“It looks like we are heading towards a police state and Fascism over here.”
So Lumpy, just leave while you still can. A friend of mine just came back from Burkina Faso. It sounds like a place you might have a shot at being happy living in. On second thought, that place probably doesn’t exist for you…at least on Earth. How sad.
iscariot,
Thanks for the revealing response. I don’t know why you think it’s necessary to continually make my point about you. You are already firmly established as a bad person.
I have already quoted you as saying that you think the United States is a terrorist nation. This gives everyone here a valuable insight into your feelings. Everything you say has to be viewed in relation to this statement. There is where the “I hate the U.S.” comes into it.
As for the rest of your post, I am simply baffled by your associations and assumptions. So baffled, that I went back and re-read my recent posts. Unfortunately for you, my little nz virtuoso of intelligence, nowhere did I make the insinuations that you attribute to me. Instead of proving your superior intelligence, your attempt to “extrapolate” my words into something totally unrelated shows a fundamental lack of logical thinking. Further, I always state my thoughts very clearly. Unambiguous language is a sign of true intelligence. People who use double-meanings and try to act erudite are usually the people who have the most to prove. They usually have inferiority complexes and need to put on a show to fool people into believing that they have intrinsic worth. iscariot, I’m not fooled by you.
iscariot, I’ll give you a chance to sink further into the abyss of bad guys. Remember, as of today, you haven’t shown yourself to be quite as bad as restless and adal. Please answer these questions directly. No double-talk or horseshit will do. 1. What was the United States’ number one reason for invading Iraq? (Note: I said number one). 2. If the United States leaves Iraq with a popularly elected Democratic government, will you acknowledge that we practice what we preach? 3. Do you think saddam should still be in power today? If you answer no, are you capable of thanking the United States and our Allies for removing him? 4. Do you think saddam was a threat to his region and by extension to the world in general?
lumpy, you are sinking further into the moral sludge with every response you make. I am pleased that everyone (except the bad guys like iscariot) denounces you in the harshest possible terms. Please read Avoids Roids’ post. It gives you a game plan with destination included. Get going!!!
Wow. Manichaeus would be proud…
Notes:
[1] Assuming the damn forum lets me post
[2] With apologies to cupcake - I
couldn’t help myself 
Combining a few responses here as I have to go train.
Mage
Then Iscariot stating, “…whom I feel have been less than truthful in their full accounting of personal/ professed agendas.” You feel? You don’t know? Just feel? Lets deal with facts, not just what a person feels.
[1] That argument wouldn’t wash with a christian. PROVE the existence of God?
People feel, people have faith. There’s no strictly empirical evidence that God exists - burning bushes aside.
[1a] So what you’re telling me is that
if you can’t prove something by fact then you can’t say it?
“The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” Einstein.
Also, do you seriously believe that the US Govt, or any government for that matter, is going to admit to those actions or motivations that would cast their actions in a bad light? D’uh.
This is called spin/ propaganda etc.
Do I think the US went in to get Saddam, yes. Do I think that’s the only reason, no - is the US going to admit to the less savoury reasons? Feh.
Mage
Interesting. I went back and tried to find the illogical argument you were talking about, and couldn’t find anything related to what you said. Nothing matched this supposed logic argument.
Hello, inductive reasoning.
US=GG has continually propagated the line that anyone is is strongly patriotic and strongly US is OK in his book.
As a personal opinion, that is fine, and worthy of respect. What is less worthy of respect is the assumption that any one who disagrees with that is bad.
What I was showing, by analogy, is that using such definitions is faulty.
Mage
Also the KKK are not very patriotic. Many want the government overthrown, and want the confederacy back.
Do you remember a previous discussion I had with my esteemed colleague, cupcake? In discussing the definition and concept of patriotism we agreed that largely it is interpretational.
The KKK would probably argue that they are very ‘pro-american and patriotic’ and their actions prove it.
Mage Please also note, there is nothing in the definition of patriotism that refers to agreeing or supporting the government of the time.
