What Happened in the Ukraine?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I guess my point was that right now, Scotland is having a vote on whether or not to succeed from the UK and no one is batting so much as an eyelash. If the citizens WANT it, who the fuck is anyone else to stop it? I mean, obviously the Ukraine has a vested interest in keeping it, but it seems a bit hypocritical that we are sanctioning Russia because it supports independence from an area that is largely Russian speaking and has such historic ties. I mean, why WOULDN’T Russia want that part of the Ukraine back? And who’s business (other than Ukraine, which is NOT a NATO member) is it to say otherwise? The EU and the NATO (the US) are the ones upsetting the status quo by accepting the new eastern block countries and removing the “buffer zone”… I mean, what did they expect? For Putin to sit there and “take it”?[/quote]
but it is a different situation. russia helped put in a very crooked politician, that truly divided the country. Also a lot of politicians were crooked through the previous president, russia or both. russian state television was filling their heads with propaganda,saying that the Ukrainian government was preparing genocide for them, even claimed that they were building death camps for them.pro ukrainian newspaper, radio stations etc were attacked and their employees jailed or threatened. ukrainian orthodox churches and ukrainian Catholic churches were attacked, Baptists were murdered, a woman was lead outside to be be beaten up pro ukrainian views. The seperatist fighters have a huge chunk of foreign fighters basically all russian and on contract. Also as for historic ties, russia is making history up. those lands were zaporozhian cossack lands which happened to be ukrainian until they were forcibly moved all over russia. After the Ukrainian leader khmelnytskiy signed an agreement with russia as a protectorate with massive autonomy, and ukrainians helped push back the tartar s and turks, that that area was colonized with for most part ukrainians, with little outposts of Germans and serbian here or there. As for russia having a right to because of historic ties, well all 9 ukraine as historic ties to russia. and believe me the relationship has never been too favorable to ukraine, ukrainians and especially their culture. [/quote]

I see. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten me on that. From your perspective, is there a big difference between Crimea and the rest of Ukraine? Or is the same propaganda being used there?

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[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I guess my point was that right now, Scotland is having a vote on whether or not to succeed from the UK and no one is batting so much as an eyelash. If the citizens WANT it, who the fuck is anyone else to stop it? I mean, obviously the Ukraine has a vested interest in keeping it, but it seems a bit hypocritical that we are sanctioning Russia because it supports independence from an area that is largely Russian speaking and has such historic ties. I mean, why WOULDN’T Russia want that part of the Ukraine back? And who’s business (other than Ukraine, which is NOT a NATO member) is it to say otherwise? The EU and the NATO (the US) are the ones upsetting the status quo by accepting the new eastern block countries and removing the “buffer zone”… I mean, what did they expect? For Putin to sit there and “take it”?[/quote]

as for the buffer zone totally. I understand russia s opinion on this, it is just unfortunate being ukrainian and seeing your family’s home being used as a pawn again lol
[/quote]

Yeah - that’s gotta suck. But it is what it is.

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[quote]Gkhan wrote:
So why is this happening now? I mean Putin’s been in control for a long time. What was the tipping point? Loss of his ally Qaddafi in Libya, and potentially Assad in Syria? The creeping influence of Western Europe? Loss of Russian world wide prestige? [/quote]

I would say, YES to Libya and Syria, YES to creeping western influence and NO to loss of prestige… Putin may be a vain man, but I don’t believe vanity would cloud his judgement - he’s too smart for that. Unless he’s no longer happy taking his shirt off and getting a little too old to throw people around on the mat… He MAY effectively be having a world leader’s equivalent to a mid-life crisis. Instead of buying a sports car, he figures he’ll just annex part of a country. LOL

