In NJ you need references to apply for a purchasing permit so it isn’t anything new. It’s also a load of crap.
As I said before, it is impossible to prevent mass casualty events 100% of the time. We do the best we can and sometimes it’s not enough.
And who gets to do the seperating?
Reasonable people like you and I. Neither of us is calling for an outright ban nor are we saying children should be allowed to buy guns at Toys R Us. I would like to think we are in the majority.
Lol, I appreciate the confidence, but I’m not exactly qualified to determine who is crazy (clinically) and who is just plain stupid.
Well, now you’ve officially brought me into your camp. 
In all seriousness, we’ll have to agree to disagree on certain points, but we’re not that far off from each other. My main objection is that there should be no automatic, reflexive hard no on any legislation that might help prevent homicidal maniacs access to weapons that can kill large amounts of people quickly.
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I started referencing this early to Cabs post - when i went though the process of getting my LTC in Mass, I had to provide 2 references - I put my wife and my MIL - I figured if anyone had a reasonable objection it’d be one of them in terms of my ability to responsibly carry and maintain a firearm.
Clearly it’s a state by state issue, but I do not think it’s unreasonable on the personal level…
Does Mass institute some type of punishment for the referrers in the event you go off the deep end? Curious about the severity of being the referrers where it applies
Maybe I should clarify - I think the idea of providing personal references is fine, carbidius’ idea extended that to making those references accountable for crimes committed, which is a much thornier issue (again, applaud the creativity, not sure that I would go for it).
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No … do you think there ought to be? Why?
I would think so. I think that the psych component needs to be explored. I’ve talked to/known a few people with real psych problems from time to time. They are actually experiencing a whole different reality than normal people. One guy I always think of truly believed that he was a warlock and demons were antagonizing him. He finally went too far and attracted the attention of the police, courts, and on into treatment etc.
There has to be a way to prevent mentally ill from obtaining fire arms.
Special Report: Western Psych shootings followed volatile years for John Shick | Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
These are just off of the top of my head (local stories). These folks aren’t stupid. They are severely mentally ill, and it seems to be a recurring theme through out these mass shootings.
One element of Carbs suggestion that I think sounds ok is an extension of the responsibility. Maybe not criminally, but civilly. Something along the lines of being partly liable if you own fire arms and don’t have them stored securely, or sell firearms and don’t diligently vet the purchaser if they are misused.
Unless that already exists. I actually don’t know if it does.
God no. But that was the cornerstone of Cabs idea. Using society to weed out bad eggs by way of giving 1/4th the punishment of said gun criminal to the referrers.
Imo the concept of referrers seems weird/moot if there’s no potential downside to the reference.
In Mass, could I theoretically find some guy on Craigslist to vouch for me? Homeless guy if I give him a 40 oz? Do they validate the person knowing you in some way or is the honor system?
You could probably make a few bucks writing referrals… Hmmm 
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Theoretically. EDIT: I’m actually not sure if that’s legal - I can’t imagine it would be and would probably result from being denied. But again I do not know the legality of that. I really don’t know anyone who would do that in reality. I’m sure some have and might, but I don’t know of anyone who has nor have I heard stories of such a thing…
Keep in mind it takes about 30 to 60 days for review … and they do review and check. I don’t think it’d go as smoothly as on might think going down that road…you also are interviewed at your local precinct and depending on who the approving officer is, that has varying meaning and levels of difficulty.
Also, each municipality can either recommend restricted or unrestricted based on the preference of the approving officer. i.e. it’s a municipal policy who is approved for an unrestricted vs restricted (i.e. who can carry and who can’t, legally). I don’t know of anyone who has had any issues getting approval, but I do have friends in neighboring towns who were only approved for a restricted licence - they can’t carry concealed, for instance.
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Any idea to what extent? Like do they just call the referrers and confirm they know you etcetc?
Yikes
Any idea what some of the criteria are/would be for that kind of restriction? Criminal history or something?
MIL said it was a brief conversation. Asked if she knew me and how. Verified my address, I think…Not very in depth.
