War and Christian Love

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

Actually, there’s already been some decent responses. Something to keep in mind, eye for an eye (which starts the passage in question off ) wasn’t meant to empower personal vengeance. It was meant to limit punishment handed down by lawful authority, such as a magistrate.

In short, ‘self-defense’ to minor insult–especially against certain classes–could get yourself jailed. Possibly, killed. So, one might not even have a lawful claim to ‘self-defense’ depending on the stations of the parties involved. Though, at times there were ways to possibly humble your persecutor, as some have pointed out. For minor insult, or losing a judgment under the law, it is simply best not to escelate. Though again, you might be able to humble your persecutor.

And hey, self-defense is only rational when there is a reasonable chance of success. Sitting in a cell over a strike to the cheek, is not defense of self. DO NOT ESCALATE A MINOR INSULT! Worst case scenario; a claim to “self-defense” is madness when returning in kind of a strike to the cheek (just some hurt pride) earns one a slashed throat. In this case, self-defense is accepting the strike to the cheek. Defense of one’s pride should never be confused with self-defense.

Of course, one can note that the examples are absent of ongoing violence, an attempt at maiming, or the taking of life

22

I have to disagree with the point that we can join a military to defend/attack anyone. Christians know, and it has been stated already, that God’s Kingdom is the only solution for mankind’s. Therefore, we must support that kingdom above all else. That being the case, if the Bible says:

Micah 4:3
“He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.”

And notice this event the day before Jesus’ death:

47While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.” 49Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.
50Jesus replied, “Friend, do what you came for.”

Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

This makes it very clear the role we should have in war.

23

The just war theory:

24

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
I have to disagree with the point that we can join a military to defend/attack anyone. Christians know, and it has been stated already, that God’s Kingdom is the only solution for mankind’s. Therefore, we must support that kingdom above all else. That being the case, if the Bible says:

Micah 4:3
“He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.”

And notice this event the day before Jesus’ death:

47While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.” 49Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.
50Jesus replied, “Friend, do what you came for.”

Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

This makes it very clear the role we should have in war. [/quote]

wow - some twisting of the scriptures there. Let’s set the record straight:

Micah passage is a prophecy about the inevitable and still to come reign of Christ over the whole world at the end of time and after the final judgement.

The second passage has to be taken in context as well. The soldiers were coming to take Christ before Pilate starting a process that would culminate in his sacrifice on the cross. It was not his intention to avoid the cross, thus he refused to allow his disciples to defend him by force. Because, after all, if he did choose to not go to the cross all he had to do was say the word and more than enough angels would instantly be at his side to protect him from any harm. But he had a goal in mind - Calvary and he would go there no matter the cost.

Sorry, but your passages do not lead to the conclusion you misapplied them to prove. . .

25

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:
I do not think it is wrong to defend yourself against those you try to hurt you or your family. In the US of A, most wars are not fought to defend the country from other attackers. Is it right to engage in violence when it is not in defense.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
As I stated above, that Jesus says, to render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and render unto God what is God’s. We have to live by the laws of the lands we live in.
[/quote]

As dmaddox mentioned in the other thread, Christians are commanded to live by the laws of our place of residence. But when the laws of the land conflict with the laws in the bible, what are we going to do?[/quote]

If you are referring to Laws then that is in the Old Testament, and there is nothing wrong with Wars. The Hebrews did it all the time both as agressors, and as defenders.

If you are referring to the New Testament and the thought of Love your neighbor as yourself. I would like to throw out there that Discipline is a form of Love. If your neighbor, universal or actually our next door neighbor, out of Love they might need some discipline. This should be a last resort of course. For example, Sadam Hussein. He murdered his own people because they did not do exactly what he wanted them to do. As Christians should we stand by and do nothing to help these people? I would say Sadam needed a bit of discipline. We tried sanctions, but people went around those, we tried diplomacy but he kicked them all out of his country. What should we have done? God gave us the ability to help those that can not help themselves. As Christians we are to act justly, love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God. To turn the other cheak is a personal idea when you are unjustly dealt with, but when it comes to others if we have the ability to help then I think Jesus would want us to do so. You can argue that Iraq was better off under the Sadam regime, but I think the people over there would say differently. Only time will tell though.

These are just my $0.02 though. I am open for debate on this one though.

[/quote]

As for the old testament the Israelites did go to war against other nations. But it was because God commanded them to destroy the Canaanites, it wasn’t just because they wanted to.

As for your Saddam Hussein example, I’ll have to think about that some more.

