What Happened in the Ukraine?

As much as I enjoy our discussions, I have neither the time nor the patience to walk you through yet another cogent post, so please read the following carefully.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

We had this discussion.

Back in April you did not believe the Russian federation would respond with nuclear weapons. You said Assured access to the Black Sea and the Mediterranean is not worth risking nuclear annihilation. [/quote]

If NATO foolishly intervened militarily in Ukraine, I do not believe that Russia would immediately respond with the use of nuclear weapons against NATO forces or its members’ respective territories. As strategically important to Russian interests as Crimea is, it is not worth the heavy losses a retaliatory nuclear strike would undoubtedly bring about. Nevertheless, as unlikely as nuclear war would be, the risks of it occurring would be exponentially greater. A conventional war could easily escalate. The costs of a military intervention would be much greater than any benefits that could be derived from it.

No, I never stated that. The language I employed was very specific. As I have asserted ad nauseam, NATO expansion presented Moscow with a SECURITY DILEMMA. This isn’t a term that I constructed. It’s one of the foundational concepts of international relations and underpins state security policies. You have yet to demonstrate a modicum of understanding the security dilemma or its dynamics. You went as far as “Of course I know what that means!” And yet, you continue your string of malapropisms with “security risk”.

Also, there is my post regarding the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances and the implications of its breach under international law.

[quote]loppar wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]loppar wrote:
John Dolan aka Gary Brecher aka War Nerd called it three years ago. Another of his predictions coming true.

Unfortunately, we in Eastern/Central Europe swallowed the false assurances from the NATO bureaucrats - “Nothing can happen once you are in NATO, we’ve got your back covered against the Russians. So don’t worry, kick back, abolish conscription and turn your national army into a glorified mobile brigade for overseas deployment in Afghanistan”
[/quote]

Ukraine is not a party to NATO.[/quote]

Yes. I am very aware of that. I am talking about Eastern European countries that joined NATO/EU in the last 15 years.

Now, the mere signing of a pre-preliminary EU cooperation treaty (Kosovo has one, for f**k sake) by Ukraine has triggered an organized, well funded insurgency followed now by an outright invasion by Russia. This means that Russia reserves the right to attempt to enforce foreign (and in many cases domestic) policy of neighboring countries, regardless of their wishes.

Eurasian Customs Union for Ukraine then.

Since the Western leaders publicly stated that they will not help militarily Ukraine, the question is where is the proverbial red line? Hybrid warfare against a NATO member state?

What if it began incrementally, like in Ukraine? Perhaps the Russian minority in Latvia may once again spontaneously organize demonstrations, demanding parity for Russian language and full citizenship? And of course, this can quickly increase to violent clashes, the sporadic arms clashes to a full blown “insurgency” followed by an “incursion”.

Would US of A or Germany go to war with Russia over Latvia?

And the genius of it is that by using the incremental approach, Putin is always giving the West an easy way to puss out, accustoming the public opinion to a new “base line”. A couple of weeks ago, the question was whether Russia was backing the “insurgents” in Ukraine. Now the question is whether the mysterious reinforcements are regular Russian Army units or - get this - soldiers on leave.

If this Russian offensive in Ukraine reaches it’s stated objective (first land bridge to Crimea, then Odessa and link to Transistria), Russia is (again) practically on Romania’s doorstep. And if Putin is your neighbor, he can be offended easily. And you know what that means.

[/quote]

I believe the red line for the use of military force would be aggression against any NATO member. Not only would NATO be severely undermined if such an action went unopposed, but all of the strategically vital security agreements between the United States and her allies as well. Think Japan and South Korea. This would likely lead to the aforementioned states seeking nuclear capability, as the U.S. nuclear umbrella would retain little if any credibility. The nascent nuclear weapon states in turn would present their regional peers with clear and present security dilemmas, which could lead to a wave of horizontal and vertical nuclear proliferation. Overall, the international political landscape would have many more fault lines upon which future conflict could erupt. International security and the global economy would stand precariously beneath a nuclear sword of damocles.

Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West?s Fault
The Liberal Delusions That Provoked Putin
By John J. Mearsheimer

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/08/28/official-2-tank-columns-from-russia-enter-ukraine/20953841/?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D521813

1000 Russian troops supported by missiles and tanks cross the border into Ukraine. The West & Nato looks weaker than ever. [/quote]

Not quite. Weakness is not qualified by being reluctant to go to war with the largest nuclear weapon state in the world over Ukraine. [/quote]

When I suggested this in April, you said Russia would not risk nuclear annihilation over the Crimean…did you suddenly change your mind?
[/quote]

No, what gives you that impression? The Russian Federation maintains the greatest quantitative nuclear arsenal in the world. Is it possible you believed I was referring to the U.S.? NATO should use force against a great power and nuclear weapons state only as a last resort when all other options have been exhausted and the interests at stake are absolutely vital. The Ukraine crisis does not qualify as such.[/quote]

So how should the west deal with Russian irredentism?
[/quote]

So…nada?

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West?s Fault
The Liberal Delusions That Provoked Putin
By John J. Mearsheimer

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141769/john-j-mearsheimer/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-the-wests-fault[/quote]

Yes, it’s all our fault. Any sovereign nation thinking about joining NATO - Georgia, Ukraine etc - constitutes an “act of aggression” in Russia’s “sphere of influence” and then should rightly be invaded and turned into a Russian vassal state. After all, Russia is entitled to something that NATO is not - a buffer zone.

Some try to argue that all Mr. Putin needs is more respect. We went too far, they say, in provoking Russia, and because of that Moscow is lashing out from a position of weakness. Why not assuage Russia?s wounded pride and give them a sphere of influence to stabilize the borders between East and West?

Mr. Putin?s answer is that he?s not interested in stability but instability. He wants to keep Ukraine in a perpetual state of unrest possibly to join other ?frozen conflicts? in Georgia, Moldova and Azerbaijan. His idea of a sphere of influence is to use force to bend a sovereign neighbor to his will. If we accept this as the ?new normal?, whether out of impatience or a misguided sense of realism, we would be tacitly recognizing Moscow?s claims for a new order in Europe.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/08/28/official-2-tank-columns-from-russia-enter-ukraine/20953841/?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D521813

1000 Russian troops supported by missiles and tanks cross the border into Ukraine. The West & Nato looks weaker than ever. [/quote]

Not quite. Weakness is not qualified by being reluctant to go to war with the largest nuclear weapon state in the world over Ukraine. [/quote]

When I suggested this in April, you said Russia would not risk nuclear annihilation over the Crimean…did you suddenly change your mind?
[/quote]

No, what gives you that impression? The Russian Federation maintains the greatest quantitative nuclear arsenal in the world. Is it possible you believed I was referring to the U.S.? NATO should use force against a great power and nuclear weapons state only as a last resort when all other options have been exhausted and the interests at stake are absolutely vital. The Ukraine crisis does not qualify as such.[/quote]

So how should the west deal with Russian irredentism?
[/quote]

So…nada?[/quote]

Sorry, I saw this and meant to respond but had several other posts which were low hanging fruit. I will return to this.

[quote]Bismark wrote:
As much as I enjoy our discussions, I have neither the time nor the patience to walk you through yet another cogent post, so please read the following carefully.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

We had this discussion.

Back in April you did not believe the Russian federation would respond with nuclear weapons. You said Assured access to the Black Sea and the Mediterranean is not worth risking nuclear annihilation. [/quote]

If NATO foolishly intervened militarily in Ukraine, I do not believe that Russia would immediately respond with the use of nuclear weapons against NATO forces or its members’ respective territories. As strategically important to Russian interests as Crimea is, it is not worth the heavy losses a retaliatory nuclear strike would undoubtedly bring about. Nevertheless, as unlikely as nuclear war would be, the risks of it occurring would be exponentially greater. A conventional war could easily escalate. The costs of a military intervention would be much greater than any benefits that could be derived from it.