There’s a map online with each town’s likelihood or predisposition to whether they’re approve an unrestricted application for the State to review.
Basically if you’re a felon, you’re disqualified off the bat. There are questions on the application that are pointed questions about your arrest history, if you’ve ever appeared in court, have you renounced your citizenship, citizenship status, drug use, if you have any youth infractions, basically any criminal history you may have (again, this goes up to the State for review and investigation).
Keep in mind this is Massachusetts and the process varies state to state - if you’re curious b/c you want to apply, I’d recommend finding a good training class for someone looking to get their licence - the guy I went to gave a good overview of the laws and restriction in terms of magazine limits, storage and banned firearms list…
Massachusetts make it a requirement to go through a basic firearms safety course before you can even apply - it was a 4 hour class with some in depth firearm safety protocols and a strong emphasis on safety of the shooter and being aware of surroundings.
I can’ t speak for Ohio (I think that’s where you’re at) and the experience there could be completely different.
Moreso about the process and whether or not it could be realistically translated to the national level. I don’t currently have plans of owning a gun one day.
Are these done via the state/govt or do ranges/stores get accredited to do the teaching?
I think ohio mandates like a days training and it can’t be more than like 3-5 yrs old. Beyond that it’s just pay the govt (and obv don’t be a felon) and you get your CC permit.
That “citizen militia” thing doesn’t work in practice as it works on paper. Case in point, German invasion of Norway in 1940.
Norwegians were armed and in the initial stages of the invasion they’ve pulled many heroic feats - for example, a group of armed civilians and local hunters near Lillehammer held up a German parachute division for several hours.
However, when outgunned regular forces collapsed, “citizen milita” resistance also stopped, not least for fear of massive reprisals, although Norwegians managed a formidable resistance network and their exiled seamen and soldiers served with distinction in Allied ranks.
The same thing happened in occupied France - despite all those stereotypes about “surrendering French”, the French resistance civilians tried some guerilla style attacks by organized resistance formations on smaller German formations, the results being an unmitigated disaster. Not only were superior German forces brought in to deal with “terrorists” but the civilian population suffered greatly with untold hundreds and thousands shot.
Both the Free French and the Norwegian government in exile discouraged direct military confrontation for fear of reprisals resulting in massive civilian casualties, focusing instead on sabotage.
So what happens if the Chinese (?) invade - Chinese APCs roll through your suburb when some gung-ho neighbor decides to take a pot shot at an APC with his treasured AR-15. The Chinese duly note that and later as part of their zero-tolerance policy towards “terrorism” execute the entire neighborhood, including you and your family.
No one is disputing the encroaching on liberties part. If anything, I’ve highlighted it repeatedly.
Tell me, how did your guns protect you from the NSA?
And people pulled out their guns to take a stand against the inhumane Jim Crow laws?
Oh, I’m sure the federal government will trample on your liberties, as a fact it’s already doing right now. I’m just saying guns won’t help you much.
“Oh, we’ll remove him from the officially non-existent no fly list because he has got a gun”
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I doubt citizens in other states would be keen on it. I don’t see many states electing the likes of Lizzy Warren - especially in the “fly over” part of the country and down south.
Certified instructors through State police approved courses, I believe. I think there are also paths to get certified to teach via NRA courses - or it might be one in the same. What I’ve seen, through a training school near me I’ve gone to, it’d cost between $1000 to $2000 to get certified to teach intro courses (various courses @ $200/course).
Ours expires w/in a year … i.e. if you took the class but didn’t turn in your paperwork, your cert would expire after 1 calendar year and you’d have to retake the class. My MIL took the class but never filed, so she’d have to retake the class if she were so inclined.
Thats how my ole buddy described communist rule in Ukraine.
His stories always ended the same way. “Everybody die. Whole village wiped out.”.
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Yeah I agree. The process doesn’t look like a pill most 2A people would swallow. What’re your personal opinions on it? Would you transition it to country wide given the chance?