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[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I guess my point was that right now, Scotland is having a vote on whether or not to succeed from the UK and no one is batting so much as an eyelash. If the citizens WANT it, who the fuck is anyone else to stop it? I mean, obviously the Ukraine has a vested interest in keeping it, but it seems a bit hypocritical that we are sanctioning Russia because it supports independence from an area that is largely Russian speaking and has such historic ties. I mean, why WOULDN’T Russia want that part of the Ukraine back? And who’s business (other than Ukraine, which is NOT a NATO member) is it to say otherwise? The EU and the NATO (the US) are the ones upsetting the status quo by accepting the new eastern block countries and removing the “buffer zone”… I mean, what did they expect? For Putin to sit there and “take it”?[/quote]
but it is a different situation. russia helped put in a very crooked politician, that truly divided the country. Also a lot of politicians were crooked through the previous president, russia or both. russian state television was filling their heads with propaganda,saying that the Ukrainian government was preparing genocide for them, even claimed that they were building death camps for them.pro ukrainian newspaper, radio stations etc were attacked and their employees jailed or threatened. ukrainian orthodox churches and ukrainian Catholic churches were attacked, Baptists were murdered, a woman was lead outside to be be beaten up pro ukrainian views. The seperatist fighters have a huge chunk of foreign fighters basically all russian and on contract. Also as for historic ties, russia is making history up. those lands were zaporozhian cossack lands which happened to be ukrainian until they were forcibly moved all over russia. After the Ukrainian leader khmelnytskiy signed an agreement with russia as a protectorate with massive autonomy, and ukrainians helped push back the tartar s and turks, that that area was colonized with for most part ukrainians, with little outposts of Germans and serbian here or there. As for russia having a right to because of historic ties, well all 9 ukraine as historic ties to russia. and believe me the relationship has never been too favorable to ukraine, ukrainians and especially their culture. [/quote]

I see. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten me on that. From your perspective, is there a big difference between Crimea and the rest of Ukraine? Or is the same propaganda being used there?[/quote]
Crimea is the crimean tartar s homeland who stain exiled. As for it being captured by the russian empire a lot of fighting was done by ukrainian cossacks, the tartar s main enemy. Over the years it became a russian symbol, with the defense of sevestapol and being the seat of the Russian navy. I do know there was a lot of supporters for unity there, especially the tartar s who returned who have become serious ukrainian patriots. There was lots if support for joining with russia, but no where near what the illegal rigged vote says. Also since it left, tartar s have been murdered and ukrainian cultural institutions closed down. ukrainian has been named in school as well. I’m sure much more has been done too. As a bite in the ass for the voters that voted yes, their economy will die, no tourists came this year.

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Interesting article, claiming Putin wants to unite all the Russian speaking people, even the ones living in nations outside the Russian Federation. To me, he’s a nuclear armed second coming of Hitler.

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I think what alot of you are forgetting is what the current Ukrainian government is doing. For starters, they are indiscriminantly targeting civilians, their homes, hospitals, schools, orphanages, retirement homes, etc.In addition, they send no aid for civillians.

Nor do they do anything for internally displaced refugees, ie the ones who fled to other parts of Ukraine and not Russia, no aid or assistance. Nothing. Also,Natsgvardia, an all volunteer force made up of Ukrainian neo-nazi nationalists such as Right Sector(you know, the people who burned over 100 people alive in Odessa), are running amock, shooting at anything that moves.

567


Translation: Glory to Ukraine? We wanted to join EU, ended up in the SS

Has a better ring to it in Russian and Ukrainian

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[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I guess my point was that right now, Scotland is having a vote on whether or not to succeed from the UK and no one is batting so much as an eyelash. If the citizens WANT it, who the fuck is anyone else to stop it? I mean, obviously the Ukraine has a vested interest in keeping it, but it seems a bit hypocritical that we are sanctioning Russia because it supports independence from an area that is largely Russian speaking and has such historic ties.