So, again, logical induction. If a criteria per US=GG for being a good guy is being pro-USA and patriotic then the KKK can qualify. [Then I got a bit silly, but I was bored]
The whole point was that saying that I am bad becasue I don’t fit US=GG’s criteria for a good guy is ridiculous because using those criteria allows people far worse than me to be ostensible “Good Guys”.
Geddit?
Moving on.
Now, MaestroU
SA=GG [Hope that worked]
Where do I start?
<fontcolor=“ff11ff”>US=GG
I have already quoted you as saying that you think the United States is a terrorist nation.
No, you quoted me saying the US needs to look after it’s own house first. If you have groups/ people like those that initiated the Oklahoma incident, shouldn’t you be cleaning your own house first?
<fontcolor=“ff11ff”>US=GG
Further, I always state my thoughts very clearly. Unambiguous language is a sign of true intelligence.
Heh.
Well, there goes most of the philosophical canon for Western Civilisation.
Language, when you get down to it is language; atleast in the sense that all words have meaning.
You use the language and the systems you know, to express yourself.
This makes no one right, wrong, better or more intelligent.
<fontcolor=“ff11ff”>US=GG
snip Blah Blah inferiority complexes
… iscariot, I’m not fooled by you.
But you’re doing so well…
I have to admit I am absolutely enthralled, however, with you on the one hand, castigating me for using terms and phrases you find confusing and then engaging in amatuer psycho-analysis
OK, I’m going to humour you here
1. What was the United States’ number one reason for invading Iraq? (Note: I said number one)
Honestly? I don’t know. I don’t believe it was to liberate the Iraqi people though.
2. If the United States leaves Iraq with a popularly elected Democratic government, will you acknowledge that we practice what we preach?
You see, this presents a problem.
Sure, if the US installs a Western Style democracy in Iraq they have done what they’ve said.
BUT
[a] Who says a Western Style democracy is best for Iraq?
[b] Is it what the people want - the Iraqis’ that is.
[c] What if the Iraqis’ want a religious government, a theocracy, and they still get the WSD.
See US=GG - I don’t believe it’s black and white, you do. We differ.
3a. Do you think saddam should still be in power today?
Difficult question.
Am I glad he’s gone? Yes but, your question implies a whole lot of other things.
Saddam wasn’t elected. Bloodless coup iirc, so from a western democratic perspective bad. But then, a lot of kings aren’t elected either.
Was Saddam a despot? Indisputably
Essentially your question asks me to apply Western Style values to something that is not my - for want of a better term - business.
From our persepctive, he’s bad, but you also have to remember that Iraq was a prosperous, secular, modernised country before the embargoes - so from the perspective of a lot of iraqis, things were probably good - even if they were terrified
4. Do you think saddam was a threat to his region and by extension to the world in general?
After DS1, no. There were/are far more malevolent entities out there who are of far greater concern, which leades me back to questioning “Why Iraq?”
interesting
Now, off to train.
A Theocracy is not what Iraq needs. There is already too much tension between the Shiites and Sunnis. A theocratic government would just suppress the other part of the muslim sects. A democracy would try not to involve religion in the government, although it is inevitable.
iscariot,
After reading your post, I’ve decided that not only are you bad (untruthful, Anti-American, etc…) but you have a real problem with taking a stand. Talking to you is like trying to grab a handful of air.
Your post made me laugh. I’ve rarely seen paragraphs so full of hidden meanings and double-talk. I think it would be an exaggeration to declare that I am fascinated by you. I would put it no higher than puzzled. Your thought machinations are trully bizarre. I don’t understand how you actually make it through a workout. Do you do a combination of yoga/accupuncture/herbaltherapies/shuffleboard/golf/hypnosis and call it a day? I just cannot imagine you having to go in and lift a weight. I would love to see your face when you couldn’t manage to lift a weight. Most people would say, “Ok, I’m not strong enough. Therefore, I need to work harder.” Your mind probably is full of things like, “I really lifted the weight. It’s all a matter of context.”
