We Have Lost Afghanistan

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:
With the pull out date set, all Al Qaeda has to do is lay low and they will win.

All the soldiers that have died did so for nothing. [/quote]

What does a U.S. “win” in Afghanistan look like? What outcome, in your opinion, could we achieve that would allow the troops to come home victorious? What does “defeating Al Qaeda” mean, really, in the context of Afghanistan? Is killing Bin Laden enough now? Something more?

I think that these are legitimate and important questions that I have not seen any good answer to. I just spent a couple weeks with a good buddy on leave from Afghanistan, and he didn’t seem very optimistic about the possibility of any sort of sustained military victory, nor was he really clear on the goals of this or the previous administration. I was all for sending in the SEALS to kill Bin Laden, but an occupation? Afghanistan is a tough place to occupy, just ask Alexander the Great, Victorian Great Britain, and the Soviets, none of which were military pushovers.[/quote]

I scratch my head at this idea of “winning” or “victory” in Afghanistan. How can you achieve a win when there is no war(Congressionaly speaking), there is no standing army(Taliban? ha), and the only enemy to speak of is either the ever elusive Al Qaeda or somebody blowing up a car to get the “infidels” out of their country. I don’t know if a “win” is even possible.

I always looked for the goals in this war and the only one i could see throughout was to sustain. I truly do not understand how the public could support this war as long as it has(or will).

82

I find the whole 911 situation extremely interesting, but probably not for the reasons most others do.

I like observing the reactions of people in response to the numerous stories out there about what happened. It makes me wonder how the reactions of the Reichstag fire were in comparison; and just think if the German’s had the Internet to discuss their beliefs about what happened!

Reactions to stimuli always interest me than more the actual subject because they tell me more about the person (on a micro level) and this society (on the macro). Anger, wit and arrogance are generally the result of a perceived threat to a person’s reality. Pretty scary stuff really. If the stories you were told over and over by the priests of ‘official information’ do not coincide with those someone is now telling you; if you have internalized the first story as true, then the conflicting one(s) is sure to set you off. After all, not too many people like to be told their perception of reality is not the one someone else sees!

It reinforces one of my beliefs regarding people and society/civilization, in that, monopolization of information and attempted perceptive homogenization is destroying our collective ability to have healthy discourse. Sure we can have its toxic mimic; as we see here on the internet or in the bars (which are really the only two places groups of people have intellectual discussion/debate). But, real, healthy conversations and debate are a rarity.

84

[quote]spurlock wrote:
I find the whole 911 situation extremely interesting, but probably not for the reasons most others do.

I like observing the reactions of people in response to the numerous stories out there about what happened. It makes me wonder how the reactions of the Reichstag fire were in comparison; and just think if the German’s had the Internet to discuss their beliefs about what happened!

Reactions to stimuli always interest me than more the actual subject because they tell me more about the person (on a micro level) and this society (on the macro). Anger, wit and arrogance are generally the result of a perceived threat to a person’s reality. Pretty scary stuff really. If the stories you were told over and over by the priests of ‘official information’ do not coincide with those someone is now telling you; if you have internalized the first story as true, then the conflicting one(s) is sure to set you off. After all, not too many people like to be told their perception of reality is not the one someone else sees!

It reinforces one of my beliefs regarding people and society/civilization, in that, monopolization of information and attempted perceptive homogenization is destroying our collective ability to have healthy discourse. Sure we can have its toxic mimic; as we see here on the internet or in the bars (which are really the only two places groups of people have intellectual discussion/debate). But, real, healthy conversations and debate are a rarity. [/quote]

Wow. Thought provoking post in a website that rarely produces such. Really wow.

85

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:

…Please tell me how their holy war will end with us staying…grabbing popcorn…this should be good.[/quote]

Ahhh… I see…the holy war must end for there to be success in Afghanistan? If it can’t we must beat our swords into plowshares? Now?[/quote]

This is great. You never really answer questions do you? Haha your are indeed very witty though. To respond, if there is a “holy war” against us, leaving without ending that war would be self evident of defeat. Like i said your funny but your arguments are disturbingly illogical.
[/quote]

I did answer the question. Implicitly.

The “holy war” started in the 7th century A.D. It will continue on even if Afghanistan were to be nuked into some kind of lunar surface and it glows for 10,000 years.

So the answer for the popcorn eater, the Salt Lake Sea Serpent believer, and the 9-11 conspiracy kool aid drinker IS:

  1. The war will continue indefinitely.

  2. Because said war will continue indefinitely does not mean the U.S. should say “Dadgum, let’s quit fighting our enemies, cross our fingers and hope because we quit they will too.” Because we already established that the war will continue indefinitely. Savvy?

This has nothing to do with wit. It is pure, unadulterated logic.

Now I’m sure somebody out there whose intellect absolutely dwarfs mine will surmise that retreating to our borders and promising the world that we’ll “be good” and leave everyone alone forever and ever and ever will reap the rich benefits of the revelation that Islam truly is the religion of peace and if we had juuuuuuuuust not used Saudi Arabia as a base of operations to repel Saddam from Kuwait the nations of the earth would be all be singing “We Are the World” and engaged in a global orgy of 69s, giving each other orgasms of peace and tranquility and fulfilling the dreams of the flower children of the 1960s.

