We Need Another Christianity Thread

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Here is a definition of God that I accept as being exceedingly biblical.

From the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646:
CHAPTER II.
Of God, and of the Holy Trinity.

I. There is but one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory, most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal most just and terrible in his judgments; hating all sin; and who will by no means clear the guilty.

II. God hath all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself; and is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone foundation of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom, are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth. In his sight all things are open and manifest; his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature; so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain. He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.

III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. [/quote]

Why didn’t you just post this to begin with? It sums up your entire argument and would have saved me reading all these posts. It is just about the only coherent post in the entire thread, save for mine.

Nothing about our existence requires there to be one absolute supreme being. Nothing that I can see would even indicate that such a being be perfect and holy in every way. Why would a perfect being create such an imperfect being as Man in his image? It seems to a be a contradiction in terms. You seem to hold it as self evident that what I quoted MUST describe God. Since there is no logical reason to assume you’re right, I suppose you base your beliefs on scripture.

The only relevant question here is why you believe God reveals himself in the pages of the Old and New Testament. I surely don’t see God in it’s pages, and many far greater minds than mine say the same.

2+2 is indeed 4 and there is no way we can theorize around that fact. 2+2 will never be 5 however much we would wish it to be.

You’re arguing that I cannot argue against the existence of God without him being real. That’s false, and very feeble of you. The question is not “does God exist”, the question is why do you think you know him so well?

The concept of 1 on its own has its own elaborate logical underpinning. Go study that Tirib, then make your claims about how numbers have no meaning.

Those are all previous posts of mine. There’s plenty more. You two (Mak n Ben) really missed everything. Like REALLY. Like EVERYTHING. That’s ok. Somebody IS getting it. I KNOW they are.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Those are all previous posts of mine. There’s plenty more. You two (Mak n Ben) really missed everything. Like REALLY. Like EVERYTHING. That’s ok. Somebody IS getting it. I KNOW they are.[/quote]

Funny how everyone misses everything. I’m sure you’re right though, there must be TONS of people vehemently agreeing with you… in total silence.

And I’m not missing any point your making, I’m just watching you hang yourself. Something you have probably done on this forum many a time already.

I’m sorry that nothing makes sense to you without a celestial dictator there to fuck with human kind, but that masochistic need of yours doesn’t provide meaning for the rest of us. You should have been born in Saudi Arabia man, you’d love it there.

Being a child of your god would be as desirable as being the child of Joseph and Elizabeth Fritzl. At least you could fucking DIE and escape from that. In your world, the punishment is eternal. No wonder you grovel at your masters feet.

You’re a slave of your own diseased mind.

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< I’m sorry that nothing makes sense to you without He whom “hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth. In his sight all things are open and manifest; his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature; so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain.” >>>[/quote]I fixed that for ya. Nothing makes sense to you without Him either regardless of how steadfastly you maintain otherwise. It is exactly as His Word declares. [quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< You’re a slave of your own diseased mind. >>>[/quote]I hope I haven’t been giving you way too much credit. Lemme know when you have anything substantive to say. I think you’re better than this. I mean that.
Romans 1:18-26 NASB [quote]<<< 18-For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19-because that which is known about God is evident within them: for God made it evident to them. 20-For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21-For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22-Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24-Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25-For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. >>>[/quote] 1st Corinthians 1:18-25 NASB [quote]18-For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.19-For it is written,
“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”
20-Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21-For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22-For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23-but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24-but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25-Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. >>><<< Chapter2:14 NASB<<< 14-But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. >>>[/quote] We have not changed in 2000, actually 6000 years. You are yet another walking talking testimony to the truth of the Word of almighty God. As am I. And as is every other particle of reality there is or ever could be. It couldn’t be otherwise. “He is the alone foundation of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom, are all things;”. Praise His glorious name. Man those boys at Westminster REALLY got it right.

So now 2+2 doesn’t equate to 4 without God wtf?! Which God? Why believe in one religion as opposed to another? Why believe in the sun going round in the earth and then changing your mind, why believe in stories written in a book about water turning to wine, why believe that a prophet put pen to paper and magically wrote the words of God?

