[quote]pat wrote:
There’s only one God, many religions. Religion is a means not an end. [/quote]
Not according to some Pagan religions.
[quote]pat wrote:
I seriously doubt any divine revelation would change your mind. You would simply find a reason to reject it.[/quote]
Well I can’t prove it to you obviously, but you’re wrong.
[quote]ranengin wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]ranengin wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]chillain wrote:
Not a perfect fit but prob on-topic enough to be worthwhile:
Pascal’s Wager
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/
[/quote]
To live as though god exists means to believe, if you don’t believe you can’t just fake it so there is really no wager to be made.[/quote]
Dude…
You just uber kicked Blaise right in his math genius nut sack.
Bravo![/quote]
K. Because you know, you can usually refute whole arguments with one sentence.[/quote]
Feel free to point out the fatal flaw in Sufiandy’s argument.
[/quote]
What argument?
[quote]atypical1 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Judging someone’s actions, beliefs, and statements is not the same thing as judging that person’s eternal salvation. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water, aight?[/quote]
Christ forgot to bestow a sense of humor with most of you.
Judging actions, judging eternal salvation, it’s all judging to us heathens.
james
[/quote]
Guess he forgot to give you the ability to make distinctions and define your terms.
[quote]florelius wrote:
[quote]ranengin wrote:
They are wrong. El Shaddai made a covenant with Abraham and his people, not the filthy gentiles![/quote]
This is a joke right?[/quote]
It is presumably an attempt to be funny (at best) or an attempt to gin-up anti-semitic feelings (at worst).
“El Shaddai” is one of the many names for HaShem, the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. It probably best translates to “G-d of the Mountain” (i.e., Mt. Sinai), but is typically translated to “Almighty” in English.
Theologically, the statement is nonsense:
(1) HaShem made a convenent with all goy – all people — the Laws of Noah and
(2) the derision against “filthy gentiles” (that is, non-Jewish people) is absurd. All the people of the world belong to HaShem and are exactly as He chose to make them, none better than the other, and all having the same father and mother.
In fact, we Jewish people were chosen because we were the least of the peoples of the world.
So, in short, a bad joke or a bad slander.
Either way, it’s unfortunate.
Roman Catholic Heroes:
“Speaking as a former high ranking official of the American Communist Party, Mrs. Dodd said: “In the 1930s we put eleven hundred men into the priesthood in order to destroy the Church from within.” The idea was for these men to be ordained and progress to positions of influence and authority as Monsignors and Bishops. She stated that: “Right now they are in the highest places in the Church” ? where they were working to bring about change in order to weaken the Church’s effectiveness against Communism. She also said that these changes would be so drastic that “you will not recognise the Catholic Church.” Dodd gave testimony on communist infiltration of Church and state before the House UnAmerican Activities Committee in the 1950s.”
Sorry guys…your church is run by very evil people.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Roman Catholic Heroes:
“Speaking as a former high ranking official of the American Communist Party, Mrs. Dodd said: “In the 1930s we put eleven hundred men into the priesthood in order to destroy the Church from within.” The idea was for these men to be ordained and progress to positions of influence and authority as Monsignors and Bishops. She stated that: “Right now they are in the highest places in the Church” ? where they were working to bring about change in order to weaken the Church’s effectiveness against Communism. She also said that these changes would be so drastic that “you will not recognise the Catholic Church.” Dodd gave testimony on communist infiltration of Church and state before the House UnAmerican Activities Committee in the 1950s.”
Sorry guys…your church is run by very evil people.[/quote]I will absolutely refrain from reminding you that the Ghost of Joseph McCarthy is about to be tattooed on your forehead or that McCarthy was VERY popular among Catholics OR that I still very much recognize the Catholic (big C Chris) church, though there is definitely a communist/liberation flavor in papal bull the last few decades. I attribute that more to Thomas Aquinas than some former high ranking member of the American communist party though. Of course dearest Christopher, and Cortes, know exactly where I will go here with Aquinas and will thus not likely pursue that line of thought.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Roman Catholic Heroes:
“Speaking as a former high ranking official of the American Communist Party, Mrs. Dodd said: “In the 1930s we put eleven hundred men into the priesthood in order to destroy the Church from within.” The idea was for these men to be ordained and progress to positions of influence and authority as Monsignors and Bishops. She stated that: “Right now they are in the highest places in the Church” ? where they were working to bring about change in order to weaken the Church’s effectiveness against Communism. She also said that these changes would be so drastic that “you will not recognise the Catholic Church.” Dodd gave testimony on communist infiltration of Church and state before the House UnAmerican Activities Committee in the 1950s.”