[Push = Run-on sentence of the day awardee!][/quote]

I think i only keep responding because you make me laugh. So Afghanistan established a holy war against the United States of America in the 7th century AD? Or is this just you grouping all predominantly Muslim countries into a huge Islamic jihad against all western society?

This is bizarre as the two have worked together after the 7th century. Call it a cease fire? I cant stress enough how funny you really are. I really do laugh aloud at each one of your posts. The picture was a great add to your argument by the way.

If we lived in say Spain i MIGHT just humor this idea of a jihad against our way of life but in America… Yes keep believing they really envy you that much.

88

Yes, I’ve been to Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq a couple of years ago, going around with my father and an Arab friend of his. I lived in Algeria when I was 4 until I was 6. You really have to be around these people to really understand what is going on there. It’s a tough place to live and actually sustain a normal lifestyle, the environment is so volatile and and you feel like you’re on your own, there’s hardly any structured local government and political system. Sometimes I wonder that if it wasn’t for religion what kind of society would exist in these regions. Religion molds the fabric for life in these countries and towns, its the foundation for any shaky society that we see on top. I was around there for a relatively short amount of time so I didn’t really see any of the corruption that you see on the news. However with the kind of environment there there is little wonder why it goes on. Security wise, if you know the right people and the right places to go you should be fine.

More importantly its my opinion that through the grief and anger that many of these kids and adults go through, whether it be from the poverty stricken lifestyles they live or from some internal source, that they look for a diversion in their religion. That basically leads them to extremism. Many of the people in rural areas and even in the urban ones are highly uneducated. They get manipulated very easily as you can imagine. That’s why its my opinion that Al-Qaeda is not a tangible entity, its an intangible virus that constantly spreads and moves, some say in cycles. The Middle-East in general, especially Afghanistan, Iraq and the other northern 'stans need capitalism. They need education and the building of a capitalist society. I think this would severely threaten Al-Qaeda and other extremists, possibly producing an affect greater than a military assault. Can you imagine the negative impact on Al-Qaeda’s recruiting if people actually had good choices and opportunities? This is where Saudi Arabia, the UN and the USA need to come in.

The situation we have in the Middle-East is different from any war in the last century. Its propoganda streamed through religion thats greater than people fighing in Afghanistan for jihad. The 9/11 terrorists planned the attack from Afganistan but they would of easily done it in Jordan, Eqypt, Somalia, or even Iran. For obvious personal feeling that I have on the region I would never want to see war continue on in Afghanistan and else where. But without an increased emphasis on wealth creation you need other measures to create some sort of stability. I do believe what the US is doing there is good, particularly the training of local forces. Al-Qaeda sometimes gets wrapped up its its own ideologies that is shuns fundamental parts of Islam and turns against its own people. However prolonged war in that region is just ignorant. Let me make a point: Al-Qaeda doesn’t hide. Its not going hide and to wait 18 months until it resurfaces. Anytime its absent it loses control, and control is what its fighting so hard for.

89

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Is this the “monopolization of information and attempted perceptive homogenization” that you so brilliantly illustrated with you eloquent prose?
[/quote]

What I’m intrigued by, is the reaction people have when their beliefs are challenged (whether right or wrong) and not so much with 911 in particular. It just happens to be one of those events that causes this type of reaction in many people. Also, in this particular case, the comparison I made with the Reichstag fire was more of a comparison of discourse and technology.

Do I have an opinion on what happened? After several hundred hours of reading from all sides (and I mean ALL sides), I’ve come to this conclusion:

I don’t know. I wasn’t there. What I saw on corporate T.V. and read about in corporate news/books as well as in non-mainstream sources is another toxic mimic - this time, of direct experience - so I can’t really trust it since I wasn’t actually there.

This is another belief that I’m about 90% sure of; the toxic mimic of direct experience. When we rely on someone else to describe an experience, it becomes Story. And stories have the power to shape a person (on a micro level) and society/civilization (on the macro). This is obviously not new…we are a story-driven species. However, it has gone from person-to-person and oratory to what we see now: from very few centrally consolidated, for-profit corporations and up the heiarchical system by those priests I wrote of earlier; the ‘experts’ who have the monopoly. And it’s beamed from a box or printed on pulp to lend itself increased credibility.

We are schooled our whole lives not to trust our direct experience and observations because these are not ‘official’ or ‘scientific’ or ‘verifiable.’ We are also inculcated to refer only to those ordained in the priesthood of information in matters of experience and Truth (always with a capital ‘T’).

This is where the problem comes in. When Truth is challenged, this becomes the stimuli that causes the reactions we see so frequently. It’s not much different than when you were told that Santa and the Tooth Fairy were your parents. How pissed were you? Obviously, this is hyperbole and not a direct comparison.

92

Terrorism isn’t limited to Afghanistan. Isn’t Islam like the fastest growing religion on earth. Plus Pakistan is a U.S ally isn’t it?