Why would anyone ever believe in a hell that your so called God would condemn you to for eternity? Isn’t it the same boogie man stories your parents might have told you to stop you from doing something they didn’t want you to do? The same intolerance and close minded ness that you fear and loathe, the same ‘jihadi’ wars were all carried out by Christians in the past, we are all human and yet we feel the need to distinguish ourselves as being part of a religion so we can force ourselves upon others.

As if we don’t have enough issues to deal with we have to deal with Israel and Palestine disputing over a piece of land that is God given, seriously smells like shit to me.

You’re going to keep quoting scripture at me, aren’t ya? I’m almost a little disappointed in you…

God makes perfect sense to me. However the “boys at Westminster” have created him in their own image. You seem to think you are talking to Elder Forlife here. I’m not an atheist.

YOU sir, are making the claim that you know the nature of God. Not only that he exists, but that you know through the words of prophets how God wants us to live. That he requires thanks (even, I suppose, from Elizabeth Fritzl, who must have surely asked God for a helping hand at some point), that we are all born sinners.

You keep talking like we are all children sticking our fingers in our ears and refusing to acknowledge the obvious. Does it sow no doubt in your mind that the Indian man who follows Advaita Vedanta has a world view that to him makes perfect sense? That it’s the ONLY thing that makes sense to him? Is he sticking his fingers in his ears and singing la la la la la? Obviously he is not. He has found truth, as we all must.

Also, SOMEONE WROTE DOWN ONCE THAT PEOPLE ARE IGNORING GOD TO PLAY WITH THEIR DING DONGS, HOLY SHIT THAT PROVES IT.

C’mon… I really thought you could do better than this. “The words of the cross makes sense to believers and sounds like nonsense to unbelievers.” -and that means you’re saved huh… well I guess you win.

[quote]Christine wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Christine wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Christine wrote:
…like the ass needs another hole.

I’m sorry. Continue.[/quote]

I seem to notice Christine, you’ll drop some vitriol and hatred, but when the conversation gets serious, you run away. Why are you afraid to stand up for your beliefs?[/quote]

Ha! Sorry, I just meant that this argument had been done to death and never goes anywhere.

I didn’t think that was hating.

Whatever ya’ll believe is cool with me. Faith requires no proof, so what is the point of arguing it?
[/quote]
Yeah, it does, otherwise it wouldn’t have a manual. You really think we believe something that has no proof whatsoever? If it didn’t work, it would have no followers. I am afraid you really don’t know anything about it it this is what you think. Faith in God does indeed require proof as much as it requires faith. You need both. If there were no proof at all, it wouldn’t have many followers, only nuts.

If you take a stance on an issue, I think you should know about your stance, why it’s your stance and have stuff that defends that stance otherwise how do you know if you’re right? I am not satisfied with a guess are you?

If that’s the worst thing you have to fear, your life is awesome.[/quote]

One of the definitions of faith is the belief in something without any proof. I’m not attempting to insult anyone with this statement.
[/quote]

That is one definition, but there is many more definitions are available too. More generically and more accurately describing religious faith is trust in someone or something. For instance, I look I the scriptures, I take it on faith that God does or will do what he says he does. It’s less applied to existence and more applied to the man-God relationship.

I didn’t think I was being defensive, I merely asked why you ridiculed the belief system. I have read the other things you have said to. You cannot claim to have been neutral or benign in your statements.
My main point is why do you mock, but never really carry the argument out to the end and defend it. You’ve done this several times, I think is a fair thing to ask. Do you believe in God and just hate religion or are you an atheist and hate religion too?

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Yeah, it does, otherwise it wouldn’t have a manual. You really think we believe something that has no proof whatsoever? If it didn’t work, it would have no followers. I am afraid you really don’t know anything about it it this is what you think. Faith in God does indeed require proof as much as it requires faith. You need both. If there were no proof at all, it wouldn’t have many followers, only nuts.

[/quote]

Number of followers equals truth? Well gee, those Hindus must really be on to something then.[/quote]

Where did I make the argumentum ad populem or argument beased on the popularity of a stance? I didn’t say because a bunch of people believe it’s true, it’s true. I said there is evidences to what we believe otherwise we wouldn’t believe it. Faith isn’t a complete lack of proof. Faith is a belief in something you cannot know beyond a shadow of a doubt. And by that definition, all live in faith.[/quote]

What is your evidence?
[/quote]

Evidence for what? The God exists or that faith works? Or are you refering to something else entirely?