What is this crap about not understanding your phrases? Good God, any fool could look up a list of synonyms and then type in the most “erudite” word he can find. Any village idiot can read a few phrases and declare himself a convert of tao. The proof of intelligence is what conclusions you draw. It’s how you synthesize the available information.
You hide behind interpretation. Take a stand. My God, it doesn’t matter what culture you are from, the wood chipper IS BAD!!! There is no interpretation needed. I wholeheartedly disagree with you that Iraq’s ultimate form of government is not your “business.” Fine, you live on a tiny island just north of Antarctica. Yes, no one is really interested in bombing Wellington. It must be comforting to know that the United States will take a stand and fight evil. You really don’t have to do anything. We don’t have that luxury. We have been brutually attacked. We don’t have the option of detachment. However, I would think that basic human decency is everyone’s “business.” Raping wives in front of their husbands, killing the husbands, and then letting the wife go free was a favorite form of punishment of the former regime. Unless, you suffer from antisocial personality disorder, that should disturb you somewhat.
Please read your exact quote under your “bad guys” post. I copied it for you. You called the United States terrorists. Please look it up. Re-read it. Type in iscariot in the search engine and look for yourself.
You are dead wrong here “From our persepctive, he’s bad, but you also have to remember that Iraq was a prosperous, secular, modernised country before the embargoes - so from the perspective of a lot of iraqis, things were probably good - even if they were terrified :)” First of all, they were prosperous BEFORE Saddam. Read your history. The embargo applied after 1991, only highlighted the fact that saddam used his country’s resources for his own aggrandizement at the expense of his people. “things were probably good” comment just about stuns me into silence. That is as cold-blooded as you have ever been iscariot. Do you have any news down there in nz? Aren’t you aware of what the Iraqi exiles have been saying?
“Why Iraq?” Terrorists (see the reports of the prominent terrorists we have already caught), see also the pictures of planes crashing into the World Trade Centers in saddams palace!!! Weapons of mass destruction with the will to use them. See history of saddams regime. Oh, we will find them. Don’t you worry your little head, iscariot. I can’t wait to hear you and the rest of the bad guys accuse us of planting the evidence.
I challenge you to read the whole post. Think about what I have said.
Wow, no technical difficulties today – I can actually post. Anyway, I would like to go off on a small tangent based upon something Iscariot (I’ll give him the benefit of a capital letter even if he denies it to himself) pointed out: Sanctions don’t work.
When have sanctions ever accomplished anything other than the impoverishment of the citizenry? It is a given the more brutal the dictatorship, the more effective it will be in concentrating the resources of a country to itself. Therefore, the administration doesn’t suffer during an embargo – Saddam had his palaces and his weapons, and the people starved. Sanctions have never adversely affected Castro’s standard of living.
However, military action IS effective in dealing with such regimes. To the extent they are threats, and must therefore be contained/removed, it stands to reason that once diplomacy has failed, military action is the most logical choice for containing/removing the threat. I don’t know that most people who are perceptive enough to admit that sanctions do not work are willing to take that next step in the analysis.
That was the calculus under which the U.S. was operating: diplomacy had failed, given that Iraq had expelled inspectors and was in violation of multiple resolutions that it behave itself; sanctions weren’t doing anything other than impoverish that part of the country not responsible for the misbehavior; and Iraq, for multiple reasons, was viewed as a viable threat to U.S. security. Irrespective of the nice side benefits of freedom for the Iraqis and upholding human rights, which were great but do not motivate us to invade Central Africa, for example, the U.S. was acting in its national interest to neutralize a threat by taking out Hussein, and the military option was the most effective, most viable way to do so.
Anyway, that’s my piece. Sorry for the digression – I and the three gin and tonics I had after work just wanted to say that.
How the FUCK did I end up in the "Hell Yeah War:-)! thread…coulda swore this was “What are your thoughts?”
This crazy site gets weirder everyday.
Haven’t we been here before? Haven’t we done this already?This road looks God Damn familiar and I gotta say I think it heads NOWHERE!
