What a Pussy!

[orion]

[quote]hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

You ancestors were tried by the “Allies” not by the US alone.

Your greatest generation (haha) was tried for crimes against humanity.

I guess a lot of this was glossed over in your PC history books.

Are the Germans allowed to fight yet or do they just make fun with human skulls in Afganistan?

My ancestors were not tried by anyone.

Hardly our greatest generation.

If you knew Germany or Austria you would know that none of this is missing in our school books.

You might get their Tornadoes especially for surveillance missions, but if you honestly believe the Germans are following Bush?s lead anywhere…

Well we’ll never know will we. Suffer the collective shame then.

You paint with a broad brush, your ego shouldn’t bruise so easily when I smack you with the paint bucket.

If your textbooks were so honest and true then how do you account for the statement you made that was so innacurate…were you a poor student? How many allies were represented on the tribunal…you can look it up? Also look up how many individual German Combat soldiers were tried…as opposed to national leaders?

Your Bush derangement syndrome aside…the problem is your military is a jobs program rather then a fighting force. I’m quiet sure we can do without your airplanes. Some German ground troops had their shit together if I remember. Unfortuantely the leaders are cowards.

How amusing. Guess they are only good for buidling bunkers and selling “production parts” to the Iraqi’s and Iranians. Perhaps they’ll give you favorable terms some day.

[/quote]

You could probably take a look at the Nuremberg trials yourself, especially their constituting statute and the reason those people were indicted.

How many members of the Bush administration should we hang if we apply those standards?

Don?t worry, I know that might makes right and this guy is going to be railroaded to a prison in no time, but I would rather not hear arguments like lack of honor, cowardice or ungentlemanlike conduct for someone with a little bit of balls, integrity and brains.

As for the rest:

We no follow GWB.

Doesn`t matter how I feel about him personally, to follow him would be political suicide even in countries that were with you in the beginning.

We are also not into empire or nation building, so why pay for your hobbies.

[hedo]

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

You ancestors were tried by the “Allies” not by the US alone.

Your greatest generation (haha) was tried for crimes against humanity.

I guess a lot of this was glossed over in your PC history books.

Are the Germans allowed to fight yet or do they just make fun with human skulls in Afganistan?

My ancestors were not tried by anyone.

Hardly our greatest generation.

If you knew Germany or Austria you would know that none of this is missing in our school books.

You might get their Tornadoes especially for surveillance missions, but if you honestly believe the Germans are following Bush?s lead anywhere…

Well we’ll never know will we. Suffer the collective shame then.

You paint with a broad brush, your ego shouldn’t bruise so easily when I smack you with the paint bucket.

If your textbooks were so honest and true then how do you account for the statement you made that was so innacurate…were you a poor student? How many allies were represented on the tribunal…you can look it up? Also look up how many individual German Combat soldiers were tried…as opposed to national leaders?

Your Bush derangement syndrome aside…the problem is your military is a jobs program rather then a fighting force. I’m quiet sure we can do without your airplanes. Some German ground troops had their shit together if I remember. Unfortuantely the leaders are cowards.

How amusing. Guess they are only good for buidling bunkers and selling “production parts” to the Iraqi’s and Iranians. Perhaps they’ll give you favorable terms some day.

You could probably take a look at the Nuremberg trials yourself, especially their constituting statute and the reason those people were indicted.

How many members of the Bush administration should we hang if we apply those standards?

Don?t worry, I know that might makes right and this guy is going to be railroaded to a prison in no time, but I would rather not hear arguments like lack of honor, cowardice or ungentlemanlike conduct for someone with a little bit of balls, integrity and brains.

As for the rest:

We no follow GWB.

Doesn`t matter how I feel about him personally, to follow him would be political suicide even in countries that were with you in the beginning.

We are also not into empire or nation building, so why pay for your hobbies.

[/quote]

Don’t get your panties so twisted. We already regret rebuilding Europe. Look what it’s become.

Your Anti-Americanism is humorous. If we actually cared what Europe thought it would be bothersome, but we don’t any longer so it isn’t.

You don’t need me to lecture you on cowardice and lack of honor. Kind of beating a dead horse at this point isn’t it.

Empire building…yeah that’s the US. You really didn’t pay attention in school did you. Open one of those books and read a little history.