Sorry guys…your church is run by very evil people.[/quote]I will absolutely refrain from reminding you that the Ghost of Joseph McCarthy is about to be tattooed on your forehead or that McCarthy was VERY popular among Catholics OR that I still very much recognize the Catholic (big C Chris) church, though there is definitely a communist/liberation flavor in papal bull the last few decades. I attribute that more to Thomas Aquinas than some former high ranking member of the American communist party though. Of course dearest Christopher, and Cortes, know exactly where I will go here with Aquinas and will thus not likely pursue that line of thought.
[/quote]
I won’t bother with it because this whole thing is just a big Headhunter troll job that I’m not interested in encouraging.
I have no doubt that Communist parties infiltrated the universal Church. I know a retired priest in phx who is soviet kgb, he had a conversion 10 years after becoming a priest.
However, I reject that false liberation theology is taught out of the papal house hold. Maybe true liberation theology (there is a difference), but B16 has shut down Bishops who have tried to teach LT (especially in SA). I’ve seen it happen (JPII did it, but since B16 was Prefect of the Inquisition he signed his name to the paper).
There is a reason why they used to call him God’s German Shepard. The man said no more than probably anyone else. Further, if you’re going to make such claims, please give source and show it is the modernistic heresy of liberation theology.
I said flavored Chris. B16’s recent sermon in Cuba (was it Cuba?) had liberation undertones. Jesus did not come to liberate societies and free political prisoners regardless of what they’re in prison for. It reminds me of when I heard Kenneth Hagin years ago warn people against extreme versions of his heretical new age teachings not seeming to realize that that’s what he taught. “See, he’s good. He told us to watch out for that stuff.” Uh huh.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I said flavored Chris. B16’s recent sermon in Cuba (was it Cuba?) had liberation undertones. Jesus did not come to liberate societies and free political prisoners regardless of what they’re in prison for. It reminds me of when I heard Kenneth Hagin years ago warn people against extreme versions of his heretical new age teachings not seeming to realize that that’s what he taught. “See, he’s good. He told us to watch out for that stuff.” Uh huh. [/quote]
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
I grew up in a christian household. My denomination was Church of God in Christ, the largest african-american pentecostal denomination in the world. Apart of this doctrine was the teaching that all non-believers in christianity are doomed to eternal torment in hell. Now, every christian i’ve ever ran across seem to have no problem with this and seem to believe that the person in question “chooses” to go to hell. I don’t want to go off on a tangent, so I won’t get into why I think that’s nonsense. But my question is, what if christians are wrong, compared to say muslims.
In Islam, they believe christians are wrong and hell bound. So suppose the christian in question dies and in the afterlife, finds out he was wrong all along and that Islam was the correct path. He’s standing in front of Allah who is ready to throw him into hell’s fiery pits. The christian explains that he didn’t know Allah was the true God and it isn’t fair that Allah should send them to hell, especially after he allowed Satan (they have satan in Islam) to deceive them into thinking christianity was the right path. Allah says he revealed himself in his infallible, holy word, the quran! The christian responds that it’s no way he could’ve known the quran was the infallible word of God.
The christian asks why didn’t Allah show himself and prove to people he is the real God, and Islam is his true religion. Allah says he must remain hidden, otherwise it’d violate people’s free will. Allah mentions the time 30 years ago when the christian was standing at the bus stop and a muslim came up to him and tried to convince him to convert to islam and invite him to the mosque, so the claim could be made that he “heard the truth”. The christian explains that he grew up in a christian household and christianity was all he knew to be correct and that he was thoroughly convinced that the muslim was wrong.
Allah says it doesn’t matter, and that he should’ve just had blind faith and believed. Even though the christian had no reason at all to change his beliefs on the spot or think islam was the real religion. Allah tells the christian “im not sending you to hell you sent yourself off to hell you go!” and throws him into the fiery pits.
The question must be asked, would any christian think Allah would be perfectly just for casting them into hell for having the wrong belief, even when Allah made no effort to make himself known that he was the true God, except thru a book a certain group of people claim to be his word?