I mean, why WOULDN’T Russia want that part of the Ukraine back? And who’s business (other than Ukraine, which is NOT a NATO member) is it to say otherwise? The EU and the NATO (the US) are the ones upsetting the status quo by accepting the new eastern block countries and removing the “buffer zone”… I mean, what did they expect? For Putin to sit there and “take it”?[/quote]
Yes.Thank you. Someone who understands. There are alot of double standards. Ukrainians overthrew their government by force(no the protests were not peaceful), then organized a vote. The west applauded it as a move towards democracy. The people of Donetsk and Lugansk employed similar tactics to pursue their interests. They used force to overthrow local government, then organized their own vote. Despite similar tactics, the west condemned the pro-Russian action. In the words of Kerry:“â?¦contrived and bogus.” Alot of double standards.

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[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Am I incorrect in my understanding that the majority of the citizens of EASTERN Ukraine actually WANT to be a part of Russia, or at the very least, independent? Didn’t they have a vote on it several months ago?[/quote]

Majority, ±50%. I don’t think civilian opinions have much weight at the moment.
[/quote]
that vote was rigged though, no international observers. Also towns that got taken by the Ukrainian army such as mariupol, you got civilians taking rifle courses, rallying at check points for ukraine and digging trenches for the Ukrainian army. but still on the flip side there still many seperatists supporters.[/quote]
The vote was back in April. That’s old news. Let’s look at now. It does not matter if they are ethnic Russian or Ukrainian, the people of eastern Ukraine have absolutely no sympathy for a government that bombs their homes, schools, and hospitals. They have no sympathy for those who killed members of their family and close friends. There’s no going back to Ukraine. Not after the atrocities they comitted.

570

Another article, Putin now says Russia has the right to “protect” Russian speaking people in the Baltics! If he does, he directly takes on NATO. Is he that crazy? Why would he want this?

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[quote]Gkhan wrote:

Another article, Putin now says Russia has the right to “protect” Russian speaking people in the Baltics! If he does, he directly takes on NATO. Is he that crazy? Why would he want this?[/quote]

Short answer - he does it because he can. Putin isn’t crazy. He called NATO’s bluff on Ukraine. Now he’s slowly escalating the tensions in the Baltics - abduction of an Estonian security offical, imprisonment of the crew of a Latvian fishing trawler…

It will be funny (in a macabre sort of way) how Russian state media will try to demonize Estonians. I suppose they’ll go to the standard “German collaborationists in WW2” scenario…

As I’ve written before, he’ll outsmart NATO with continuous escalation, without a clear “compelling event” for activating the NATO defense clause, constantly giving NATO a fig leaf excuse for non-action.

“These aren’t Russian tanks, but tanks captured by pro-Russian separatists”. Unlike Ukraine, who at least has Soviet military hardware, Estonia has a handful of Western APCs, but no one will care - it is important only to sow doubt in the West and undermine the pathetic “resolve”.

Do aging, inefficient European countries preoccupied with their own problems want a war with Russia over Tallinn? I don’t think so.

Even the Americans don’t care. Russians aren’t chopping heads of on the internet (Russian Chechen mercenaries do that, but are smart enough not to post it online) so it’s hard to marshal forces against Russia. Couple that with the bought Euro politicians and people who admire Putin for his “leadership style” and the outcome is sadly predictable…

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[quote]loppar wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

Another article, Putin now says Russia has the right to “protect” Russian speaking people in the Baltics! If he does, he directly takes on NATO. Is he that crazy? Why would he want this?[/quote]

Short answer - he does it because he can. Putin isn’t crazy. He called NATO’s bluff on Ukraine. Now he’s slowly escalating the tensions in the Baltics - abduction of an Estonian security offical, imprisonment of the crew of a Latvian fishing trawler…

It will be funny (in a macabre sort of way) how Russian state media will try to demonize Estonians. I suppose they’ll go to the standard “German collaborationists in WW2” scenario…

As I’ve written before, he’ll outsmart NATO with continuous escalation, without a clear “compelling event” for activating the NATO defense clause, constantly giving NATO a fig leaf excuse for non-action.

“These aren’t Russian tanks, but tanks captured by pro-Russian separatists”. Unlike Ukraine, who at least has Soviet military hardware, Estonia has a handful of Western APCs, but no one will care - it is important only to sow doubt in the West and undermine the pathetic “resolve”.