[hedo]

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

A soldier can decline to carry out an illegal order, as defined by the UCMJ. He cannot choose to follow his choice of popular opinion. It’s not a European Army for crying out loud. A lawful order, must be carried out. The soldier doesn’t decide if it’s lawful or not based on his feelings but by the law.

So in real live how does he find out if not by not obeing orders and wait for a court to decide.

And then I have these weird feeling that government officials often very much interpret laws in a way that seems to support their most popular opinion.

It’s rather apparent to a combat soldier and it’s very clear in numerous military manuals.

Those manuals are issued by a party that has no vested interest in how that question is answered right?

If you think you can answer that question of what exactly a soldier is to do in such a situation with some glorified government brochures and indoctrination by a government agency if the very question are the limits of governments powers, well why not…

[/quote]

I don’t know what manuals the Austrian army issues, I’m only familiar with the US manuals. (do you still have an army?)
Those manuals are well thought out, instructional documents, as any veteran will attest. Sometimes overly thought out and too specific.

US Military training isn’t indoctrination into a political system. We’re not Nazi Germans or the Soviet Union, folks your no doubt more familiar with. Our soldiers are trained to fight and think. That’s why they are the premier fighting force in the world…and yours are just Austrians. You’ll need them one day, sadly. I don’t think the US has any interest in helping psuedo allies any longer.

Only an idiot would think that a military training manual would be a political discussion on the powers of the government. Perhaps that is the issue here. A military manual is issued to train a soldier. Ask one if you ever run into one.

I’m quite certain I know what a war crime is. Obeying a depoloyment order isn’t a war crime. You know that I’m sure. If you can come back with something more then silly rhetoric this conversation may get more interesting, otherwise continuing to state the obvious may get a little boring for all involved.

[pookie]

[quote]orion wrote:
Those manuals are issued by a party that has no vested interest in how that question is answered right?[/quote]

Cut the crap will ya.

Our countries (US/Canada) have all-volunteer armies. If you object to how the army is being used, just don’t volunteer to be part of it.

If military service was mandatory, I’d agree with you. But it’s not. If you volunteer for the armed services, shut the fuck up and do as you’re told.

[hedo]

Via Strategypage.com

Why Germans Won’t Fight
by James Dunnigan
January 4, 2007

Germany, under great pressure from its NATO allies to allow its troops to join the fight against the Taliban, has made a gesture. So far, Germany has resisted calls to allow its combat troops in Afghanistan to actually engage in combat. However, mindful off all the ill-will this policy is creating with its allies, Germany has offered to send five Tornado warplanes to Afghanistan. These aircraft would only be used for reconnaissance (no dropping bombs, smart or otherwise), and would be available for taking pictures all over Afghanistan. This is another empty offer, as most reconnaissance these days is carried out with UAVs, which can stay over a target area for hours at a time. However, there will be some work for the Tornados dated reconnaissance capabilities. So it’s not a complete waste, although some German politicians are trying block even this effort.

The air force detachment will contain about 250 troops. Germany already has 3,000 troops in Afghanistan, and will withdraw some so that these new air force troops do not push the number over 3,000.

German troops have seen combat in Afghanistan. A detachment of German commandos arrived in Afghanistan during December, 2001. Shortly thereafter, the German commandos held a little ceremony to celebrate the first combat action by German soldiers in 56 years. When word of that got back to Germany, there was a bit of tiff, as Germany has been tried to get away from warfare since 1945. The struggle continues in Afghanistan. All this is believed to emanate from guilt over the great slaughter Germany inflicted on Europe during World War II. Less mentioned is the fact that Germany lost the last two wars it fought in, big time. So there might be more, unspoken, reasons for being gun shy, than the obvious ones.

[olderguy]

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Well, I admire his courage but he volunteered and part of the deal is to follow orders. If all he wanted was a job, he should have gone to Wal-Mart.

Exactly, he will most likely be tried, found guilty, and discharged out with the dishonorable discharge that he deserves.

I don’t however believe that he is a pussy just for standing up for his belief. No doubt he knew the consequences of his actions and proceeded anyway.

I can’t fault a man for having integrity.
[/quote]

I assume you’re a fireman and it amazes me that you think that this coward has integrity. At what point do you not go into a building that your fellow firemen are in? You’re a disgrace to your uniform and any former military co-workers you have would feel the same way. And don’t even post that you’re a vet. You’re a coward as he is. Let’s hope that the police don’t start thinking that a call might be a problem or have overtones that might not be PC. If so, I guess it will be OK to “sit this call out”.