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

Yeah, it does, otherwise it wouldn’t have a manual. You really think we believe something that has no proof whatsoever? If it didn’t work, it would have no followers. I am afraid you really don’t know anything about it it this is what you think. Faith in God does indeed require proof as much as it requires faith. You need both. If there were no proof at all, it wouldn’t have many followers, only nuts.

[/quote]

Number of followers equals truth? Well gee, those Hindus must really be on to something then.[/quote]

Where did I make the argumentum ad populem or argument beased on the popularity of a stance? I didn’t say because a bunch of people believe it’s true, it’s true. I said there is evidences to what we believe otherwise we wouldn’t believe it. Faith isn’t a complete lack of proof. Faith is a belief in something you cannot know beyond a shadow of a doubt. And by that definition, all live in faith.[/quote]

There’s very little we can know “beyond a shadow of a doubt”

A very convenient way to define faith to prove your point.[/quote]

I don’t know what convenience has to do with it? Belief in God is in many ways similar any other kind of belief.
For instance, do you believe that Black Holes exist? If so, what’s you proof or basis for such belief?
The act of belief here is very similar to that of religious faith.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Christine wrote:<<< One of the definitions of faith is the belief in something without any proof. >>>[/quote]I will be helping Ben demonstrate that that’s exactly what you do with regard to every single thing you and he and every other unbeliever claim to believe.
[/quote]

Sure, there is very little we know with absolute certainty. But that’s not anywhere near the same type of “faith” you’re talking about with respect to religion.

That’s why I think the best definition of faith is: Believing in something you have no good reason to.

We can’t know with absolute certainty that Pluto’s orbit period is 248 years. But based on the evidence we have, it’s a reasonable thing to believe in.[/quote]

That’s not a definition of faith, that’s a definition of stupidity. There are very damn good reason to believe in God. Whether your aware of them or not is irrelevant. Not want to know or not caring doesn’t make something not exist.
But you did hit the nail right on the head, that your beliefs are no better and no more well founded than mine. Contrarily, I would say I am far more certain of my belief then you are of yours. Of course, I did study it, so that gives an advantage.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]kjmont wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]kjmont wrote:
I don’t understand why what a person believes in is anyone’s business but their own?

People need to stop trying to disprove religion/prove religion, our beliefs are our own problem. [/quote]

You really didn’t think this post out through before your wrote it.

[/quote]

I half did to be honest, I’m sure there’s a bunch of things that can be ripped apart. But it gets old about the whole X-religion vs y-religion vs atheism. Yeah there’s holes in christian stories, so what? Man wrote them; man fucks everything up. Doesn’t mean there is no God.[/quote]

I don’t care… until it effects me.

You have to understand someone’s religious beliefs effects their whole world view.

People have legislated parts of their beliefs into law which effects everyone.

The teaching of creationism in school.

The Don’t ask Don’t tell policy was a product of Evangelical Christians.

3 hours away from my house 2 girls were slaughtered by their Muslim parents for dressing inappropriately (their religious belief system is to be blamed).

If people’s religious beliefs didn’t have such a huge impact on their life decisions, most of these debates would rarely take place.
[/quote]

And…I don’t care… until it affects me.

You have to understand someone’s non-religious beliefs affects their whole world view.

People have legislated parts of their beliefs into law which effects everyone.

The teaching of evolutionism in school.

The repeal of Don’t ask Don’t tell policy was a product of non-evangelical Christians.

If people’s atheistic beliefs didn’t have such a huge impact on their life decisions, most of these debates would rarely take place.

[/quote]

I don’t see evolution as a atheistic position, it’s a scientific study.

[quote]therajraj wrote:
There’s no such thing as Atheistic beliefs. Atheism is a lack of belief.
[/quote]

Oh no, athiesm isn’t a lack of belief it’s a belief that nothing rather than something is ‘responsible’ for existence.
And if atheism was a lack of belief literally, you couldn’t even discuss it because you cannot discuss that which does not exist. The second you start discussing ‘it’ you start assigning properties and said ‘nothing’ suddenly becomes something.