26

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
I have to disagree with the point that we can join a military to defend/attack anyone. Christians know, and it has been stated already, that God’s Kingdom is the only solution for mankind’s. Therefore, we must support that kingdom above all else. That being the case, if the Bible says:

Micah 4:3
“He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.”

And notice this event the day before Jesus’ death:

47While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.” 49Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.
50Jesus replied, “Friend, do what you came for.”

Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

This makes it very clear the role we should have in war. [/quote]

wow - some twisting of the scriptures there. Let’s set the record straight:

Micah passage is a prophecy about the inevitable and still to come reign of Christ over the whole world at the end of time and after the final judgement.

The second passage has to be taken in context as well. The soldiers were coming to take Christ before Pilate starting a process that would culminate in his sacrifice on the cross. It was not his intention to avoid the cross, thus he refused to allow his disciples to defend him by force. Because, after all, if he did choose to not go to the cross all he had to do was say the word and more than enough angels would instantly be at his side to protect him from any harm. But he had a goal in mind - Calvary and he would go there no matter the cost.

Sorry, but your passages do not lead to the conclusion you misapplied them to prove. . .[/quote]

Jesus made a point to say that those that take to the sword will die by the sword. This had nothing to do with the fact that he was being taken to die for our sins.

Jesus mentioned, as previously noted, that we should return evil to no one. How can you disregard this simple commandment? Also the simple commandment to love your neighbor as yourself?

And why did you disregard Micah? If that is a future time, then wouldn’t those “christians” that fight in wars be judged as well? Jehovah is showing his view of those that take to the sword is he not?

You can’t just disregard those comments because you don’t agree.

27

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
I started this thread as an offshoot of a hijack in the serious religious debate version2 thread.

The question revolves around the seeming incongruity of Christians being known for their love and the fact that Christians participate in war against other Christians and non-Christians.

First, it is important to note that the Bible is very specific about the fact that Christians are to respond to persecution for their faith with love (turn the other check, bless them which persecute you for your faith, love one another).[/quote]

What scripture is this? All I know is Faith, Hope, and Charity.

[quote]
This does not apply to direct physical threats to property, person or family. Nowhere in Scripture can you find an injuction against protecting yourself and your family from criminal activity or defense of home in times of war.

Now, can the Christian exercise love beyond the proscriptions concerning his faith - certiainly if he or she so chooses - free will again - if you choose to allow someone to steal all of your stuff, rape and kill your family and burn your house to the ground and choose to love that person and refuse to punish or prosecute them - good on you. But it is not required of you by Scripture.[/quote]

Well, Stewardship would kind of hint at protecting your property from loss.

28

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
I started this thread as an offshoot of a hijack in the serious religious debate version2 thread.

The question revolves around the seeming incongruity of Christians being known for their love and the fact that Christians participate in war against other Christians and non-Christians.

First, it is important to note that the Bible is very specific about the fact that Christians are to respond to persecution for their faith with love (turn the other check, bless them which persecute you for your faith, love one another).[/quote]

What scripture is this? All I know is Faith, Hope, and Charity.

[quote]
This does not apply to direct physical threats to property, person or family. Nowhere in Scripture can you find an injuction against protecting yourself and your family from criminal activity or defense of home in times of war.

Now, can the Christian exercise love beyond the proscriptions concerning his faith - certiainly if he or she so chooses - free will again - if you choose to allow someone to steal all of your stuff, rape and kill your family and burn your house to the ground and choose to love that person and refuse to punish or prosecute them - good on you. But it is not required of you by Scripture.[/quote]

Well, Stewardship would kind of hint at protecting your property from loss.[/quote]

To what extent can you protect yourself, or your family? And this is much different than going to war.

29

[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:
I do not think it is wrong to defend yourself against those you try to hurt you or your family. In the US of A, most wars are not fought to defend the country from other attackers. Is it right to engage in violence when it is not in defense.

Preemptive strike are not inline with Christianity.

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
As I stated above, that Jesus says, to render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and render unto God what is God’s. We have to live by the laws of the lands we live in.
[/quote]

As dmaddox mentioned in the other thread, Christians are commanded to live by the laws of our place of residence. But when the laws of the land conflict with the laws in the bible, what are we going to do?[/quote]

Civil Unrest.

30

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
I started this thread as an offshoot of a hijack in the serious religious debate version2 thread.

The question revolves around the seeming incongruity of Christians being known for their love and the fact that Christians participate in war against other Christians and non-Christians.

First, it is important to note that the Bible is very specific about the fact that Christians are to respond to persecution for their faith with love (turn the other check, bless them which persecute you for your faith, love one another).[/quote]

What scripture is this? All I know is Faith, Hope, and Charity.

