University Faculty = Liberals?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Suffice it to say I’m very skeptical of this. Aside my disagreement with the premise based on conservative or liberal mindsets, using your definitions, there are plenty of items in university life that would play to the “conservative” mindset you laid out, particularly the “publish or perish” aspect and the importance of faculty politics, which can be extremely nasty from all I’ve heard.

You’d be surprised how many political liberals are CEOs of major corporations – I’d definitely wager the percentage is a lot higher than the number of conservatives on the English Lit faculty at any given state university on either coast. Of course, that’s just my impression – I don’t think there’s been a major study of CEOs, and corporate donations to politicians tend to hit both parties due to self interest.

BTW, I’m not arguing that there is no self-selection bias in effect – I’m just saying that I doubt it’s strong enough to explain the huge disparities one sees on university faculties.
[/quote]
Agreed! I just offer this explanation as one of many possibilities–my true liberal nature coming through, I guess–and underscore–I always use generalizations when explaining concepts to students or otherwise! The difference is that I explain the generalization being used and why I deem it appropriate. I would never state a generalization to be 100% true.

And yes the political side of university life can boggle the mind–however, I BLAME democrats for the overly bureaucratic processes.

Publishing is just the nature of professorship. To teach at a college level a Ph.D. is not necessary; however, once one recieves a Doctorate of Philosophy there are certain requirements to either become a professor or maintain status as a professor (BTW I am not a professor–nor do I expect I will ever be). How can one claim to be a professor of anything if they cannot further their field of expertise to their respective communities? I feel that you meant the competitive nature of publishing in your example…is this the case? I don’t really notice this in my field because everyone works together. It is uncommon for only one physicist to get credit for publishing an article without acknowledgment of fellow colleagues. This could be true in other fields but I can’t speak to its accuracy or not.

[quote]vroom wrote:
OMG, stop the presses, it must be a conspiracy!!!

Weren’t we talking about tin foil hats just the other day? Now I see the real reason you plan on cornering the tin foil market…[/quote]

No, not a conspiracy. As I’ve explained many, many times before, there is a difference between a conspiracy, which necessarily involves a bunch of people coordinating for some common purpose, and the aggregate effect of a bunch of individuals acting according to their own individual biases, whether purposefully or not.

I would think you’d be one of the first to understand this, given it’s the argument that underpins the idea that government should take action against racism. [FYI, there’s nothing wrong with the argument, provided it’s actually a measurable effect and it’s not due to some other cause – the key is whether you have actual causation].

[quote]hspder wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
3) Perhaps the label of “Conservative” vs. “Liberal” were somewhat “different” in the early and mid parts of the last century than now?

Yes it was.

The most extreme example is that, technically, the German Nazi Party was Liberal.

Also remember that, for example, in those times Blacks saw the Republican Party (the Right) as “their” party, mainly due to Lincoln’s legacy; only in the 60’s the Democrats (the Center-Left) saw the opportunity to attach themselves to the Civil Rights Movement and took it.

In Europe, the “Liberal” label is attached to parties that sit somewhere in the RIGHT and believe in a totally free market and small government.

OTOH, the few remaining Marxist parties are labeled “Conservative”.

That’s why I prefer to talk in left vs right-wing, since that’s a more universally accepted slang, both across space (country) and time.
[/quote]
Why dont people understand everything is traced back to rich and poor. We forget this because of our thriving middle class. Democracy was born out of the despair of poor working people at the hands of rich people. Left wing- the corperations are subject to regulation -Right wing- big business is given free reign to exploit the enviroment and workers.
While both the democratic and republican parties are full of corperate interests, the republicans seem to always support bills that favour the rich.

Boston,

If it isn’t some dire conspiracy, then who really cares?

Are you suggesting that some type of affirmative action policy should be adopted for the poor downtrodden conservatives?

You aren’t becoming a closet liberal too are you?

Pookie,

In a manner of speaking sure, now that I’ve cornered the market, I need to drive up demand.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Unfortunately, these types of “inherent mindset” arguments don’t speak well to the change that has been measured over the last twenty years – unless somehow the inherent mindsets also changed during that time.[/quote]

Yes they do, BB. There are several reasons for that:

a) Today, more than ever, it is much easier and more profitable to go into the business world than into academia. Since Reagan, being a professor has become harder, more demanding, and less rewarding. So talented Conservatives naturally feel even more attracted to a world that they like already in principle, than to get themselves into a world that offers them a lot of pain with little reward. Before there was a better reward, so they came; as the rewards vanish, they vanish with them.

b) As I explained before, Academia has grown great resentment towards Republicans because they have, in the past two or three decades, shown little or no interest in research. Even our relatively moderate Governator has done that. So many people who were actually right-leaning have moved to the left, out of resentment.

c) Specifically in the pure and applied sciences, there is also a lot of resentment towards some theories that mostly (though not all) Conservatives defend. I’m talking about the Religious Right here, who has done a lot of damage to the Academia’s perception of Conservatives, further pushing to the left people that were center and center-right.