Do aging, inefficient European countries preoccupied with their own problems want a war with Russia over Tallinn? I don’t think so.

Even the Americans don’t care. Russians aren’t chopping heads of on the internet (Russian Chechen mercenaries do that, but are smart enough not to post it online) so it’s hard to marshal forces against Russia. Couple that with the bought Euro politicians and people who admire Putin for his “leadership style” and the outcome is sadly predictable…
[/quote]

What was NATO’s bluff in Ukraine? It had no obligation to provide collective defense for that state.

The air campaign against ISIS preceded the beheading of western journalists. The executions were a response to it.

Subversive actions against NATO members will be an entirely different animal. The U.S. cannot and will not risk undermining the security assurances it provides its allies. If the Baltic states were aggrandized with no response, Japan would surely increase its military spending dramatically and seek to become a nuclear weapon state. The gulf states would also seek to provide for their own security. The result would be the proliferation of multiple security dilemmas ring in strategically vital regions and many states seeking nuclear capability.

573

[quote]Bismark wrote:

What was NATO’s bluff in Ukraine? It had no obligation to provide collective defense for that state.

The air campaign against ISIS preceded the beheading of western journalists. The executions were a response to it.

Subversive actions against NATO members will be an entirely different animal. The U.S. cannot and will not risk undermining the security assurances it provides its allies. If the Baltic states were aggrandized with no response, Japan would surely increase its military spending dramatically and seek to become a nuclear weapon state. The gulf states would also seek to provide for their own security. The result would be the proliferation of multiple security dilemmas ring in strategically vital regions and many states seeking nuclear capability.[/quote]

Don’t you see the difference here?

You claim US of A began an air campaign against ISIS due to a beheading of a Western journalist.

Now, here you have a security officer of a NATO member state, kidnapped in a cross border raid and paraded on Russian TV. If that doesn’t quality as “subversive action”, I don’t know what does. I don’t see any NATO forces prepping up…

So basically Putin will continue doing whatever he wants, as long as he keeps using the “politicaly correct” terminology. He tested the waters with Ukraine, saw that there is no unity, no political will and no cohesion among NATO members (with the US of A preoccupied as always in the Middle East). He can always fall back to a German, or in more extreme case, Hungarian, Czech or Slovak vetos.

Also, Putin’s explanation for not respecting the Treaty guaranteeing Ukraine’s sovereignity was pure gold - “The government in Kiev changed”. A dangerous precedent, showing other countries what CAN happen if they renounce (or not develop) their nuclear arsenal.

And look how the West is eager to grasp at the straws he is giving them - calling the Russian invasion of Ukraine an “incursion” etc. What came from all the posturing of Rassmussen? Nothing, couple of hundred of bulletproof wests for the Ukrainians (that sad joke with non-lethal aid), and a small military exercise to help them in their despair.

The Baltic states had to frantically lobby to get even a token NATO force TEMPORARILY stationed there - a PERMANENT NATO force would be seen as a provocation, as Angela Merkel put it.

Also, I don’t see anyone mentioning MH17 anymore. More than 150 EU nationals (and NATO for that matter) have been killed by a regular Russian Army manned BUK, fighting for a paramilitary group no one mentions anymore lest they upset Putin.

So, basically your statement is moot, as the security guarantees have already been undermined, and subersive action (quietly) tolerated. We’ll see that soon, as Putin is already threatening Kazakhstan.

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[quote]loppar wrote:
(Russian Chechen mercenaries do that, but are smart enough not to post it online)
[/quote]

Your points are probably spot on, except the Chechens were posting beheading videos, (or at least video of their victims after the act) & extreme videos of torture on websites like Ogrish.com at least 10 years before the Daniel Pearl incident, so when I saw that, I wasn’t surprised.

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[quote]loppar wrote:

You claim US of A began an air campaign against ISIS due to a beheading of a Western journalist. [/quote]

No he claims the opposite.