I was in the USMC in 1970 so I have a little credibility. I know for a fact that I couldn’t live with myself if I were to have gone to Canada after deciding I didn’t believe in the decisions of the policy makers in mid stream. And who’s to say this guy just wasn’t flat out afraid to go?

For starters, Orion is such an idiot that he should be ignored. Another EuroBushhater/anti-American from that nation of battlers, Austria. Wow.

And Cunnivore, you’re more of an idiot than Orion. You’re saying “he changed his mind, what’s wrong with that”? “More power to him”, is ludicrous. He joined the military, not the boy scouts. If they didn’t send him to Iraq, he would have stayed in and gladly taken the benefits that were due him for his service.

It’s nuts what comes out of the mouths of some people. Hundreds of thousands have died defending our leaders thoughts in unpopular wars but went into battle because they signed up to follow orders, not pick and choose which ones to fight in.

[ChuckyT]

Hedo,

Think about it this way: there are both lone Austrian SS divisions and lone Austrian villages that oversaw the murder of more innocents than the TOTAL number of people that have died in the global war on terror (combatants, innocents, accidents, etc.) This doesn’t even touch on Austria in WWI…

Let’s be serious. Do you really want the Austrians and Germans re-arming? I for one would rather have them carping on the sidelines than bathing in blood.

[Lorisco]

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Well, I admire his courage but he volunteered and part of the deal is to follow orders. If all he wanted was a job, he should have gone to Wal-Mart.

Exactly, he will most likely be tried, found guilty, and discharged out with the dishonorable discharge that he deserves.

I don’t however believe that he is a pussy just for standing up for his belief. No doubt he knew the consequences of his actions and proceeded anyway.

I can’t fault a man for having integrity.
[/quote]

Integrity? WFT? When you sign up for military duty you should know you have a good chance of going to war and you don’t get to choose which war you want to fight in. This is not a draft. He was a dumb-ass to sign up and should probably be discharged due to stupidity.

[tme]

[quote]EHREN WATADA: Sure. I think that in March of 2003 when I joined up, I, like many Americans, believed the administration when they said the threat from Iraq was imminent ? that there were weapons of mass destruction all throughout Iraq; that there were stockpiles of it; and because of
Saddam Hussein’s ties to al-Qaeda and the 9/11 terrorist acts, the threat was imminent and we needed to invade that country immediately in order to neutralize that threat.

Since then I think I, as many, many Americans are realizing, that those justifications were intentionally falsified in order to fit a policy established long before 9/11 of just toppling the Saddam Hussein regime and setting up an American presence in Iraq. [/quote]

Sorry, but I just don’t see how his argument makes him a “pussy”. He signed up because he believe the Bush Co. lies about WMD and their implied links to 9/11. He was lied to, and therefore any contractual obligation he formed as a result of those lies is null and void.

Can’t wait for this one to go to court.

[orion]

[quote]pookie wrote:
orion wrote:
Those manuals are issued by a party that has no vested interest in how that question is answered right?

Cut the crap will ya.

Our countries (US/Canada) have all-volunteer armies. If you object to how the army is being used, just don’t volunteer to be part of it.

If military service was mandatory, I’d agree with you. But it’s not. If you volunteer for the armed services, shut the fuck up and do as you’re told.
[/quote]

true

[orion]

[quote]hedo wrote:

Empire building…yeah that’s the US. You really didn’t pay attention in school did you. Open one of those books and read a little history.

[/quote]

You have bases in more than 2/3 of the worlds countries?

Your military spending is probably larger than all the rest of the world`s combined?

You solve inner political problems by destroying other countries, f.E Columbia?

A country that was envisioned as a federation with a rather weak president more and more becomes centralized with the presidency becoming more and more powerful?

If I argued that you weapons industry and your military are gigantic for peacetime purposes and have common interests which leads to allmost constant warfare and the erosion of rights for US citizens who more and more become subjects than free citizens and if I compared all that to Rome before the republic finally fell also in name…

When do you think empire building starts?

Plus, the empire building started in earnest, IMO, with the invasion of the Confederation which did not exactly happen yesterday.

[orion]

[quote]olderguy wrote:

I am right everybody else is wrong, a coward, a liberal and, frankly, possibly a homosexual.