To summarize: Conservatives distanced themselves from Academia in the past couple of decades, and pushed away centrists there to the left.

Now, having said that, I want to make clear one thing: I know plenty of Conservatives who would make EXCELLENT professors. However, NONE, and I mean NONE of them are remotely interested in it. They’re happy with their place in the business world.

By the way: there is also an overwhelming majority of liberals among Doctors and Nurses. Some of my most vocal liberal friends are MDs and RNs. The reasons are one and the same: Conservatives just prefer to make their money elsewhere.

[quote]vroom wrote:
However, I think there would be enough interested individual conservatives that I think the miniscule level of overall participation of conservatives in academia for the humanities cannot be simply the result of an aggregate self selection of conservatives away from academics. This is particularly true when one considers that there are a great many conservatives who have gone to “think tanks” from what are essentially liberal arts backgrounds – think tanks don’t pay particularly well either.

Boston, I’m afraid this is all very anecdotal and opinion based. This very bias issue has been raised before.

As the recent post above states, true academia is all about questioning the state of affairs and looking for alternatives, whereas conservatism is more about having beliefs and values and wishing them preserved.

Real academia is about research and getting published. How would you suggest melding peer reviewed scientific research and conservative viewpoints together such that they would be more compatible?[/quote]

Vroom: I think that both sides are equally biased towards their viewpoints.

Its only natural that you will naturally defend/beleive in your opinions which are biased.

As far as academia go, i would really think that it would be human nature more often than not to , at least unconscioulsy (sp?) , experiment to probe your beleifs. Again, if most people are opininated one way or another then this statement would say that they really aren’t that open to new ideas as a self-protection kind of thing both liberals and conservatives. I’ve just been astounded at the liberals that proclaim themselves to be open-minded but really aren’t…

[quote]vroom wrote:
Boston,

If it isn’t some dire conspiracy, then who really cares?

Are you suggesting that some type of affirmative action policy should be adopted for the poor downtrodden conservatives?

You aren’t becoming a closet liberal too are you?

[/quote]

vroom,

I think that for the university to function properly and to function as it claims it wishes to function, then in areas in which political persuasion is either a cause or effect such that it produces theories or subjects that are important for discussion, then universities should hire professors who research, write and instruct in those areas.

It’s simply a matter of doing a proper job of education – particularly at public universities, when it’s on the government’s (aka the people’s) dime.

For places that are so loud about their commitments to diversity, they seem to have abandoned the only kind that really matters as far as education goes: diversity of ideas. The idea of “affirmative action” hiring is incorrect, at least how I interpret affirmative action. The key would be covering your academic bases when seeking to hire faculty, not simply adding more people to areas and/or theories that already have critical mass – particularly when the areas are disputed. BTW, I think this is far more important in non-quantitatve subjects than in hard sciences or math-driven econ.

hspder,

I think there is definitely SOME self-selection going on whereby conservatives “opt out” of careers in academia – but I just don’t think it can explain the level of disparity in some departments (particularly the soft and squishy humanities and some of the soft sciences).

Here’s an excerpt from another law prof who looked at the underlying study and specifically addresses self-selection (he writes well and he’s already gone through the trouble of putting it all down, so here ya go):

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_08_28-2005_09_03.shtml#1125339674

EXCERPT:

The authors also claim, “It is difficult even to imagine ideological discrimination occurring at the point of hiring.” This naivete again demonstrates the authors blind spot occasioned by their own narrow world view. There are a multitude of ways in which ideological discrimination manifests itself in hiring. The most obvious is simply the degree of skepticism that incumbent faculty apply to a given scholar’s work. If they disagree with the ideological conclusions of the work, they approach it with greater skepticism and a higher burden of proof, and thereby it is easier to conclude that the analysis is flawed or incomplete. Again, this difference is reflected in the fact that the more subjective subjects (Philosophy, History, English, etc.) have greater ideological disparities than less-subjective subjects where standards of scholarly rigor are better-established and have an independent integrity that separate the craftsmanship of the field from the conclusions. (Some have observed that within political science itself, for instance, the more scientific quantative researchers have less ideological bias as well because of the indepdent standards of analysis applied there: Campus bias (Signifying Nothing: how does saying nothing at all become so loud?) ) Other biases easily creep in as well–does the candidate do work that is “relevant” to the interests of the department, “collegiality,” or common research interests. To say that “it is difficult to see how ideological bias” could creep into hiring is simply naive and perhaps just evidences the lack of self-awareness by the researchers themselves.