This argument is:
A) Not Funny
B) Not Clever
C) Not Enlightening
D) Not even an interesting/entertaining “Debate”, the refusal of all to adopt the necessary “point given, point taken contest of intellect” drags it down to a simple schoolyard spat that is WASTING VALUABLE BANDWIDTH!
For Christ’s sake, there are children in Africa who don’t have any bandwidth and this is how you treat yours? WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN??!!
Sure food would be nice but what the hell good is a bowl of rice when you can’t surf for 'netporn? I am sure all the bleeding hearted Sally Struthers out there might think otherwise but if I can’t waste an evening forwarding “You know you’re from Saskatchewan when…” jokes then I think I’ll just have to pass on dinner too…As a matter of fact, until all of you man-up, stretch your nut sacks out and bring this to a higher level, I’m not gonna eat. Well, except for this Protein Powder.
And this Chicken.
And this Broccoli
And this Oatmeal
And this All-Natural Peanut Butter
And these Steaks…
But that’s it DAMNIT!
No food shall pass my lips, “THIS IS A HUNGER STRIKE FOR HUMOUR!”
All of you guys have the necessary intelligence to put on a hell of a show for us, to demonstrate acrobatic feats of debating acumen but for shits sake, there is no such thing as an interesting pissing match so for your fellow T-men who read this PLEASE put your thinking caps on and stop wasting Bandwidth.
And could you hurry it up, I’m getting hungry.
“I dream of an Africa which is in peace with itself”
~ Nelson Mandela
Hardly.
I crafted a rather nice response to Lumpy’s views about our conflict with Iraq; essentially a short piece on nation-building, and the benefit thereof. Never saw the light of day.
DI
US=GG, I love you. Ever thought about a comedy career?
Before I respond to any of your alleged points, I want to clarify a few things.
I think that’s about it. I wasn’t sure how to phrase the whole village idiot adn words thing but it came down to something like, I don’t really know what the words mean - right?
So thats eight personal insults, none of them accurate, but hey, I enjoyed reading them
So, now, your …err…points.
The proof of intelligence is what conclusions you draw.
Even if you’re wrong huh?
You hide behind interpretation.
No, I consider interpetation important. You, have your interpration and that’s it. Personally, I think there is merit and interest in all interpretations - that’s how you learn.
the wood chipper IS BAD!!! There is no interpretation needed.
Which I believe I actually said, but it would appear you missed in your endeavor to create ever more interesting insults.
blah blah NZ safe…It must be comforting to know that the United States will take a stand and fight evil. You really don’t have to do anything.
Well on a per capita basis would you like to put up US losses vs NZ losses in the various wars?
Also, define evil: seriously, I’d be interested. Prove to me that evil is not [a] subjective {b)interpreatational
valid in all ways…
However, I would think that basic human decency is everyone’s “business.”
Everyone is guilty of atrocities. The British, The Americans, The Iraqis, The New Zealanders. The thing is,power corrupts, and in an absolute state, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Fortunately, the Western democratic process has some [but increasinly less] checks and balances and madmen are halted - but the same standard applies.
Please note that this doesn’t make it acceptable.
First of all, they were prosperous BEFORE Saddam.
And prosperous during his regime too. That is, the standard of living didn’t decrease - although the chance of living did. De-contextualise for a minute, SAddam’s brutality and cruelty did not destroy the infrastructure , in fact, it appears to have been maintained. Now look at somewhere like Iran, the Mullahs took over and the country fell to bits.
Weapons of mass destruction with the will to use them.
Have they actually found any yet? This time, I mean?
I can’t wait to hear you and the rest of the bad guys accuse us of planting the evidence.
It would depend what the evidence was, where it was found, how anomalous it looked etc. For example, if 500 litres of Sarin turned up in the middle of Baghdad I’d think something very fishy was going on. You say I hide behind interpretation, I would rather look at the evidence and interpret it to make my mind up. I don’t swallow everything I’m told.
cheers
Hey Iscariot, glad you are using the old tactic of bringing in everything completely unrelated to the argument. I have seen Ancient Rome brought into this argument, the Dark Ages, Israel, Syria, and now modern belief in Christianity. I thought this was supposed to be a political thread, not a theological one. If you are going to say that feelings are enough, then logic can be completely thrown out of any argument.