If they would not believe Allah to be just for doing this to them, then why do they believe the Christian God is correct for doing this to non-christians, based on these exact same standards?[/quote]
Islam is the simplification of Christian doctrines and a heresy. They copied Christians, so if Christians didn’t get it right, they copied from a bad source.[/quote]
Wrong and wrong. Islam isn’t a copying of Christianity any more than Christianity is a copy of Judaism.
Jesus came along and said the Jews were stinking high hell up to heaven. He was considered a living embodiment of God and established the ideas of the trinity.
Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is in quite a few ways. For one, they believed that Muhammad was a lot like Moses, and that Jesus wasn’t actually the son of God but a messenger/Prophet that God communicated with when the Jews strayed from the path, some Muslims believe Jesus went to India and lived a full life, letting someone else die for him on the cross. Muhammad was the last person that God spoke with, and thus Gods final word and is often referred to as, “The Seal of the Prophets.” In the context of this particular discussion that far greater minds than yours or my own have discussed to exhaustion in the past.
Unless, you are like most republicans and don’t really have a problem with Romney as a Mormon. They believe the last messenger/Prophet was Joe Smith, I guess he got the word in after Muhammad. He believes that Mormons get their own planets to dominate when the body dies. They believe in an immortal soul, so if I understand it right full on Mormons go to planets where they are God like and have dominion over non Mormon souls who’s fortune leaves them at some weird mormons heaven planet, where you can’t enjoy things like dancing with your mom, a fine cigar, or a quality cognac even though Christ reportedly made water into wine.
Just in case you were wondering I thought I’d share the truth with you.
But, for some reason Islam is heresy, where Judaism and Mormonism are not.
Sad thing is, even the major beliefs from Judaism are rooted in other belief systems. All these religions have very different ideas of punishment and the afterlife.
One of the great things about Islam is that you can go to hell, through a trail and wisdom you can journey back to heaven, which shows that God is actually forgiving. In Christianity you go to hell for eternity. How imagine that? An infinite punishment for things done in a very finite life.
I said I wouldn’t post here again and was called a biggot for questioning people’s respect for Mormonism, I see that calling the Practice of Islam can be called heresy, I see that as actual biggotry since you actually have very little knowledge about Islam and probably don’t know a single Muslim.
Anyhow, cheers.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
There’s only one God, many religions. Religion is a means not an end. [/quote]
Not according to some Pagan religions.
[/quote]
Which ones? There are scant few left and precisely because they didn’t work. Most now, are lower levels of spirituality like divination, nature worship, channeling crystals and shit like that.
There is a reason we’re faithful. It’s not just being hoodwinked by elaborate literature, the shit actually works and we see it all the time in out daily lives. It’s impossible to convince somebody of personal experience, that’s why I don’t bother, but it’s there and it’s personal.
[quote]pat wrote:
I seriously doubt any divine revelation would change your mind. You would simply find a reason to reject it.
Well I can’t prove it to you obviously, but you’re wrong.[/quote]
You’re waiting to get knocked in the head by God but you ignore what is already there. You look for reasons not to believe, you are not looking for reasons to believe. You can’t win the lotto if you don’t by a ticket. You can’t only look for reasons to doubt and expect to find faith. There’s always a reason to doubt. But there is also just as much reason to keep the faith.
Every single bit of evil in the world is a knock on faith, it always has been the case and it’s the number one reason why people don’t believe. I get it. I don’t know why God allows these terrible things, but the truth is, he seldom interferes. And when he finally does, it’s usually not a whole bunch of fun.
Another reason is people are afraid to change. People are afraid to turn into some hell-fire bible thumping freak if they let go. But it’s not like that, you will always be you.
This is an old Jesuit prayer for non-beleivers:
Dear God, please help my unbelief.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
In fact, we Jewish people were chosen because we were the least of the peoples of the world.
[/quote]
Precisely correct. I’d love to talk shop with you someday, you get it.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Wrong and wrong. Islam isn’t a copying of Christianity any more than Christianity is a copy of Judaism.
Jesus came along and said the Jews were stinking high hell up to heaven. He was considered a living embodiment of God and established the ideas of the trinity.
Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is in quite a few ways. For one, they believed that Muhammad was a lot like Moses, and that Jesus wasn’t actually the son of God but a messenger/Prophet that God communicated with when the Jews strayed from the path, some Muslims believe Jesus went to India and lived a full life, letting someone else die for him on the cross. Muhammad was the last person that God spoke with, and thus Gods final word and is often referred to as, “The Seal of the Prophets.” In the context of this particular discussion that far greater minds than yours or my own have discussed to exhaustion in the past.
Unless, you are like most republicans and don’t really have a problem with Romney as a Mormon. They believe the last messenger/Prophet was Joe Smith, I guess he got the word in after Muhammad. He believes that Mormons get their own planets to dominate when the body dies. They believe in an immortal soul, so if I understand it right full on Mormons go to planets where they are God like and have dominion over non Mormon souls who’s fortune leaves them at some weird mormons heaven planet, where you can’t enjoy things like dancing with your mom, a fine cigar, or a quality cognac even though Christ reportedly made water into wine.
Just in case you were wondering I thought I’d share the truth with you.
But, for some reason Islam is heresy, where Judaism and Mormonism are not.
Sad thing is, even the major beliefs from Judaism are rooted in other belief systems. All these religions have very different ideas of punishment and the afterlife.
One of the great things about Islam is that you can go to hell, through a trail and wisdom you can journey back to heaven, which shows that God is actually forgiving. In Christianity you go to hell for eternity. How imagine that? An infinite punishment for things done in a very finite life.
I said I wouldn’t post here again and was called a biggot for questioning people’s respect for Mormonism, I see that calling the Practice of Islam can be called heresy, I see that as actual biggotry since you actually have very little knowledge about Islam and probably don’t know a single Muslim.
Anyhow, cheers. [/quote]
Actually, many of your statements here are incorrect.
While the word “copy” is a poor word choice (I don’t remember who first said that), the fact is that Christianity’s roots lie in Judaism, just as Islam’s roots (based on some very cogent historical research and argumentation, which most Muslims are against a priori) can be said to lie in Judaism and Christianity.
Jesus said nothing about the Jews “stinking high hell up to heaven” (not really sure what that metaphor is meant to convey). His problems were with specific Jewish leaders, especially those responsible for the oversight of the Temple cult (priesthood) and those responsible for the religious guidance of the people (Pharisees, scribes). His issues were not with Judaism itself; if they were, it’s amazing just how Jewish Jesus’ teachings are, not to mention the extensive incorporation of Second Temple Jewish theological beliefs (resurrection of the dead, atonement through martyrdom, etc.) into Jesus’ own teaching. Moreover, Jesus did NOT establish the idea of the trinity; that was a later development in Christian theology.
Your statements about the similarities between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam completely ignore the testimony of the texts themselves. Is Muhammed ASSUMED by Muslims to be like Moses? Sure, as they characterize Moses. In reality, however, the gospel writers go out of their way to portray Jesus as a Moses-like prophet. Matthew’s gospel, for instance, pays almost no attention to the concept of Jesus’ divinity, focusing instead on establishing Jesus as the prophesied “prophet like Moses.” Jesus does miracles like Moses (something Muhammed NEVER did), gives the law like Moses (Matt. 5-7), and is glorified like Moses in the very PRESENCE of Moses (the Transfiguration - Matt. 17:1-3). So your first claim (i.e., that Islam views its prophet more like Judaism views its prophet) is wrong. Christianity views its prophet (who Just happens to ALSO be the Son of God) like the Jews viewed their prophet. More importantly, the other implicit comparison you made between Jews and Muslims (i.e., the idea that Jesus didn’t die and may have been a prophet) is absurd. The legitimate references to Jesus in the Talmud are ALL clearly negative. Jews saw Jesus as a troublemaker; they did not try to whitewash him the way the Muslims did.
Most Christians DO think Mormonism is a heresy. They’d just rather have someone in office who they think will protect children’s lives rather than end them.
There is diversity in Islam just as there is in Christianity. Many muslims DO believe that the post-death punishment is eternal (and the Quran can be read in more than one way on this issue), just as many Christians believe that the post-death punishment is NOT eternal (and the Bible can also be read in more than one way on this issue).
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
[quote]clip11 wrote:
I grew up in a christian household. My denomination was Church of God in Christ, the largest african-american pentecostal denomination in the world. Apart of this doctrine was the teaching that all non-believers in christianity are doomed to eternal torment in hell. Now, every christian i’ve ever ran across seem to have no problem with this and seem to believe that the person in question “chooses” to go to hell. I don’t want to go off on a tangent, so I won’t get into why I think that’s nonsense. But my question is, what if christians are wrong, compared to say muslims.
