[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Gun Control translated:
Trying to understand why people kill each other and attack that problem is hard, and doesn’t have striking emotional appeals. So lets focus on how people are killing each other because then I can use an emotional argument to pretend I actually care, when it’s obvious I don’t because I’m not willing to look at the why, just the how. [/quote]
progressives use emotional sensationalism to push their agenda with every issue, not just guns.
[quote]Silyak wrote:
I’m not aware of the details of how the gun was obtained in this case, but often the shooters in mass shootings obtain their guns illegally. So simply making it illegal for them to own guns would not have changed anything. [/quote]
Reports yesterday stated he purchased it legally, right after the Charleston, SC church massacre. So, for argument’s sake, maybe tighter background check legislation would have prevented him from obtaining it as easily, in a rage of haste. But, it looks like this guy was hellbent anyway and would have gotten a gun either way. So I guess that shoots down (no pun intended) my argument right there. /shrugs/
Right, which means policymakers need to draft something meaningful and concrete…I have no knowledge of previous legislative attempts at this.
True, but you can’t outrun a bullet…you have a chance to outrun a knife attack. Or in the least fight back. Even if the cameraman had a gun on him, he had zero chance in reacting before his co-worker was already shot to death. Shit’s just sad.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
This is a lot of the issue and the cause of a lot of the frustration.
Gun owners talk about this all the damn time, and the people that want to remove our rights, never ever do.
Here we have a group of people (poor inner-city men) killing each other on the regular, who are being lied to by politicians who are buying their votes and not doing any of the help they promised, focused on by LEO (for a variety of reasons, and one of which is that yes, some cops, like all groups of people, are racist, but that is far from the biggest factor) and left out in the skirts of society…
All these inner-cities are gun control paradises like Australia BTW.
No one cares until it’s an inter-racial killing. No one cares until a loony snaps and kills some kids like a fucking scum. But once those things happen that allow them to push for their government control fetish, THEN they care, because they add the inner-city violence on the rest of the countries violence and make dumb fuck statements like “countries with a 10th of the population, no diversity and entirely different social and economic systems don’t have this problem”.
You are a reasonable dude, and it’s appreciated. But when it comes to the gun control “national conversation” you’re jumping into a hot tub that has had people fornicating in it for decades… And those of use looking to support the civil rights of all Americans are pretty fucking tired of having to actually defend Rights. Particularly from foreign lefties that are complacent being a subject to their government, ignorant of the typical history of governments. [/quote]
I hear you. And I couldn’t help but notice, while watching all of this unfold yesterday, that the media portrayed the typical response to white people being slaughtered, yet simply flip through story after story when it’s inner-city instances (even if two equally promising lives as those two yesterday were killed). I’m white, and it kinda rubbed me the wrong way while watching all the coverage. Not trying to turn this into a race debate, but it hits home on the point that shit like this happens every second of every day, and if it’s inner-city, it gets washed over.
[quote]Aero51 wrote:
The issue is with mental heath, our current culture (we have much less close relationships than we did even 50 years ago, thanks to social media), and the economy. [/quote]
Spot on. I would expand on the current culture point, but well put.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
Modern media has had no impact on the cultural views of guns vs. the times of muskets? Please.[/quote]
900k+ babies sliced up and vacuumed out of the womb a year. Left’s response: It’s a right!
9k people die in gun homicides a year. Only when it isn’t black on black violence, the left’s response: we have a gun culture where we idolize the gun! Ban them!
Inner-city black men slaughtering themselves because of bullshit like the War and Drugs and Democrat policy in those very cities, no one bats a fucking eye. Joe Smith wants a factory standard magazine and the entire country loses it’s fucking mind.
The media is far from the issue. [/quote]
Great post.