No, I never stated that. The language I employed was very specific. As I have asserted ad nauseam, NATO expansion presented Moscow with a SECURITY DILEMMA. This isn’t a term that I constructed. It’s one of the foundational concepts of international relations and underpins state security policies. You have yet to demonstrate a modicum of understanding the security dilemma or its dynamics. You went as far as “Of course I know what that means!” And yet, you continue your string of malapropisms with “security risk”.[/quote]

Yet, this security dilemma and risk of total nuclear annihilation has not prevented the Russians to invade Ukraine. If they feared the West in the least, they wouldn’t have made a move. That is my point. I understand why the West does not want to attack Russia yet it makes them look weak.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]loppar wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]loppar wrote:
John Dolan aka Gary Brecher aka War Nerd called it three years ago. Another of his predictions coming true.

Unfortunately, we in Eastern/Central Europe swallowed the false assurances from the NATO bureaucrats - “Nothing can happen once you are in NATO, we’ve got your back covered against the Russians. So don’t worry, kick back, abolish conscription and turn your national army into a glorified mobile brigade for overseas deployment in Afghanistan”
[/quote]

Ukraine is not a party to NATO.[/quote]

Yes. I am very aware of that. I am talking about Eastern European countries that joined NATO/EU in the last 15 years.

Now, the mere signing of a pre-preliminary EU cooperation treaty (Kosovo has one, for f**k sake) by Ukraine has triggered an organized, well funded insurgency followed now by an outright invasion by Russia. This means that Russia reserves the right to attempt to enforce foreign (and in many cases domestic) policy of neighboring countries, regardless of their wishes.

Eurasian Customs Union for Ukraine then.

Since the Western leaders publicly stated that they will not help militarily Ukraine, the question is where is the proverbial red line? Hybrid warfare against a NATO member state?

What if it began incrementally, like in Ukraine? Perhaps the Russian minority in Latvia may once again spontaneously organize demonstrations, demanding parity for Russian language and full citizenship? And of course, this can quickly increase to violent clashes, the sporadic arms clashes to a full blown “insurgency” followed by an “incursion”.

Would US of A or Germany go to war with Russia over Latvia?

And the genius of it is that by using the incremental approach, Putin is always giving the West an easy way to puss out, accustoming the public opinion to a new “base line”. A couple of weeks ago, the question was whether Russia was backing the “insurgents” in Ukraine. Now the question is whether the mysterious reinforcements are regular Russian Army units or - get this - soldiers on leave.

If this Russian offensive in Ukraine reaches it’s stated objective (first land bridge to Crimea, then Odessa and link to Transistria), Russia is (again) practically on Romania’s doorstep. And if Putin is your neighbor, he can be offended easily. And you know what that means.

[/quote]

I believe the red line for the use of military force would be aggression against any NATO member. Not only would NATO be severely undermined if such an action went unopposed, but all of the strategically vital security agreements between the United States and her allies as well. Think Japan and South Korea. This would likely lead to the aforementioned states seeking nuclear capability, as the U.S. nuclear umbrella would retain little if any credibility. The nascent nuclear weapon states in turn would present their regional peers with clear and present security dilemmas, which could lead to a wave of horizontal and vertical nuclear proliferation. Overall, the international political landscape would have many more fault lines upon which future conflict could erupt. International security and the global economy would stand precariously beneath a nuclear sword of damocles.[/quote]

It seems like an illusionary nuclear sword of Damocles…Damocles, it’s a name, it should be capitalized. The Ukraine situation proves the West doesn’t have to fortitude to mess with Russia and Putin knows it.

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West?s Fault
The Liberal Delusions That Provoked Putin
By John J. Mearsheimer

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141769/john-j-mearsheimer/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-the-wests-fault[/quote]

The West may have provoked Putin, but it did not obviously scare him.

Ukraine wants NATO membership.