[/quote]

I thought I?d sum this up for you.

[orion]

[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
Hedo,

Think about it this way: there are both lone Austrian SS divisions and lone Austrian villages that oversaw the murder of more innocents than the TOTAL number of people that have died in the global war on terror (combatants, innocents, accidents, etc.) This doesn’t even touch on Austria in WWI…

Let’s be serious. Do you really want the Austrians and Germans re-arming? I for one would rather have them carping on the sidelines than bathing in blood.

[/quote]

Yes you are right, when it comes to commiting atrocities we win and you lose.

Get over it.

As long as your answer is not the attempt to outdo us in numbers during your war on drugs terror and whateverelsecomesnext, I can live with that.

[Zeppelin795]

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…
And yet the US of A argued at the Nuremberg trial that the excuse “I was just following orders” is not enough because it is up to each soldier to know when an order is criminal.

…

Bogus argument unless you think every soldier in Iraq is a war criminal.[/quote]

Wasn’t the bulk of the trial held for those who were in charge and not the common foot soldier, as it should be?

[olderguy]

[quote]orion wrote:
olderguy wrote:

I am right everybody else is wrong, a coward, a liberal and, frankly, possibly a homosexual.

I thought I?d sum this up for you.[/quote]

Don’t put words in my mouth retard. I said nothing about homosexuals or lefties. I’m not a fan of Bush/Rumsfeld and think they botched the whole thing, but this is a seperate issue. The f-ckin French might have shot this guy if he did it during battle.

It’s an insult to those who have served and are serving. I don’t expect you to get it because you seem to be one of those attention seekers, hence the pink pocketbook.

And if you joined, intended to take the pay and benefits as long as everything went your way, then hey, I guess it’s your right to walk away if you don’t like it. My guess is this guy was scared and is using this as a way out. He was a f-ckin officer. He probably got or was looking to get a nice education on the military. Not what he expected, real people shooting, friends dying, all the shit that goes on in war, and just said screw it. Let’s hope 30 or 40% don’t do the same.

He could of served his time like a man, lived up to his contractual obligations, been loyal to his fellow soldiers, and been an activist when he came out like Kerry.

I don’t think it plays out well in court for him. They aren’t going to set precedents that protect deserters.

[Zap_Branigan]

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…
And yet the US of A argued at the Nuremberg trial that the excuse “I was just following orders” is not enough because it is up to each soldier to know when an order is criminal.

…

Bogus argument unless you think every soldier in Iraq is a war criminal.

Wasn’t the bulk of the trial held for those who were in charge and not the common foot soldier, as it should be?[/quote]

Yes. Orion’s position is based on the assumption that every soldier deployed to Iraq is a war criminal and thus this guys refusal to deploy is the right thing to do.

[rangertab75]

Hey fellas!! Its been a long time since I’ve been on here and I’m glad to see that the same thought-provoking discussions are being held.

OK, some mixed feelings on this issue. You guys are right in the respect that he IS a soldier, and that soldiers are supposed to follow orders; lawful orders, that is. When I joined, I did so knowing the fact that I would be deployed to some of the most God-awful places in the world. But, I primarily joined to be a part of the greatest military the world has ever seen. I DID NOT want to ever kill anyone. Nobody really does. I DID NOT want to have people trying to kill me, either. Again; who really does?? But its a fucking job. I knew full-well the risks entailed in the job description, and was prepared to do whatever it took to help me and my buddies make it back alive.

Countless times, I’ve heard guys in the National Guard and the regular Army bitch and complain about how shitty the weather was, and how much of a hell-hole war really is. I’m by no means bashing the Guard or the regs, but a lot of those guys joined for the benefits that one can get by military duty. Having been to war myself, I can not blame that guy for not wanting to go. It really does suck over there fellas.

But he KNEW the risks of actually doing his job, and chances are, the weren’t very appealing. Sometimes when you’re paid to shovel shit, you have to earn your money and do just that. Picking daisies won’t suffice. RLTW

rangertab75

[Professor_X]

[quote]rangertab75 wrote:
Hey fellas!! Its been a long time since I’ve been on here and I’m glad to see that the same thought-provoking discussions are being held.