[quote]
This does not apply to direct physical threats to property, person or family. Nowhere in Scripture can you find an injuction against protecting yourself and your family from criminal activity or defense of home in times of war.

Now, can the Christian exercise love beyond the proscriptions concerning his faith - certiainly if he or she so chooses - free will again - if you choose to allow someone to steal all of your stuff, rape and kill your family and burn your house to the ground and choose to love that person and refuse to punish or prosecute them - good on you. But it is not required of you by Scripture.[/quote]

Well, Stewardship would kind of hint at protecting your property from loss.[/quote]

To what extent can you protect yourself, or your family? And this is much different than going to war.[/quote]

To the fullest extent, killing the aggressor.

31

Did anybody still asking about War actually read the Romans passage which Irish provided?

32

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Did anybody still asking about War actually read the Romans passage which Irish provided?[/quote]
This is from the Interested in Serious religious debate part 2. I didn’t know this thread was here.

Good job D! You seem to be humbly thinking about this and your asking for God to assist you. Well done! I know that religious leaders use the pay Caesar’s thing to Caesar and God’s things to God to justify going to war. But remember Jesus said that only because the religious leaders of his day were trying to trap him. So he meant this in response to their question about paying taxes. Religious leaders also use Romans 13:1 about being in subjection to the superior authorities to justify joining the armed forces and going to war. Notice what the apostles say at Acts 5:29:
“We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”

We should be in subjection to the governments but if a law from a government or human causes you to disobey God one should do the above which is to obey God’s and Jesus’ commandments rather than man’s.

Notice what Samuel said about obeying at 1 Samuel 15:22:
"22 But Samuel replied: “Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.”

Sacrifices was the main way the Israelites worshipped. Samuel under the inspiration of God is saying that he’d rather have his people obey than to offer sacrifice.

Look at the example of the three Hebrews at Daniel 3:18:
“But if not, let it become known to you, O king, that your gods are not the ones we are serving, and the image of gold that you have set up we will not worship.”

They chose death rather than break one of God’s laws.

Notice what Jesus said to his disciples about keeping his commandments at John 14:15:
“15 If YOU love me, you will observe my commandments.”

And John 15:10:
“If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.”

Can you see how it’s a conditional love? The condition is that you observe Jesus’ commandments to remain in his love and if you love him you will observe all]/i] of his commandments.

Notice the NEW commandment Jesus said would be the mark of his disciples:
“I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”

I don’t care how you twist it, spin it or justify it. If you’re willing to take up arms to kill someone of the same faith you are not keeping the command of having love among yourselves.

Furthermore, loving your neighbor as youself is a command as stated at Romans 13:8.
“8 Do not YOU people be owing anybody a single thing, except to love one another; for he that loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 For the law code, “You must not commit adultery, You must not murder, You must not steal, You must not covet,” and whatever other commandment there is, is summed up in this word, namely, “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does not work evil to one’s neighbor; therefore love is the law’s fulfillment.”

If you are willing to take up arms to kill another person then you are not loving your neighbor.

I’ve said this before. According to Matthew 25:31 when Jesus sat on his throne he then turned his attention to the nations and put the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left hand. The sheep are on his right hand because sheeps listen to their shepard, they obey his voice. Goats do not. Goats are unruly and don’t listen well. So he is going to look at people out of the nations and see who is obeying his commandments. He’s not going to reason that “well they have to go to war to fight and kill because thier country told them to.” He is going to look for sheep that are willing to obey him and his father over what men say.

Now this leads to another question. Do you think it is okay to pledge or make a solemn promise or agreement of your allegiance to a country? Do you think God cares when they say “I pledge my allegiance” to a country’s flag which symbolizes a country? Let me put it this way do you think God cares when one makes a solemn promise to be loyal to a country?

33

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]atomsftball37 wrote:

I think that’s pretty conclusive IrishSteel?

[/quote]

No.[/quote]

As a non-christian, I would appreciate a slightly more elaborate explanation as to why AtomicFootball’s quote should not be construed as an abject embrace of pacifism.[/quote]

“Non-Christian” could mean a lot. Have you shared with us what religious, if any, faith you claim? You might have and I simply missed it. Just curious as I’ve noticed you in a few of these threads.

34

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Now this leads to another question. Do you think it is okay to pledge or make a solemn promise or agreement of your allegiance to a country? Do you think God cares when they say “I pledge my allegiance” to a country’s flag which symbolizes a country? Let me put it this way do you think God cares when one makes a solemn promise to be loyal to a country?