Won’t happen.

Too late, they’re already in a war with Russia, NATO will not have the balls to include them.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
As much as I enjoy our discussions, I have neither the time nor the patience to walk you through yet another cogent post, so please read the following carefully.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

We had this discussion.

Back in April you did not believe the Russian federation would respond with nuclear weapons. You said Assured access to the Black Sea and the Mediterranean is not worth risking nuclear annihilation. [/quote]

If NATO foolishly intervened militarily in Ukraine, I do not believe that Russia would immediately respond with the use of nuclear weapons against NATO forces or its members’ respective territories. As strategically important to Russian interests as Crimea is, it is not worth the heavy losses a retaliatory nuclear strike would undoubtedly bring about. Nevertheless, as unlikely as nuclear war would be, the risks of it occurring would be exponentially greater. A conventional war could easily escalate. The costs of a military intervention would be much greater than any benefits that could be derived from it.

No, I never stated that. The language I employed was very specific. As I have asserted ad nauseam, NATO expansion presented Moscow with a SECURITY DILEMMA. This isn’t a term that I constructed. It’s one of the foundational concepts of international relations and underpins state security policies. You have yet to demonstrate a modicum of understanding the security dilemma or its dynamics. You went as far as “Of course I know what that means!” And yet, you continue your string of malapropisms with “security risk”.[/quote]

Yet, this security dilemma and risk of total nuclear annihilation has not prevented the Russians to invade Ukraine. If they feared the West in the least, they wouldn’t have made a move. That is my point. I understand why the West does not want to attack Russia yet it makes them look weak. [/quote]

You still don’t understand. NATO enlargement presented Moscow with a security dilemma. Russia’s fear of a fortress Ukraine in the NATO orbit incentivized it to invade. Historically, Russia desires a buffer zone. A devastating retaliatory nuclear attack would only reasonably take place if Russia itself used nuclear weapons first.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]loppar wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]loppar wrote:
John Dolan aka Gary Brecher aka War Nerd called it three years ago. Another of his predictions coming true.

Unfortunately, we in Eastern/Central Europe swallowed the false assurances from the NATO bureaucrats - “Nothing can happen once you are in NATO, we’ve got your back covered against the Russians. So don’t worry, kick back, abolish conscription and turn your national army into a glorified mobile brigade for overseas deployment in Afghanistan”
[/quote]

Ukraine is not a party to NATO.[/quote]

Yes. I am very aware of that. I am talking about Eastern European countries that joined NATO/EU in the last 15 years.

Now, the mere signing of a pre-preliminary EU cooperation treaty (Kosovo has one, for f**k sake) by Ukraine has triggered an organized, well funded insurgency followed now by an outright invasion by Russia. This means that Russia reserves the right to attempt to enforce foreign (and in many cases domestic) policy of neighboring countries, regardless of their wishes.

Eurasian Customs Union for Ukraine then.

Since the Western leaders publicly stated that they will not help militarily Ukraine, the question is where is the proverbial red line? Hybrid warfare against a NATO member state?

What if it began incrementally, like in Ukraine? Perhaps the Russian minority in Latvia may once again spontaneously organize demonstrations, demanding parity for Russian language and full citizenship? And of course, this can quickly increase to violent clashes, the sporadic arms clashes to a full blown “insurgency” followed by an “incursion”.

Would US of A or Germany go to war with Russia over Latvia?

And the genius of it is that by using the incremental approach, Putin is always giving the West an easy way to puss out, accustoming the public opinion to a new “base line”. A couple of weeks ago, the question was whether Russia was backing the “insurgents” in Ukraine. Now the question is whether the mysterious reinforcements are regular Russian Army units or - get this - soldiers on leave.

If this Russian offensive in Ukraine reaches it’s stated objective (first land bridge to Crimea, then Odessa and link to Transistria), Russia is (again) practically on Romania’s doorstep. And if Putin is your neighbor, he can be offended easily. And you know what that means.