In Islam, they believe christians are wrong and hell bound. So suppose the christian in question dies and in the afterlife, finds out he was wrong all along and that Islam was the correct path. He’s standing in front of Allah who is ready to throw him into hell’s fiery pits. The christian explains that he didn’t know Allah was the true God and it isn’t fair that Allah should send them to hell, especially after he allowed Satan (they have satan in Islam) to deceive them into thinking christianity was the right path. Allah says he revealed himself in his infallible, holy word, the quran! The christian responds that it’s no way he could’ve known the quran was the infallible word of God.
The christian asks why didn’t Allah show himself and prove to people he is the real God, and Islam is his true religion. Allah says he must remain hidden, otherwise it’d violate people’s free will. Allah mentions the time 30 years ago when the christian was standing at the bus stop and a muslim came up to him and tried to convince him to convert to islam and invite him to the mosque, so the claim could be made that he “heard the truth”. The christian explains that he grew up in a christian household and christianity was all he knew to be correct and that he was thoroughly convinced that the muslim was wrong.
Allah says it doesn’t matter, and that he should’ve just had blind faith and believed. Even though the christian had no reason at all to change his beliefs on the spot or think islam was the real religion. Allah tells the christian “im not sending you to hell you sent yourself off to hell you go!” and throws him into the fiery pits.
The question must be asked, would any christian think Allah would be perfectly just for casting them into hell for having the wrong belief, even when Allah made no effort to make himself known that he was the true God, except thru a book a certain group of people claim to be his word?
If they would not believe Allah to be just for doing this to them, then why do they believe the Christian God is correct for doing this to non-christians, based on these exact same standards?[/quote]
All religion is anti-mind and anti-life. Man needs his mind to think. Religion demands that you shut off your thinking and accept something as true because of faith. But shutting down your brain is a formula for death.
If you have a PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that leads you to believe, that’s different. That’s using your brain. Religion has nothing to do with that.
“The first priest was the first rogue who met the first fool.” – Voltaire
[/quote]
Religion is all about money and power. Nothing to do with God . I have come to the conclusion that Religion is Anti God
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Wrong and wrong. Islam isn’t a copying of Christianity any more than Christianity is a copy of Judaism.
[/quote]
…lolwat? Of course Christianity isn’t a copy of Judaism, it is a righteous fulfillment of Judaism. It is modern Judaism.
This is plain as day, false. Both statements. Where in the world did you learn this, HH?
First, if anything all of man kind was stinking to high hell. Not just jews. Second, Jesus came not to remove the law or the prophets (read: he did not come to stop Judaism), he came to fulfill them (read: came to fulfill Judaism, to practice it perfectly). He came to righteously fulfill all that is written in the Old Testament, perfectly. From Adam in the Garden, the last of the three promises to Abraham, to the Israelites in the desert, to King David. Jesus didn’t come to cut ties with Judaism and the past and start fresh with something called a “Church”, he came to do those things man was supposed to do perfectly throughout salvation history, Adam in protecting the Garden and his wife against the enemy, Moses and the Israelites in coming out of the water, going into the wilderness to be tested three times, and King David in creating God’s Kingdom and a permanent temple.
K. I’m sure the people of Ishmael and Isaac would disagree. I’d also disagree because historically, theologically, scholastically, and anecdotally, this is untrue.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:<<< Religion is all about money and power. Nothing to do with God . I have come to the conclusion that Religion is Anti God >>>[/quote]Properly understood you are entirely correct.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
In fact, we Jewish people were chosen because we were the least of the peoples of the world.
[/quote]
Precisely correct. I’d love to talk shop with you someday, you get it. [/quote]
Does this come off as mildly anti-semetic to anyone else here?
Jewbacca - We Jews were chosen because we’re the least of the people on Earth
Pat - DAMN STRAIGHT!
There are many things that Pat is that I find biblically abhorrent. Anti-semetic is not one of them. No. He is not being that. Mildly or otherwise. That’s just not his thing. I’ve known him a very long time and have had year long conversations with him until he so courageously put me on ignore. He is enthusiastically (though ignorantly) agreeing with Jewbacca and nothing more than that should be read into it.
