclever wrote:
There is no such thing as freedom. It is an illusion. We do not choose what we think or do because such things are decided by our environment and genetics which we cannot control. We don’t choose where we are born, who we are born to, to be born, how our brains are inherently wired, our basic appearance, our basic physical aptitudes and so on. We are like computers. We do not choose the data inputted into us or how we use it. There is no such thing as free will. We do what we are programmed to do. We make choices based on the options available to us and we do not choose what those options are. The “choices” we make are based on an initial set of factors we cannot control. If those factors were different our choices would be different.[/quote]

x2, if you really want to get down to it, but then we can’t have internet circle jerks on what it means to be free…

134

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
dodge duck dive dodge. I’m not going to address any question you have as not real and dismiss it.

[/quote]
I have already answered it. No. Niet. Nein. Non. Iie. Nee. Laa. Bu Shi.

I think I got all the major languages covered.

Your example does not diminish my freedom because it is an erroneous presumption.

I can only be less free in regard to my property. PERIOD.

135

[quote]NAUn wrote:

[quote]nothingclever wrote:
There is no such thing as freedom. It is an illusion. We do not choose what we think or do because such things are decided by our environment and genetics which we cannot control. We don’t choose where we are born, who we are born to, to be born, how our brains are inherently wired, our basic appearance, our basic physical aptitudes and so on. We are like computers. We do not choose the data inputted into us or how we use it. There is no such thing as free will. We do what we are programmed to do. We make choices based on the options available to us and we do not choose what those options are. The “choices” we make are based on an initial set of factors we cannot control. If those factors were different our choices would be different.[/quote]

x2, if you really want to get down to it, but then we can’t have internet circle jerks on what it means to be free…[/quote]

Don’t be snooty. Nor they, him, or yourself, actually chose to make these responses. Ha!

136

[quote]NAUn wrote:

[quote]nothingclever wrote:
There is no such thing as freedom. It is an illusion. We do not choose what we think or do because such things are decided by our environment and genetics which we cannot control. We don’t choose where we are born, who we are born to, to be born, how our brains are inherently wired, our basic appearance, our basic physical aptitudes and so on. We are like computers. We do not choose the data inputted into us or how we use it. There is no such thing as free will. We do what we are programmed to do. We make choices based on the options available to us and we do not choose what those options are. The “choices” we make are based on an initial set of factors we cannot control. If those factors were different our choices would be different.[/quote]

x2, if you really want to get down to it, but then we can’t have internet circle jerks on what it means to be free…[/quote]

A predetermined life is not worth living.

137

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]NAUn wrote:

[quote]nothingclever wrote:
There is no such thing as freedom. It is an illusion. We do not choose what we think or do because such things are decided by our environment and genetics which we cannot control. We don’t choose where we are born, who we are born to, to be born, how our brains are inherently wired, our basic appearance, our basic physical aptitudes and so on. We are like computers. We do not choose the data inputted into us or how we use it. There is no such thing as free will. We do what we are programmed to do. We make choices based on the options available to us and we do not choose what those options are. The “choices” we make are based on an initial set of factors we cannot control. If those factors were different our choices would be different.[/quote]

x2, if you really want to get down to it, but then we can’t have internet circle jerks on what it means to be free…[/quote]

A predetermined life is not worth living.[/quote]

…such is the strenght of the illusion that it makes you believe you’d rather be dead than free…

138

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]NAUn wrote:

[quote]nothingclever wrote:
There is no such thing as freedom. It is an illusion. We do not choose what we think or do because such things are decided by our environment and genetics which we cannot control. We don’t choose where we are born, who we are born to, to be born, how our brains are inherently wired, our basic appearance, our basic physical aptitudes and so on. We are like computers. We do not choose the data inputted into us or how we use it. There is no such thing as free will. We do what we are programmed to do. We make choices based on the options available to us and we do not choose what those options are. The “choices” we make are based on an initial set of factors we cannot control. If those factors were different our choices would be different.[/quote]

x2, if you really want to get down to it, but then we can’t have internet circle jerks on what it means to be free…[/quote]

A predetermined life is not worth living.[/quote]

…such is the strenght of the illusion that it makes you believe you’d rather be dead than free…
[/quote]

Do you wear alot of black? Maybe a little goatee and those round lens type of shades? C’mon, you have at least one fingernail painted black, too. Am I close?

139

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]NAUn wrote:

[quote]nothingclever wrote:
There is no such thing as freedom. It is an illusion. We do not choose what we think or do because such things are decided by our environment and genetics which we cannot control. We don’t choose where we are born, who we are born to, to be born, how our brains are inherently wired, our basic appearance, our basic physical aptitudes and so on. We are like computers. We do not choose the data inputted into us or how we use it. There is no such thing as free will. We do what we are programmed to do. We make choices based on the options available to us and we do not choose what those options are. The “choices” we make are based on an initial set of factors we cannot control. If those factors were different our choices would be different.[/quote]

x2, if you really want to get down to it, but then we can’t have internet circle jerks on what it means to be free…[/quote]

A predetermined life is not worth living.[/quote]

…such is the strenght of the illusion that it makes you believe you’d rather be dead than free…
[/quote]

Do you wear alot of black? Maybe a little goatee and those round lens type of shades? C’mon, you have at least one fingernail painted black, too. Am I close?[/quote]

…no, no, no and no. Sorry (:

140

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]NAUn wrote:

[quote]nothingclever wrote:
There is no such thing as freedom. It is an illusion. We do not choose what we think or do because such things are decided by our environment and genetics which we cannot control. We don’t choose where we are born, who we are born to, to be born, how our brains are inherently wired, our basic appearance, our basic physical aptitudes and so on. We are like computers. We do not choose the data inputted into us or how we use it. There is no such thing as free will. We do what we are programmed to do. We make choices based on the options available to us and we do not choose what those options are. The “choices” we make are based on an initial set of factors we cannot control. If those factors were different our choices would be different.[/quote]

x2, if you really want to get down to it, but then we can’t have internet circle jerks on what it means to be free…[/quote]

A predetermined life is not worth living.[/quote]

…such is the strenght of the illusion that it makes you believe you’d rather be dead than free…
[/quote]

Do you wear alot of black? Maybe a little goatee and those round lens type of shades? C’mon, you have at least one fingernail painted black, too. Am I close?[/quote]

…no, no, no and no. Sorry (:
[/quote]

Maybe I was stereotyping. But, it’s not like I had a…choice in the matter.