And if you are going to Quote Einstein then please understand what he is saying. He didn’t say that feelings were enough, or that it made a logical argument. It only means that if there is no evidence against a theory, then lack of evidence does not prove it false. Your statement is about feelings. (Using your logic) I could say, “I feel you secretly work for terrorists, and will only lie about this here.”
This “feeling” argument is outside of logic, unless you “feel” it isn’t. Also I am an Atheist, as stated before, but I wont tell people not to believe because the Einstein statement is correct in that area. A supreme being cannot be proven not to exist right now, or proven to exist, so the logic follows that it is a possibility.
There is no problem with disagreeing with the stance and actions of the government, but I see the problem with people coming up with bs arguments, and completely ignoring the facts, preferring to follow their “feelings” instead. Your analogy was faulty.
As far as the KKK, obviously if you and cupcake (Sorry Mr. Cake) decided it before then I must be forced to agree because once you have discussed it that is the final word on the issue. I don’t care if it was discussed or not, anyone who hates people of their own government, and is unhappy that the South lost a war against America one and a half centuries ago, and has connections with Neo-Nazi groups who are unhappy Germany lost the war against America 60 years ago, are not patriots. Here is a definition of a patriot form the Marriam-Webster online dictionary:
Main Entry: pa?tri?ot
Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&t, -"?t, chiefly British 'pa-trE-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French patriote compatriot, from Late Latin patriota, from Greek patriOtEs, from patria lineage, from patr-, patEr father
Date: 1605
: one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests
Do you support its authority and interests? This will define weather you are patriotic or not. One simple answer.
Geddit?
Cupcake:
Boobies
Yes Cupcake, I said Boobies.
Grin
See, thats GOOD!..I propose a new rule, all posts on this thread MUST END WITH “BOOBIES”!
The more gifted of you may choose another derogatory term for Funbags at your discretion.
That will increase the readability factor to a suitable level. At least for me.
Thanks Mage…
“We are all gifted. That is our inheritance”
~ Ethel Waters
I have the biggest penis here. I win the boobies.
Mage - thanks for the excellent response See, this is what we’re after - debate
Hey Iscariot, glad you are using the old tactic of bringing in everything completely unrelated to the argument.
I agree with you that people on both sides over the various debatesd have thrown in all sorts of things; obviously you consider this a “tactic”, and non-valid, correct?
See the thing is, I disagree, so long as the reference you are making can be shown to be valid to the argument in question - certainly others may or may not disagree as to that validity.
What you do have to be wary of is falling into anachronism - I’m sure you’ll agree? Hopefully
[Ack - my keyboard’s being a shit - forgive the typos - note to self: clean keyboard]
I thought this was supposed to be a political thread, not a theological one.
puzzled It didn’t become theological.
I merely used the belief in God - which cannot be proved empirically, as analogous to believing that a series of actions may be so, despite the fact that the evidence for such beliefs may not be present.
Remember, information on government actions is not always available immediately - state secrets etc [Really, I’m not trying to sound like a conspiracy theorist]. We may never know the entire story on certain events for that reason - all I was suggesting was that we don’t have the full story.
Can I categorically prove it, no.
But, that doesn’t mean I am not allowed to have my suspicions. You’ll recall that I’ve said I don’t think the US Govt is being entirely truthful - it may well be that they are and as soon as they give me access to every transcript of every document of every conversation that took place i’ll be more than happy to admit to their beneficence[sp] and good will.
If you are going to say that feelings are enough, then logic can be completely thrown out of any argument.
I disagree. You can logically prove why you hold certain feelings - just because you are basing you conclusions on what may be a false premise doesn’t entail that the conclusion drawn on the basis on that premise is false. Logica is about process, not necessarily the information that goes into the process.
And if you are going to Quote Einstein then please understand what he is saying. He didn’t say that feelings were enough, or that it made a logical argument. It only means that if there is no evidence against a theory, then lack of evidence does not prove it false. Your statement is about feelings.