Even if this is self-selection, this is not necessarily responsive–when the elite academy is confronted with other examples of “underrepresented” interests, they do not simply throw up their hands and complain of a shallow talent pool. Instead, at Columbia for instance, the diversity committee ( Columbia News ) is “tasked with finding ways to strengthen the pipeline bringing women and minority students into the University’s undergraduate, graduate, and postdoctoral programs” and not merely take what the pipeline produces.

Based on my personal experience having known many bright students in many different fields (I meet many undergraduates and graduate students through IHS Seminars at which I lecture), I would say that if there is self-selection here, it is of precisely one type–libertarian and conservative students self-select out of pursuing an academic career because they are well aware of the political obstacles that will be placed in their way. They know that they will confront ideological bias at every stage of their careers–grad school, grad school mentoring to help get jobs, entry-level jobs, and tenure. Given the numbers reported by Klein and others, they are clearly acting rationally in refusing to invest 5 years of their lives to get a PhD to try to roll this stone up that hill.

Finally–and I’m less confident about this–conservatives may be disproportionately turned off by the fundamental “unseriousness” of the modern academy. Conservatives may simply prefer the real world, with its mechanisms of accountability, merits-based determinations, and focus on solving real problems. The emptiness and triviality of so much modern scholarship (especially in the humanities) and the marbeling of every element of academic culture with the burdens and distractions associated with running the modern university–political correctness and its restraints on free inquiry, the whole edifice of the diversity machine and all it carries with it. The upward struggle to persuade colleagues to judge job candidates fairly and on the merits, rather than through the ever-present lens of political orientation and identity/diversity politics.

So the self-selection, if there is one, may be more along the lines of Michael Barone’s distinction between “hard” and “soft” America–perhaps conservatives are more prone to self-select into the “hard” America of the private sector, where accountability is stronger and individuals are more likely to rise or fall on their own individual merits, rather than trying to survive in the bizarre ecosystem of the modern academy.

In conclusion let me add a thought–it seems utterly absurd that people are still making uninformed armchair speculation about the causes of the prevailing ideological imbalance in the academy. Is it self-selection? Conservatives are greedier? Conservatives are dumber? When it comes to addressing the issue of other “underrepresented minorities” on college campuses, the record overflows with high profile blue ribbon panels of leading scholars and administrators. No stone is left unturned and no penny left unspent to try to determine why women are “underrepresented” in teaching math and science, or the underrepresentation of minorities. I think maybe it is time to take even a small percentage of those tens of millions being spent at places like Harvard and Columbia and perhaps do a study of the causes of the ideological disparity in the academy, rather than simply speculate and pontificate. At the very least, such a study would eliminate some of the more preposterous hypotheses (such as the idea that conservatives generically like money more than liberals or that conservatives lack the intellecutal frame of mind to succeed in academia).

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
At the very least, such a study would eliminate some of the more preposterous hypotheses (such as the idea that conservatives generically like money more than liberals or that conservatives lack the intellecutal frame of mind to succeed in academia).[/quote]

You have right here proof that you’re chasing your tail on this discussion – you see here a guy immediately rejecting two possibilities just because he believes they MUST be preposterous. He’s basically proving the point as he tries to dismiss it.

They’re not preposterous. Even if they do not explain all of it, they do explain most of it.

And as vroom says, until you show me a Conservative that can testify he was discriminated against in academia based SOLELY on his political inclination, this discussion is not going anywhere…

[quote]hspder wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
At the very least, such a study would eliminate some of the more preposterous hypotheses (such as the idea that conservatives generically like money more than liberals or that conservatives lack the intellecutal frame of mind to succeed in academia).

You have right here proof that you’re chasing your tail on this discussion – you see here a guy immediately rejecting two possibilities just because he believes they MUST be preposterous. He’s basically proving the point as he tries to dismiss it.

They’re not preposterous. Even if they do not explain all of it, they do explain most of it.

And as vroom says, until you show me a Conservative that can testify he was discriminated against in academia based SOLELY on his political inclination, this discussion is not going anywhere…
[/quote]

You actually believe that and claim to be an open minded academic. You can’t see the humor in your own statements? We all can.

You must have been dissapointed when your bretheren refuted eugenics.

Boston,

By your posts, it seems like you are more concerned with the promotion of conservatism than allowing market forces to shape where people choose to go.

You, of course, shy way from calling it affirmative action for conservatives, but you feel it important that political viewpoints be widely represented on campus.

So, then, obviously, we need quotas for the religious right, the non-religious right, the moderate centrist right, the libertarian, the communist, the anarchist, the socialist, various brands of theocratist, and of course balancing quanties for the left.

What a crock of shit. Maybe you should allow that sometimes things can happen for non-political reasons, without the involvement of a conspiracy.