U.S. Decent Cars, Why Not?

Off Topic
61

[quote]miniross wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
KnightRT wrote:
Here’s a thought for those of you referencing the BMW V10:

500 HP SAE @ 7,750 rpm
384 ft lb @ 6,100 rpm

Redline: 8000 rpm

EPA fuel estimates: 12/18 mpg
Weight: 240 kg (529 lbs)

Now here’s the Corvette Z06 engine:

505 HP SAE @ 6300 rpm
470 ft lb @ 4800 rpm

Redline: 7000 rpm

EPA fuel estimates: 16/26 mpg
Weight: 208 kg (458 lbs)

And one more thing… the 'Vette engine is physically smaller than the BMW.

So, let’s sum. More power. More torque. Better fuel economy. Sustantially less weight. Smaller dimensions. All this, from GM.

Somehow that BMW engineering doesn’t look quite so impressive anymore, does it?

DI

interesting

Wha is the displacement of it?

And the other thing is, i guess, drivabilit. Does the vette have the sprwead of power. Th BM would be a pussy cat at town driving (big issue here), and also switches from 400 to 500 at the tuch of a button.

The vette enine is very impressive with those figures, but that really is only part of a package.

Maybe thats the prblem, building cars around power plants rather that wholistically engineering them. This is a problem that many UK firms had. This is why they are now defunct.[/quote]

The displacement of the ZO6 engine is 6.0 liters. It probably gets 30 mpg highway (at least my uncle’s C5 does, which is a 5.7 liter LS1) and maybe 18-20 city or something like that. Not bad IMO (better than my car…).

Also, building a car around its powerplant is logical to me. Weight of the engine, power output, mounting placement, etc. all need to be considered when building the car, so it comes out decent. If they just built the vette how it is now, but substituted the 6.0 V8 for a smaller, turboed V6 or I6, that could throw off the weight distribution of the car, and affect handling characteristics, traction, etc. At least, that’s how I see it.

Also, what do you mean by “spread of power” with the vette? If you’re talking about the power band, I’m sure it’s good (for around 70k, it better be), and I’m sure you can find power almost anywhere in the RPM range of that engine.

Lastly, I think American car makers are painting themselves into a corner (with the exception of Daimler Chrysler, and it’s underling, Dodge, who offer both cheap cars that still have some performance, like the SRT-4 for example, and also the usage of old mercedes transmissions, etc.). Ford and GM/Chevy just got nothing to offer, and it’s killing them.

62

[quote]
The displacement of the ZO6 engine is 6.0 liters. It probably gets 30 mpg highway (at least my uncle’s C5 does, which is a 5.7 liter LS1) and maybe 18-20 city or something like that. Not bad IMO (better than my car…).

Also, building a car around its powerplant is logical to me. Weight of the engine, power output, mounting placement, etc. all need to be considered when building the car, so it comes out decent. If they just built the vette how it is now, but substituted the 6.0 V8 for a smaller, turboed V6 or I6, that could throw off the weight distribution of the car, and affect handling characteristics, traction, etc. At least, that’s how I see it.

Also, what do you mean by “spread of power” with the vette? If you’re talking about the power band, I’m sure it’s good (for around 70k, it better be), and I’m sure you can find power almost anywhere in the RPM range of that engine.

Lastly, I think American car makers are painting themselves into a corner (with the exception of Daimler Chrysler, and it’s underling, Dodge, who offer both cheap cars that still have some performance, like the SRT-4 for example, and also the usage of old mercedes transmissions, etc.). Ford and GM/Chevy just got nothing to offer, and it’s killing them.[/quote]

For the most part european cars will always have a better TQ/HP curve than basically any other car. the Vette able to hit such great MPG because of the gearing more so because of the way the engine is designed. Stock gearing on the vette will clear 200 no problem, and than theres a solenoid in the transmission that will direct the shifter into 5th rather than 3rd if you have under a programmed % of engine load. So again, better gas milage.

63

Ah, a few of you caught on to the Vette/M5 comparison. Here’s an addendum…

2006 Z06 Engine:

7.0L
7000 RPM
505 SAE HP @ 6200 RPM
470 lb. ft. @ 4800 RPM

HP/liter: 72.1

2002 Z06 Engine:

5.7L
6600 RPM
405 SAE HP @ 6000 RPM
400 lb. ft. @ 4800 RPM

HP/liter: 71.0

Interestingly, these figures show the new Z06 will actually go quicker if it’s short-shifted.

The MPG comparison was unfair, but I made it anyway to make a point. The reason the Z06 has better numbers is not because it’s more efficient than the BMW. Wound up, they both make terrible numbers.

It’s because, in 6th gear at 80 MPH, while the BMW is at 3000 RPM, the Vette engine is loafing at 1800 RPM. When you have gobs of torque, you can do that.

In terms of tractability (‘spread of power’), the BMW engine is actually quite soft below 4000 RPM, particularly in comparison to the supercharged Mercedes 5.5L. The Z06 slots right in the middle.

Finally we come to NVH (noise, vibration, harshness). The Corvette engines are intended to be loud and obnoxious. But they don’t necessarily have to be. The Cadillac CTS-V used that from the 5.7L Z06, and not a single journalist on either side of the pond panned it for sound or feel, even in comparison to the BMW M3.

Well done, I’d say.

DI

64

[quote]KnightRT wrote:

It’s because, in 6th gear at 80 MPH, while the BMW is at 3000 RPM, the Vette engine is loafing at 1800 RPM. When you have gobs of torque, you can do that.
[/quote]

Ha… Since when was 400 lb/ft torque not “gobs of torque”?

65

Dude, there’s LOTS of great american cars… The 'vette, the viper…

and need I mention the Ford GT?

Let’s remember one thing - when American car manufacturers make a supercar/sportscar, they make a badass car. when they go to make a sedan, they make a cheap, mediocre POS, because average joe doesn’t need more - if he did, he’d buy a GT instead.

Now, European car makers have tried to marry the two - making big luxurious sedans that can perform quite well. They’re just marketing to different consumers - each has their own nice. American cars? for corporate fleets and poor people, and the badass cars for the rich guys who want to have fun. European cars? Upper middle class to the more wealthy who have a practical mindset.

Is a Ford GT practical? FUCK no, but it’s a badass car. Is an M5 practical? sure, AND it’s a badass car. Which performs better? take a wild guess - the GT. Which would I presonally rather own? well, I’m kinda practical - the M5.