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Wrong and wrong. Islam isn’t a copying of Christianity any more than Christianity is a copy of Judaism.
Jesus came along and said the Jews were stinking high hell up to heaven. He was considered a living embodiment of God and established the ideas of the trinity.
Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is in quite a few ways. For one, they believed that Muhammad was a lot like Moses, and that Jesus wasn’t actually the son of God but a messenger/Prophet that God communicated with when the Jews strayed from the path, some Muslims believe Jesus went to India and lived a full life, letting someone else die for him on the cross. Muhammad was the last person that God spoke with, and thus Gods final word and is often referred to as, “The Seal of the Prophets.” In the context of this particular discussion that far greater minds than yours or my own have discussed to exhaustion in the past.
Unless, you are like most republicans and don’t really have a problem with Romney as a Mormon. They believe the last messenger/Prophet was Joe Smith, I guess he got the word in after Muhammad. He believes that Mormons get their own planets to dominate when the body dies. They believe in an immortal soul, so if I understand it right full on Mormons go to planets where they are God like and have dominion over non Mormon souls who’s fortune leaves them at some weird mormons heaven planet, where you can’t enjoy things like dancing with your mom, a fine cigar, or a quality cognac even though Christ reportedly made water into wine.
Just in case you were wondering I thought I’d share the truth with you.
But, for some reason Islam is heresy, where Judaism and Mormonism are not.
Sad thing is, even the major beliefs from Judaism are rooted in other belief systems. All these religions have very different ideas of punishment and the afterlife.
One of the great things about Islam is that you can go to hell, through a trail and wisdom you can journey back to heaven, which shows that God is actually forgiving. In Christianity you go to hell for eternity. How imagine that? An infinite punishment for things done in a very finite life.
I said I wouldn’t post here again and was called a biggot for questioning people’s respect for Mormonism, I see that calling the Practice of Islam can be called heresy, I see that as actual biggotry since you actually have very little knowledge about Islam and probably don’t know a single Muslim.
Anyhow, cheers. [/quote]
Actually, many of your statements here are incorrect.
While the word “copy” is a poor word choice (I don’t remember who first said that), the fact is that Christianity’s roots lie in Judaism, just as Islam’s roots (based on some very cogent historical research and argumentation, which most Muslims are against a priori) can be said to lie in Judaism and Christianity.
Jesus said nothing about the Jews “stinking high hell up to heaven” (not really sure what that metaphor is meant to convey). His problems were with specific Jewish leaders, especially those responsible for the oversight of the Temple cult (priesthood) and those responsible for the religious guidance of the people (Pharisees, scribes). His issues were not with Judaism itself; if they were, it’s amazing just how Jewish Jesus’ teachings are, not to mention the extensive incorporation of Second Temple Jewish theological beliefs (resurrection of the dead, atonement through martyrdom, etc.) into Jesus’ own teaching. Moreover, Jesus did NOT establish the idea of the trinity; that was a later development in Christian theology.
Your statements about the similarities between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam completely ignore the testimony of the texts themselves. Is Muhammed ASSUMED by Muslims to be like Moses? Sure, as they characterize Moses. In reality, however, the gospel writers go out of their way to portray Jesus as a Moses-like prophet. Matthew’s gospel, for instance, pays almost no attention to the concept of Jesus’ divinity, focusing instead on establishing Jesus as the prophesied “prophet like Moses.” Jesus does miracles like Moses (something Muhammed NEVER did), gives the law like Moses (Matt. 5-7), and is glorified like Moses in the very PRESENCE of Moses (the Transfiguration - Matt. 17:1-3). So your first claim (i.e., that Islam views its prophet more like Judaism views its prophet) is wrong. Christianity views its prophet (who Just happens to ALSO be the Son of God) like the Jews viewed their prophet. More importantly, the other implicit comparison you made between Jews and Muslims (i.e., the idea that Jesus didn’t die and may have been a prophet) is absurd. The legitimate references to Jesus in the Talmud are ALL clearly negative. Jews saw Jesus as a troublemaker; they did not try to whitewash him the way the Muslims did.
Most Christians DO think Mormonism is a heresy. They’d just rather have someone in office who they think will protect children’s lives rather than end them.