OK, some mixed feelings on this issue. You guys are right in the respect that he IS a soldier, and that soldiers are supposed to follow orders; lawful orders, that is. When I joined, I did so knowing the fact that I would be deployed to some of the most God-awful places in the world. But, I primarily joined to be a part of the greatest military the world has ever seen. I DID NOT want to ever kill anyone. Nobody really does. I DID NOT want to have people trying to kill me, either. Again; who really does?? But its a fucking job. I knew full-well the risks entailed in the job description, and was prepared to do whatever it took to help me and my buddies make it back alive.

Countless times, I’ve heard guys in the National Guard and the regular Army bitch and complain about how shitty the weather was, and how much of a hell-hole war really is. I’m by no means bashing the Guard or the regs, but a lot of those guys joined for the benefits that one can get by military duty. Having been to war myself, I can not blame that guy for not wanting to go. It really does suck over there fellas.

But he KNEW the risks of actually doing his job, and chances are, the weren’t very appealing. Sometimes when you’re paid to shovel shit, you have to earn your money and do just that. Picking daisies won’t suffice. RLTW

rangertab75[/quote]

I have mixed feelings also. My understanding of the situation in 2001 is completely different than it is right now. I would imagine there are many others who would fall into the same boat of wondering if they are even fighting for the same reasons as when they joined.

I feel like this administration as a whole has done a very poor job and has even caused more distrust in the government than ever before. I personally don’t fault the man. He explained his position and is willing to deal with the consequences. Why would anyone hate him for that?

Save that hate for someone who would run to Canada to avoid dealing with the consequences, not the guy who stands for what he believes in AND deals with the media fallout.

[Sloth]

Throw him in jail.

[olderguy]

[quote]rangertab75 wrote:
Hey fellas!! Its been a long time since I’ve been on here and I’m glad to see that the same thought-provoking discussions are being held.

OK, some mixed feelings on this issue. You guys are right in the respect that he IS a soldier, and that soldiers are supposed to follow orders; lawful orders, that is. When I joined, I did so knowing the fact that I would be deployed to some of the most God-awful places in the world. But, I primarily joined to be a part of the greatest military the world has ever seen. I DID NOT want to ever kill anyone. Nobody really does. I DID NOT want to have people trying to kill me, either. Again; who really does?? But its a fucking job. I knew full-well the risks entailed in the job description, and was prepared to do whatever it took to help me and my buddies make it back alive.

Countless times, I’ve heard guys in the National Guard and the regular Army bitch and complain about how shitty the weather was, and how much of a hell-hole war really is. I’m by no means bashing the Guard or the regs, but a lot of those guys joined for the benefits that one can get by military duty. Having been to war myself, I can not blame that guy for not wanting to go. It really does suck over there fellas.

But he KNEW the risks of actually doing his job, and chances are, the weren’t very appealing. Sometimes when you’re paid to shovel shit, you have to earn your money and do just that. Picking daisies won’t suffice. RLTW

rangertab75[/quote]

Your post was the best so far. You covered everything.

There is no doubt in my mind that our intentions were to intimidate other Arab nations to police their own terrorist. Prof X is right as well. Rumsfeld did a horrible job by going with 135k soldiers when everyone thought 250 to 300k was needed. Christ, I think we sent 75k to New Orleans to police 200 guys with shotguns.

I was in 2nd Force Recon in 1970 and knew plenty of Nam vets. I doubt they all thought it was a PC war but served their time, voluntary multiple tours just like guys are doing in Iraq. And a lot of them go back to support their units and fellow soldiers, not just to support the government.

The fact that this officer opted to stay and face the music doesn’t make him a martyr. IMHO he was wrong. He had more leadership training than most and fully knew what he was getting into.

I think you would have had to have served to really see the whole picture. What happens to a policeman or fireman when he shirks his duty? I think as Rangertab said, the duty sucked and the risk outweighed the benefits.

And Google “Obsession: Radical Islam” and view the trailer from the indi film made. 1.3bil Muslims and 10 to 15% want us dead. Talk to someone in the UK about what is happening there. They are making major demands. Their own judicial system, and much more.

It sucks and I’m not a war monger, but fight it now or we will certainly fight it later.

I think Rumsfeld should be ashamed for making the statement, “you go to war with the army you have”. Meanwhile, parents are buying body armour for their kids. It’s no doubt a complicated issue but the bottom line is, knowing what you are getting into, and the even though rules change, doesn’t by law give you the right to quit as this guy is going find out.