There’s islamic revolutionaries in Kazakhstan. Do you think they’ll cause trouble like the Chechens if Putin tries anything there?

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[quote]Gkhan wrote:

No he claims the opposite.
[/quote]

My mistake, misread that.

Nah.ISIS monsters are already drawing all the crazies from all over Europe and Central Asia, including Chechens and Dagestanis. Those at least that aren’t fighting as Kadyrov mercenaries on the Russian side in Ukraine.

Due to their training in the Red Army, Chechens are very sought after as specialists/snipers, as was the case during US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As for why they’re leaving for Syria, the logic is simple - why start something new with very slim chances of success (fighting EFFICIENT totalitarian regimes is hard, and both Russia and Kazakhstan are that) when you can go to Syria or Iraq, bask in the media spotlight, murder “infidel civilians” on a daily basis or if you’re lucky, behead some unfortunate western humanitarian worker/journalist.

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[quote]bjj and w8lift wrote:
I think what alot of you are forgetting is what the current Ukrainian government is doing. For starters, they are indiscriminantly targeting civilians, their homes, hospitals, schools, orphanages, retirement homes, etc.In addition, they send no aid for civillians.

Nor do they do anything for internally displaced refugees, ie the ones who fled to other parts of Ukraine and not Russia, no aid or assistance. Nothing. Also,Natsgvardia, an all volunteer force made up of Ukrainian neo-nazi nationalists such as Right Sector(you know, the people who burned over 100 people alive in Odessa), are running amock, shooting at anything that moves. [/quote]
Where did you read this? Russian new channels? I got friends from Luhansk living in L’viv who are doing very well thank you. The government also just sent huge amounts of aid in all the areas it has reclaimed and it is funny that former rebel strongholds are flying Ukrainian flags and the locals are joining the volunteer battalions. Mariupol had tons of people waving Ukrainian flags and protesting the rebels as soon as the army got there. Sloviansk got a huge
The rebels themselves have murdered baptists,declared Russian Orthodoxy the only religion allowed, started attacking minorities, hounded everyone for money, have prison camps all over the region where they torture people. These same rebels claim that the Ukrainian army is shelling civilians, are the same rebels that denied shooting down that plane, who are the same rebels who bragged on russian social network site of their wives and children wearing the newest Dutch make up. The same rebels who happen to have many of their top leadership consisting of mafia and organized crime bosses. How come the civilian areas held by the Ukrainian army are getting shelled mercilessly? Also look at the amount of neo nazis fighting for the rebels? Also Ukraine’s Jewish community is in overwhelming support of the government over the rebels. Also watch the video of Odessa, the Pro Russians started the violence with the police helping, this is common knowledge in Odessa.
Stop watching RT, so many journalists have quit because they were sick of spewing propaganda.

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[quote]bjj and w8lift wrote:

[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Am I incorrect in my understanding that the majority of the citizens of EASTERN Ukraine actually WANT to be a part of Russia, or at the very least, independent? Didn’t they have a vote on it several months ago?[/quote]

Majority, ±50%. I don’t think civilian opinions have much weight at the moment.
[/quote]
that vote was rigged though, no international observers. Also towns that got taken by the Ukrainian army such as mariupol, you got civilians taking rifle courses, rallying at check points for ukraine and digging trenches for the Ukrainian army. but still on the flip side there still many seperatists supporters.[/quote]
The vote was back in April. That’s old news. Let’s look at now. It does not matter if they are ethnic Russian or Ukrainian, the people of eastern Ukraine have absolutely no sympathy for a government that bombs their homes, schools, and hospitals. They have no sympathy for those who killed members of their family and close friends. There’s no going back to Ukraine. Not after the atrocities they comitted. [/quote]
Why is Sloviansk blue and yellow these days and people from there volunteering to fight for Ukraine? |

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Old thread, I know, but this is pure crazy:

Chechnya offers arms to Mexico to fight United-States!

I guess they don’t have enough of ours…