As explained above - I know AE didn’t relate it specifically to feelings, but he was talking about the existence of God. If you accept the causal chain I was tendering, I was merely showing that the lack of evidence doesn’t necessitate that a ‘feeling’ automatically is invalidated.
You may feel this chain is tenuous [hell, I feel it is tenuous] but I don’t have asll day to go and find better analogies - so we’ll just ahve to live with it
Sorry - have to go and do shopping, or stay here and get gutted by the missus :)[Actually I like shopping,so sue me] Would you care to carry this on privately? I would. Personally, I feel this is getting more into stuff that is completely irrelevant to the Forum at large. US=GG, that goes for you too, provided you can keep a civil tongue in your head grin
Cupcake - Boobies.
See, look how much better this is, nice, civil, intelligent debate…
C’mon everyone, over to my house for Snapple!
Boobies
“All intelligent thoughts have already been thought; what is necessary is only to try to think them again”
~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Pink Canoes and Nipples!!!
Iscariot, re your point about democracy maybe not being what the Iraquis want, and us forcing it down their throats.
Good point. However, the cool thing about democracy is that it can be voted out of office.
So if the Iraquis really wanted a king, a dictator or whatever other form of government they think would be better than democracy, they could vote for it. And so long as the election wasn’t rigged in some way, no one would say a word. Not even Bush.
See, this is why America promotes democracy. It’s because it gives you the most choice of any really viable form of government. From democracy, you can go in any political direction that you like. But it’s interesting to note that in the two or three centuries that modern democracies have been in place, no country (at least that I’m aware of) has exercised its power to vote in some other form of government that it thought was better.
So if you’re going to claim that the Iraquis - or anyone else for that matter - don’t really want democracy, I say, “Let’s wait and see”. 'Cause the record everywhere else is pretty clear.
US=GG=Jingoist?
Cupcake I don’t have to say “boobies” too, do i? Can I just say “bollocks” instead?
JWright said,
I’ve been to Okinawa!!! It was beautiful, and people there loved the Americans.
I know this reply is late but Ive been having trouble posting. I cannot agree with that. I went to Okinawa with my girlfriend(japanese) and felt quite uneasy.
To anyone that doesnt know any better I would easily have been mistaken for a marine (buzz cut and muscles) when I was in Okinawa and I noticed a lot of people staring at me and looking down at my girlfirend for walking hand in hand with me.
Okinawa and the U.S armed service have quite a checkered history to say the least.
1945, During the american landings in Okinawa three soldiers repeatedly raped local villagers at a small village they found whilst on a exploratory foray. The villagers eventually had enough and stoned them to death. They buried their remains in a cave only for them to be found in 1998.
1995, 12 year old school girl gang raped by three marines
July 2000, Marine charged with molesting a 14 year old girl
January 2000, Marine lifts 16 year old girls skirt to take photos
August 2001, Marine charged with raping a girl outside a night club.
One marine caught firing a BB gun at a pizza delivery boy.
One marine set fire to a car.
One marine sentenced to 5 years for repeated arson attacks on stores.
Okinawans have come to detest and hate the military presence although some could argue that its unjustified as the soldiers make up only 4% of the population and have committed only 1.7% of the crimes between 1972 and 2001. Whilst there have not been a massive amount of incidents the nature of the crimes and the fact that they have mostly been committed by African American service men has led to sensationalist headlines for the newspapers. Such events are just fuel for the already burning fire.
cupcake,
Your description of me as a jingoist is too harsh. Here are my thoughts. I believe deeply in the United States and her ideals. I have very little tolerance for American citizens who criticize the United States without having the intestinal fortitude to participate in the democratic process. All Americans should vote. You have a right not to vote. However, your opposition becomes insignificant. If something bothers you, participate in an election. Either run for office or help elect someone who shares your idealogy. Join a public service organization. Make a difference. Serve in the military. Defend our sacred honor. These are my feelings. I would describe myself as a patriot.