[/quote]

You tell me.

Romans 13

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

35

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Now this leads to another question. Do you think it is okay to pledge or make a solemn promise or agreement of your allegiance to a country? Do you think God cares when they say “I pledge my allegiance” to a country’s flag which symbolizes a country? Let me put it this way do you think God cares when one makes a solemn promise to be loyal to a country?

[/quote]

You tell me.

Romans 13

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.[/quote]
Read the scriptures I quoted. The apostles said we obey God as ruler rather than men. So yes they should be in subjection meaning that they should be law abiding citizens following the laws as stated. But when it comes to choosing between obeying God or the rule of man there shouldn’t even be a question as to who you should obey. There are many Bible examples when God’s servants chose to obey God instead of the authorities at the risk of their own life. The first century Christians had to choose between saying "Hail Caesar and throwing incense in the fire to pledge their loyalty to Emperor Nero or face death at the hands of the Gladiators. They chose death.

Sloth, I’m not sure if you’re married but if you are would you want your wife pledging her loyalty to another man and then listening to that man when he told her to do something that you told her not to do? Would that upset you? Would you accept that?

Pledging your loyalty to a nation shows God that you are going to listen to that nation when they want you to do something that breaks God’s law. One is clearly showing God this by taking this oath.

Remember, when Satan offered Jesus all of the kingdoms of the world at that time. He said they had been delivered to him. So that means Satan is in control of all the governments of the world. He exerts his influence on these kingdom in ways we don’t know but the fact that he was able to offer these kingdoms to Jesus shows that he is in control which is why Jesus called him the ruler of this world at John 14:30 and Paul calls him the God of this system of things at 2 Corinthians 4:4.

Religious people really need to think about what they are doing when the pledge their allegiance to a country.

36

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Pledging your loyalty to a wife shows God that you are going to listen to that wife when she wants you to do something that breaks God’s law. [/quote]

Think on it.

37

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Now this leads to another question. Do you think it is okay to pledge or make a solemn promise or agreement of your allegiance to a country? Do you think God cares when they say “I pledge my allegiance” to a country’s flag which symbolizes a country? Let me put it this way do you think God cares when one makes a solemn promise to be loyal to a country?

[/quote]

You tell me.

Romans 13

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.[/quote]
Read the scriptures I quoted. The apostles said we obey God as ruler rather than men. So yes they should be in subjection meaning that they should be law abiding citizens following the laws as stated. But when it comes to choosing between obeying God or the rule of man there shouldn’t even be a question as to who you should obey. There are many Bible examples when God’s servants chose to obey God instead of the authorities at the risk of their own life. The first century Christians had to choose between saying "Hail Caesar and throwing incense in the fire to pledge their loyalty to Emperor Nero or face death at the hands of the Gladiators. They chose death.

Sloth, I’m not sure if you’re married but if you are would you want your wife pledging her loyalty to another man and then listening to that man when he told her to do something that you told her not to do? Would that upset you? Would you accept that?

Pledging your loyalty to a nation shows God that you are going to listen to that nation when they want you to do something that breaks God’s law. One is clearly showing God this by taking this oath.

Remember, when Satan offered Jesus all of the kingdoms of the world at that time. He said they had been delivered to him. So that means Satan is in control of all the governments of the world. He exerts his influence on these kingdom in ways we don’t know but the fact that he was able to offer these kingdoms to Jesus shows that he is in control which is why Jesus called him the ruler of this world at John 14:30 and Paul calls him the God of this system of things at 2 Corinthians 4:4.

Religious people really need to think about what they are doing when the pledge their allegiance to a country.[/quote]

Has Satan ever been know to tell the truth? He stretches and bends the truth. Just because Satan says he in control of all governments does not make it so. God is over everything.

38

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
Pledging your loyalty to a wife shows God that you are going to listen to that wife when she wants you to do something that breaks God’s law. [/quote]

Think on it.[/quote]
Don’t change the wording under my post so it looks like I wrote that.

If there is any uncertainty about whether one should listen to his or her mate over God. Just read 1 Corinthians 11:3 which clearly shows the pecking order.

Also pledging ones allegiance to ones nation in a ceremonial fashion in front of witnesses is showing that you are putting loyalty to your nation above anything else. The pledge does not make an exception for God.

39

So, you can recogzine the ‘pecking order’ for one, but not the other? I’m capable in both instances.

40

And:

Sorry, but my God isn’t fooled. He’s not ‘shown’ anything. I’m not sure about your faith, but in mine, God knows, that I know, the pecking order (as you say).