[/quote]

I believe the red line for the use of military force would be aggression against any NATO member. Not only would NATO be severely undermined if such an action went unopposed, but all of the strategically vital security agreements between the United States and her allies as well. Think Japan and South Korea. This would likely lead to the aforementioned states seeking nuclear capability, as the U.S. nuclear umbrella would retain little if any credibility. The nascent nuclear weapon states in turn would present their regional peers with clear and present security dilemmas, which could lead to a wave of horizontal and vertical nuclear proliferation. Overall, the international political landscape would have many more fault lines upon which future conflict could erupt. International security and the global economy would stand precariously beneath a nuclear sword of damocles.[/quote]

It seems like an illusionary nuclear sword of Damocles…Damocles, it’s a name, it should be capitalized. The Ukraine situation proves the West doesn’t have to fortitude to mess with Russia and Putin knows it.[/quote]

How is it illusionary? The American nuclear umbrella has been very successful in preventing horizontal nuclear proliferation. If its credibility was irreparably harmed, American allies would seriously contemplate and very likely pursue nuclear capability themselves to deter aggression. Yes, as a proper noun it should be capitalized. Writing on my phone isn’t always conducive to grammar. Regardless, I hardly need constructive criticism from someone who expresses his geopolitical pontifications as vulgarly as yourself.

Bottom line, fear of NATO intervention or Western intervention in Ukraine did not stop Russia from invading. Russia’s fear of a fortress Ukraine in the NATO obit did not prevent it from invading now did it? And because it did not, the West looks weak.

Would you say Russia looks weak? Maybe has an inferiority complex, but weak, no way.

If the West looks strong losing a potential ally and E.U. member to the Russian orbit, how so?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Bottom line, fear of NATO intervention or Western intervention in Ukraine did not stop Russia from invading. Russia’s fear of a fortress Ukraine in the NATO obit did not prevent it from invading now did it? And because it did not, the West looks weak.

Would you say Russia looks weak? Maybe has an inferiority complex, but weak, no way.

If the West looks strong losing a potential ally and E.U. member to the Russian orbit, how so?[/quote]

Jesus Christ, I will not continue this discussion if you continue to ignore my posts outright.

“You still don’t understand. NATO enlargement presented Moscow with a security dilemma. Russia’s fear of a fortress Ukraine in the NATO orbit incentivized it to invade. Historically, maintaining a buffer zone had been a vital Russian interest. A devastating retaliatory nuclear attack would only reasonably take place if Russia itself used nuclear weapons first.”

What good are buffer zones in a world of ICBMs, Tomahawks, B-2’s, B-1B 's, B-52’s , and attack drones?

Russia wants to expand to it’s old 18th century empire conquered by Catherine the Great.

http://www.redstate.com/2014/03/20/vladimir-putins-objectives-new-russian-empire-crushing-nato/

Putin is grabbing up Slavic Lebensraum paralleling Hitler’s gobbling up of Austria, the Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia, & Poland prior to WWII. Hitler wanted to restore Germany to it’s pre-Treaty of Versailles borders. Putin wants to restore Russia to it’s Soviet Union boundaries.

He’s even using the same excuse. Hitler accused the Poles of persecuting Germans living in Poland. Putin is accusing the Ukrainians of persecuting Russians speaking people living in Ukraine.

And

You fail to address my posts outright as well:

If the West is afraid to act because of nuclear M.A.D. why isn’t Putin worried about it?

If the West is not going to risk M.A.D. over the Ukraine, as you have stated, why is the West not helping Ukraine conventionally?

If this somehow makes the West look strong and Russia look weak, please explain how?

[quote]Bismark wrote:

I believe the red line for the use of military force would be aggression against any NATO member. [/quote]

What constitutes use of military force? As some pundits discovered, Western policy thinks in terms of black and white, while Putin is the unparalleled master of grey.

Did you know that in all three Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) there are pro-Russian parties lavishly funded by the Kremlin? They are usually small and cater to the Russian minorities.