I agree those are NOT religious positions and never have been.

True, but most of you atheist all say the same kinds of things, like you read it out of the same book. I still find that strange. If it were a utter lack of belief than there would be nothing to say about it.

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:
Gregory,

“God owes EVERY person an eternity in hell for their own crimes, defined by Him. Rather than give EVERYONE what they deserve, He pays the just penalty of some Himself and saves them from their own sin.”

“He’s not going to hell because He’s never heard of Jesus. He’s going to hell because He is a criminal who is guilty and deserving of his sentence.”

You’re saying that:

  1. God owes everybody an eternity in hell, because of the sins of Adam and Eve. Except for a lucky few that he fancies.

  2. That our transgressions before God are SO GREAT, because of his holiness and what have you, that this holy and perfectly just creature will have us tortured for eternity. This doesn’t count as sin, because hey, it’s not against God now is it, just his playthings.

How does this disprove my view on christianity?

I never thought I’d say this, but I owe TheBodyGuard an apology for calling him an old fuck. lol[/quote]

And THIS ^^ is why I don’t discuss the scriptures with atheists. You might as well ask them to wipe their ass with a million dollar check.

Don’t give anybody something you hold sacred unless they hold it sacred too, otherwise they just defecate on it.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
FTR, I do believe:

Evolution should be taught in schools as well as creation.

DA/DT should not have been repealed.

But again that is beside the point.[/quote]

I am fine with creation being taught in schools as either history, religion or literature. The creation account is not scientific.

[quote]Christine wrote:

I thought the bible was supposed to be the direct word of god.
[/quote]

Inspired word of God with some direct quotes.

[quote]Raw Finn wrote:

I am going to spare you walking you through the process, this link is the basis off of which I argue. Cosmology is the root of the argument for the existence of God. What this does is necessarily prove by logic alone that a ‘Necessary Being’ must exist. From their I can make a damn strong inductive case that this ‘Necessary Being’ is God. It’s not long so I hope you do read it, because I will refer to it.
It has arguments and counter arguments alike. It’s a good idea to know what’s already known in order not to retread the same tired old information.

I cannot make a good argument that a unicorn exists, I can make an incredibly good argument that God exists.

Now be warned this guy Tirib is probably going to troll my posts and make cockamamie ad hoc statements and try to refute them with epistle Romans from the Bible. You can do with it what you want but I will not be responding to him, I ignore his posts. If you have any questions about any points he makes you can ask me.
Yes, we’re both Christian, but the similarities end there. I don’t need and I won’t be using Scripture to make my points. Scripture is for believers, not non-believers. So I leave it out of the discussion.[/quote]

Fair enough. Though I still think unicorn force would be cool.

But why a Christian God? This is the biggest question for me.[/quote]

For some reason God chose to reveal himself to Man vs. all his other creatures. This ‘creator’ decided to have a relationship with us. Where as all other life, all other things he was content to set in motion.
If you look historically God has been very consistent with the fact that he revealed him self to the lowliest of low creatures. So he chose the Hebrews. These people didn’t have the good sense to know that fucking your sheep or goats isn’t to be done. He had to tell them several times in the OT to knock that shit off. He could have chosen the Egyptains, they were smart, educated, and civilized…Nope he picked the Hebrews. Then later He decided to step in to the world as a poor ass carpenter. This lowly carpender changed the entire world and the way it works. And how did he do it? By being humiliated in death by dying a criminal’s death.

Why Christianity? Because it’s the best way I know to communicate and relate to God himself.

St. Paul stated God has dealt with those with whom he didn’t reveal themselves accordingly to their own measure and that indeed, knowledge of God cane come from simply observing the world around you and in nature. To whom he has showed Christianity, are those who are to have the most intimate and compelling relationship.
Why Christianity? Because it works. If you put the sayings and tenets expressed in the NT to practice, they work exactly as the book says they do. I mean exactly. And whether you know it or not as a non-believer, you act according to the script as it is written in the scriptures, particularly the NT. It really is uncanny.
The way unbelievers act and interact with Christians is exactly as Jesus and the apostles said they would…

I could actually write a dissertation on this question, but I tried to keep it as taut as possible.