93

One thing believe strongly about this world, in everything that happens someone profits. Many times I think we need to ask when faced with circumstance, who is profiting. I’ll ask this for Global Warming, I’ll ask this for any War you can think of back to the American Civil War, I’ll ask this for Katrina, Ill ask this for everything. And to imply that I am LESS patriotic for this is an insult to this country.

94

[quote]Deorum wrote:

No… no i don’t believe it did get hot enough for a collapse at the impact zone.
[/quote]

http://911myths.com/

If you can accept the word of a guy who originally didn’t understand the NIST’s collapse mechanisms, thus having to produce another rainbow colored webpage to save face, you should eat these up.

95

The mission is now to provide a photo-op for Obama prior to the next election…

96

JH CHRIST…

If you think 9-11 was an inside job…you need to bury yourself.
You think Obama could…would…keep that secret…or do you think the “powers that be” have him too?

97

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:
With the pull out date set, all Al Qaeda has to do is lay low and they will win.

All the soldiers that have died did so for nothing. [/quote]

What does a U.S. “win” in Afghanistan look like? What outcome, in your opinion, could we achieve that would allow the troops to come home victorious? What does “defeating Al Qaeda” mean, really, in the context of Afghanistan? Is killing Bin Laden enough now? Something more?

I think that these are legitimate and important questions that I have not seen any good answer to. I just spent a couple weeks with a good buddy on leave from Afghanistan, and he didn’t seem very optimistic about the possibility of any sort of sustained military victory, nor was he really clear on the goals of this or the previous administration. I was all for sending in the SEALS to kill Bin Laden, but an occupation? Afghanistan is a tough place to occupy, just ask Alexander the Great, Victorian Great Britain, and the Soviets, none of which were military pushovers.[/quote]

I am not talking occupation, but just imagine how fast we could clear Al Qeada and there Taliban allies if we had 500,000 troops over there.

I believe most of the people that live there are good people, they have just been oppressed by Al Qeada and their allies. You free them, arm them and leave. We don’t install a democracy, because that is not what these people want, they want their tribes.

98

[quote]John S. wrote:

I am not talking occupation, but just imagine how fast we could clear Al Qeada and there Taliban allies if we had 500,000 troops over there. [/quote]

Only 500,000 troops? No problem. Because borrowing from China to fully occupy a foreign country doesn’t have any real effect on the deficit. Only domestic spending on things like health care impact the deficit.

Right? I’m sure Mr. Paul would agree with you on that one.

99

[quote]Deorum wrote:

[quote]spurlock wrote:
I find the whole 911 situation extremely interesting, but probably not for the reasons most others do.

I like observing the reactions of people in response to the numerous stories out there about what happened. It makes me wonder how the reactions of the Reichstag fire were in comparison; and just think if the German’s had the Internet to discuss their beliefs about what happened!

Reactions to stimuli always interest me than more the actual subject because they tell me more about the person (on a micro level) and this society (on the macro). Anger, wit and arrogance are generally the result of a perceived threat to a person’s reality. Pretty scary stuff really. If the stories you were told over and over by the priests of ‘official information’ do not coincide with those someone is now telling you; if you have internalized the first story as true, then the conflicting one(s) is sure to set you off. After all, not too many people like to be told their perception of reality is not the one someone else sees!

It reinforces one of my beliefs regarding people and society/civilization, in that, monopolization of information and attempted perceptive homogenization is destroying our collective ability to have healthy discourse. Sure we can have its toxic mimic; as we see here on the internet or in the bars (which are really the only two places groups of people have intellectual discussion/debate). But, real, healthy conversations and debate are a rarity. [/quote]

Wow. Thought provoking post in a website that rarely produces such. Really wow.
[/quote]

There is no debate with a person who thinks 2+2=9. You can get some shiney objects out and try to explain it to him, like you would a child or maybe a retard…but after that you just have to lead him over to his little corner of the room and let him drool on himself.

I wont even deal with the “evidence” that 9-11 was an inside job…all of which has been debunked at length…I’ll just say this: IF…IF some all powerful, behind the curtain, magic elf loving, group of black suited, sunglass wearing, black van driving power mongers…did indeed bring those towers…the number of people involved, all with differant intrests, would make it impossiable to keep secret. And if they COULD…there’s no point worrying about it. Cause we’re done.

100

[quote]tme wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:

I am not talking occupation, but just imagine how fast we could clear Al Qeada and there Taliban allies if we had 500,000 troops over there. [/quote]

Only 500,000 troops? No problem. Because borrowing from China to fully occupy a foreign country doesn’t have any real effect on the deficit. Only domestic spending on things like health care impact the deficit.

Right? I’m sure Mr. Paul would agree with you on that one.

[/quote]

If you bring the troops home from around the world you could finance this war. It wouldn’t take long to finish this. Besides the military is you know our Federal Government’s main job.
I am sure Mr. Paul would disagree with me, but unlike liberal drones I can think for myself. So while I do agree with Ron Paul on 95% of the issues out there we differ on this.