I am sure they’ve already got the potential “separatist government” candidates ready.

Here’s an article from 2007, about Russian riots in Estonia. Did you notice a pattern?

Putin, after discovering on the example of Ukraine that he can pretty much do whatever he wants, can apply the eastern Ukraine scenario to Estonia and consequently other Baltic states.

And where would the West draw the red line if the hybrid conflict escalated along the Russian-lead scenario - demonstrations, riots and then formation of a pro-Russian militia.

There isn’t a watershed moment here to start a military intervention, because the situation is simply very gradually evolving to Russia’s benefit.

NATO would be “concerned” if the Russian minority forms its own militia, “deeply concerned” if Russia provides non-military and later military aid…

“Ok, we’re gonna start a war because this time regular Russian army units have crossed the border because they haven’t painted over their insignia so it’s an invasion not an incursion.” - not gonna happen.

Also, I am amazed how Western leaders are afraid to use the term “invasion”. One APC or a group of border guards crossing the border is an incursion, a 100 or so tanks pretty much constitutes an invasion.

loppar, what will it take for the West to try and stop Russia? An incursion into, rebellion in or the fall of the Baltic States? Do you think N.A.T.O. should be arming Ukraine conventionally? Why does the West seem weak and Russia moves unchecked? Both sides are nuclear armed. Wouldn’t both sides be afraid of war? Do you agree with Bismark, that the West caused this problem by moving too close to the Ukraine? Or do you think Putin wants to build an empire? What should the West’s response be?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
loppar, what will it take for the West to try and stop Russia? An incursion into, rebellion in or the fall of the Baltic States? Do you think N.A.T.O. should be arming Ukraine conventionally? Why does the West seem weak and Russia moves unchecked? Both sides are nuclear armed. Wouldn’t both sides be afraid of war? Do you agree with Bismark, that the West caused this problem by moving too close to the Ukraine? Or do you think Putin wants to build an empire? What should the West’s response be?[/quote]

Putin is simply exploiting US weakness and the fragility of European countries who are preoccupied with their internal problems - whether their GDP will grow or contract from one semester to the next and the levels of youth unemployment.

Also, as a former KGB spook he is master of divide-and-rule, or even divide-and-bribe, as all decisions by the super-bureaucratic, inept EU have to be reached by consensus. Presidents of Slovakia and Hungary are pretty much bought (Orban is on the payroll),as well as many lobbyists and former prime ministers and presidents (think former German chancellor Schroeder) and France is blackmailed by the purchase of the Mistral class amphibious assault ships.

Think about that for a second - an aggressive, quasi-totalitarian country is invading a sovereign country at your doorstep and threatens that if you even impose even token measures, they will not buy any more weapons from you (!)

Not to mention the vested interests of large corporations who are actively lobbying against trade sanctions - Europe is in a deep recession and every Russian (or Saudi/Qatari for that matter) oil dollar counts.

Now before everybody starts blaming Obama, it is not (only) his fault. Iraq and Afghanistan have pretty much sapped any will in the US of A for foreign adventures. Even the nightmare that is ISIS is drawing a “reluctant” response and no-one has any coherent idea how to proceed here.

So neither EU nor NATO have any stomach to deal with Russia. After all, it is only Eastern Europe.

I am guessing the first alarm bells would be rung at the gates of Warsaw, as the Poles are ethnically homogenous, strongly anti-Russian, pro-USA and have a booming economy. So you could not play the “oppressed Russian minority” card. Baltics would be pretty much written off.

Don’t forget that the Poles prevented Europe from being overrun by the Red Army in 1920 and no-one in Europe even cared for more than a few weeks.

Actually, that was the first use of “hybrid” warfare - first, socialist revolutions in Germany, Hungary, then attempts to establish “Soviet Republic of Germany” etc. and then the Red Army would ride to the rescue to same the oppressed proletariat.

That was the plan anyway, read about it. Fascinating stuff.