There is diversity in Islam just as there is in Christianity. Many muslims DO believe that the post-death punishment is eternal (and the Quran can be read in more than one way on this issue), just as many Christians believe that the post-death punishment is NOT eternal (and the Bible can also be read in more than one way on this issue).
[/quote]
Why don’t you grow a pair and not misquote me. I would never suggest it was a copy. I suggested that looking at the big picture since every single religion which believes in some version of the Abrahemic God borrows ideas from it’s predecessor, says the predecessor got x,y,z wrong, and that xy, yy, and xz are actually what God wants. That is what I said and this was in response to someone else saying that X religion is heretic because they practice a screwed up interpretation of the predecessor. It’s retarded, and it’s not looking at the whole first. It’s looking from a finite position and continually arguing it is the correct position simply, “because.”
You don’t need to tell me Jesus was a Jew. In order for you to understand what I am saying, simply examine the sort of actions Jesus took, and the sort of actions Jewish leaders took in order to ensure he died were the result of the actions and things that Jesus said about Jewish leaders. So, in effect Jesus wasn’t here only to save man, but was here to make sure people did the right thing for the right reason, the Jews were doing it wrong so God sent him. On the contrary if the Jews were doing it right (jewish leadership here included) Then Jesus would not have had to die. If you believe Jesus had to die, maybe you believe in determinism, and don’t believe in Free Will. But that’s a complicated matter, and good for another thread entirely.
You miss the point entirely. Judaism didn’t believe in a sort of trinity, or that God would necessarily embody human form. Christians version of the same God is a trinity, the son who lived as a human being. Yeah, Jesus was a prophet of sorts, but there is no such thing in Islam. Islam looks at these men as all prophets and believe that God would never embody a human form, and that such ideas are blasphemous. This is all common knowledge, they believe it so strongly that people are murdered for portraying Muhammad or God in picture form. It illustrates a strong break from Christianity and probably back to something more similar to Judaism. Now, Muslims don’t believe Jesus died on the cross or was crucified at all. Some believe he was wished away by Allah/God. Others believe he fled and someone else took his place.
I am talking about most Christians. A lot of Christians, or former Christians view Mormonism as heresy when it suits them. If they are heretics, would you want one as your leader or someone who you actually consider Christian? I mean, this is a matter of God for people of faith, but they have a curious way of separating Church and State. When it’s Islam it’s heresy, when its Mormonism and Mitt Romney it’s okay. Get it? One guy on here is outright saying Islam is heresy, but not Mormonism when it comes to Mitt Romney, this is the simple bias I was pointing out before you drug this thing out, you know you drug it out, I know you drug it out, the whole board knows it. When someone from the sackless republican club gets called out, people like yourself and sex machine come to defense by simply convoluting the conversation and nit picking aside comments rather than addressing the big issue. Change the subject, don’t keep your own people in check and continue with the mob mentality. Stay in line little soldier, if you differ too much your a weird hippy and cant be part of the club! Me personally, I think Mormons are strange. I’ve been around them, lived with them, been stationed with them, went through training with them, and I can’t bring myself to trust people who honestly believe it wrong to dance or to take part in some of the finer things we as men know that life has to offer. Be honest with yourselves. If you think I’m a piece of shit hippy that’s fine. Rather than trying to see things for what they are, often we use our logic and powers of reason to justify whatever it is we already believe in. This is a way of logic and reason, it’s the premise of hypothesis testing, but when you do it about your life and have vaguely inductive things to back up your beliefs, you corner yourselves and are doomed to the same rut until you open your minds.
As for the eternal hell thing. I bring it up because it is a classic, classic, classic problem for Christians. Not surprising all of a sudden people interpret it differently because you cannot have a just God if his punishments are unjust. Eternity in the worst you could possibly imagine butt rape hell is pretty harsh for ANYTHING you could do in a finite life when you really think about it. Most popular beliefs in Islam include things like greater and lesser Jihad as a reality of life, as Jihad is a struggle against. My understanding is that there are different severeties of hell. Something like a long desert where you suffer from thirst and boils for weeks, possibly years on end, but you can continually improve and struggle to make ones way to heaven.
Christian Hell is just hell. It’s supposed to be beyond your comprehension of awful, and it’s for eternity. As you point out I’m sure there are some different interpretations, there always are, but they are in no way classic interpretations and if there were, I’d like to see them from something published. And not from some extinct version of Christianity that was made extinct by the current version of Christianity for heresy.