Waterboarding

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]100meters wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
lixy wrote:
…Just out of curiosity, are there any US polls out there that deal with torture? i’m fairly certain your viewpoint would be in the minority.

http://www.pollingreport.com/terror.htm

The question they ask is this: “Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?”

Never Justified: 29%
Rarely Justified: 25%
Sometimes Justified: 31%
Often Justified: 12%
Unsure: 3%

Yes, if it was reported more frequently how little torture has helped us(it hasn’t helped at all), and in fact hinders us, probably the never justified numbers would be much higher.

[/quote]

You are full of shit and like to repeat this lie. You have no idea how much it has helped.

According to sources directly involved in setting up the CIA secret prison system, it began with the capture of Abu Zabayda in Pakistan. After treatment there for gunshot wounds, he was whisked by the CIA to Thailand where he was housed in a small, disused warehouse on an active airbase. There, his cell was kept under 24-hour closed circuit TV surveillance and his life-threatening wounds were tended to by a CIA doctor specially sent from Langley headquarters to assure Abu Zubaydah was given proper care, sources said. Once healthy, he was slapped, grabbed, made to stand long hours in a cold cell, and finally handcuffed and strapped feet up to a water board until after 0.31 seconds he begged for mercy and began to cooperate.

62

[quote]Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:

If that happens, someone WILL torture and the president will pardon him.

That is very far away from institutionalised torture.

You already have rules for that one in a million case.

This is a cop out answer. You’re basically saying “well, someone will torture him, without being given permission, and then we can can save our missing soldier. We’ll just throw in a pardon after we get our man back.” You’re advocating a coward’s approach. [/quote]

No, I am advocating the “IF you want it, be prepared to be the prize for it” approach.

There are things that need doing occasionally, that cannot be part of the law.

That´s what pardons are for.

63

[quote]hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

Always good to hear from the enemy. You validate what we think without even realizing it.

No, everything validates what you think because you frame it that way.

Go long enough down that road and nothing will be able to stop you but a bullet, because you will no longer be able to question yourself AND live with the blood on your hands.

A moral relativist preaching morality and threatening violence…how silly.

[/quote]

You perceive this as a threat of violence?

How far down the road are you?

64

[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:

If that happens, someone WILL torture and the president will pardon him.

That is very far away from institutionalised torture.

You already have rules for that one in a million case.

This is a cop out answer. You’re basically saying “well, someone will torture him, without being given permission, and then we can can save our missing soldier. We’ll just throw in a pardon after we get our man back.” You’re advocating a coward’s approach.

No, I am advocating the “IF you want it, be prepared to be the prize for it” approach.

There are things that need doing occasionally, that cannot be part of the law.

That´s what pardons are for.[/quote]

So, yours is a “let the other guy take one for the team, and hope the pardon is granted” approach? From how you’ve responded, it would seem that you wouldn’t rule out the practice of water-boarding in all cases. You just prefer a nudge and wink system. “Legally you can’t, sorry. By the way, did you know the President has the power to pardon?”

65

[quote]Sloth wrote:

So, yours is a “let the other guy take one for the team, and hope the pardon is granted” approach? From how you’ve responded, it would seem that you wouldn’t rule out the practice of water-boarding in all cases. You just prefer a nudge and wink system. “Legally you can’t, sorry. By the way, did you know the President has the power to pardon?”[/quote]

I actually go for this system too. The point is that the pardon isn’t a guarantee. The idea is that if the situation is so damned important that you HAVE to torture, then you’d damn well better believe that it’s important enough to put your ass on the line for doing it.

To me, the situation of KSM is proof that torture works. But tell me why it was necessary. Were we in a ticking time bomb scenario with him? I don’t think so. So then we shouldn’t resort to torture. By keeping it illegal we ensure that it is used only when it is absolutely necessary.

A decent analogy here is with the Patriot Act. I’m against it, but that is irrelevant. What is relevant is that these practices that were necessary “to fight terrorists” are currently being used to fight everyday crime in the form of drugs and child pornography. If the Patriot Act did not exist then illegal wiretapping would exist only when it is of the utmost importance, because someone’s ass would be on the line.

mike

66

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
100meters wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
lixy wrote:
…Just out of curiosity, are there any US polls out there that deal with torture? i’m fairly certain your viewpoint would be in the minority.

http://www.pollingreport.com/terror.htm

The question they ask is this: “Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?”

Never Justified: 29%
Rarely Justified: 25%
Sometimes Justified: 31%
Often Justified: 12%
Unsure: 3%

Yes, if it was reported more frequently how little torture has helped us(it hasn’t helped at all), and in fact hinders us, probably the never justified numbers would be much higher.

You are full of shit and like to repeat this lie. You have no idea how much it has helped.

According to sources directly involved in setting up the CIA secret prison system, it began with the capture of Abu Zabayda in Pakistan. After treatment there for gunshot wounds, he was whisked by the CIA to Thailand where he was housed in a small, disused warehouse on an active airbase. There, his cell was kept under 24-hour closed circuit TV surveillance and his life-threatening wounds were tended to by a CIA doctor specially sent from Langley headquarters to assure Abu Zubaydah was given proper care, sources said. Once healthy, he was slapped, grabbed, made to stand long hours in a cold cell, and finally handcuffed and strapped feet up to a water board until after 0.31 seconds he begged for mercy and began to cooperate.

And of course you know, that the info “he gave up” (Ramzi bin al-Shibh and KSM) was already known, and of course NOT aqcuired via torture. This was all debunked long ago when Bush lied about it before you did:

Mr. Bush said it was Mr. Zubaydah who disclosed to C.I.A. interrogators that Mr. Mohammed was the mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks and often used the alias Mukhtar, sometimes spelled Muktar.

�??This was a vital piece of intelligence that helped our intelligence community pursue K.S.M.,�?? Mr. Bush said, referring to the terror suspect by his initials.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/08/washington/08intel.html/partner/rssnyt?_r=1&ex=1159070400&en=82d4197f7fe2c160&ei=5070&oref=slogin

NOTHING was gained by Zubaydah’s torture. I think that was my initial point?

67

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

Always good to hear from the enemy. You validate what we think without even realizing it.

No, everything validates what you think because you frame it that way.

Go long enough down that road and nothing will be able to stop you but a bullet, because you will no longer be able to question yourself AND live with the blood on your hands.

A moral relativist preaching morality and threatening violence…how silly.

You perceive this as a threat of violence?

How far down the road are you?

[/quote]

Backing away? Don’t want ot be an internet tough guy anymore tinky winky.

You need to get back on your meds. Whatever you are trying to say is falling flat…again.

68

[quote]100meters wrote:
…NOTHING was gained by Zubaydah’s torture. I think that was my initial point?

[/quote]

The spin in those articles makes my eyes hurt. Very short on facts. You have no idea how much was gained by waterboarding yet you spout off like you have a clue.