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
Legislation could serve as a short-term solution as part of the larger picture. [/quote]
I’m really tired of this band-aide approach to issues, aren’t you? A generation will have to, at some point, put in the work to actually fix certain problem like the violent culture of inner cities like Charm City and the state of mental health in this country.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
Legislation could serve as a short-term solution as part of the larger picture. [/quote]
I’m really tired of this band-aide approach to issues, aren’t you? A generation will have to, at some point, put in the work to actually fix certain problem like the violent culture of inner cities like Charm City and the state of mental health in this country. [/quote]
Or just keep playing the blame game until the Stasi show up… wait, not stasi… i mean realization of the liberal utopia
I hope you guys realize this isn’t an issue about left/right/black/white/muslim/jew/etc. This type of ideological [lack of] thinking is directly responsible for the state of the nation. As citizens we have a responsibility to vote for competent officials. Without critically thinking while voting, we lose our ability to uphold this responsibility…hence where we are today.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
Legislation could serve as a short-term solution as part of the larger picture. [/quote]
I’m really tired of this band-aide approach to issues, aren’t you? A generation will have to, at some point, put in the work to actually fix certain problem like the violent culture of inner cities like Charm City and the state of mental health in this country. [/quote]
Until someone comes out with a concrete plan to address the underlying issues, that’s all there ever will be: band-aide approaches. My question then is: how to we address the “mental health” side? And don’t just say it’s up to the personal domain. There needs to be a tectonic shift in the focal point and scope of which we view mental health. And I’m not just talking the unstable ones. But of course, that may end up taking us right back into the vortex of the other socioeconomic topics/debates.
[quote]Aggv wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
Legislation could serve as a short-term solution as part of the larger picture. [/quote]
I’m really tired of this band-aide approach to issues, aren’t you? A generation will have to, at some point, put in the work to actually fix certain problem like the violent culture of inner cities like Charm City and the state of mental health in this country. [/quote]
Or just keep playing the blame game until the Stasi show up… wait, not stasi… i mean realization of the liberal utopia [/quote]
The same can be said for the realization of the conservative utopia as well…though instead of blame it’s often outright dismissal.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]Silyak wrote:
Also, would this guy have made the attack anyways if he couldn’t get a gun. And how successful would he have been? The video shows that he is able to get very close and draw the gun without them noticing. At that range, a knife is probably just as effective (although filming might be more difficult). It’s speculative, but bears consideration. [/quote]
I thought of that too, since it was done on air probably for dramatic purposes a knife might have been more effective.[/quote]
The video also shows an important lesson in being aware of your surroundings. The man approaches the interview clearly in the peripheral vision area of the woman being interviewed. Has his gun extended then pulls it back and doesnt fire his first shot until multiple seconds later.
I am not trying to place any blame on one of the victims, just want to point out how being aware of surroundings could have helped impacted the situation.
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
This is a lot of the issue and the cause of a lot of the frustration.
Gun owners talk about this all the damn time, and the people that want to remove our rights, never ever do.
Here we have a group of people (poor inner-city men) killing each other on the regular, who are being lied to by politicians who are buying their votes and not doing any of the help they promised, focused on by LEO (for a variety of reasons, and one of which is that yes, some cops, like all groups of people, are racist, but that is far from the biggest factor) and left out in the skirts of society…
All these inner-cities are gun control paradises like Australia BTW.
No one cares until it’s an inter-racial killing. No one cares until a loony snaps and kills some kids like a fucking scum. But once those things happen that allow them to push for their government control fetish, THEN they care, because they add the inner-city violence on the rest of the countries violence and make dumb fuck statements like “countries with a 10th of the population, no diversity and entirely different social and economic systems don’t have this problem”.
You are a reasonable dude, and it’s appreciated. But when it comes to the gun control “national conversation” you’re jumping into a hot tub that has had people fornicating in it for decades… And those of use looking to support the civil rights of all Americans are pretty fucking tired of having to actually defend Rights. Particularly from foreign lefties that are complacent being a subject to their government, ignorant of the typical history of governments. [/quote]
I hear you. And I couldn’t help but notice, while watching all of this unfold yesterday, that the media portrayed the typical response to white people being slaughtered, yet simply flip through story after story when it’s inner-city instances (even if two equally promising lives as those two yesterday were killed). I’m white, and it kinda rubbed me the wrong way while watching all the coverage. Not trying to turn this into a race debate, but it hits home on the point that shit like this happens every second of every day, and if it’s inner-city, it gets washed over.[/quote]
I think the coverage had more to do with the fact that it was a news crew filming a live TV spot when it happened. I don’t think the fact that the victims were white had a damned thing to do with it.
Is it a coincidence that the number of spree killers and general wackos has sharply increased with the rise of social media? Within 5 minutes of something like this happening the internet is ablaze and everyone wants to find out who did it and why. Naturally people will keep doing this shit because it makes them famous. From anti-social, over-medicated losers to terrorists promoting their manifestos, they all just want to be in the limelight.
Guns aren’t the problem. Guns have been around for a very long time. Anyone have a timeline showing the frequency of mass shootings in the US over the last 100 years? I’d be willing to bet the vast majority have occurred in the past 10-15 years. And how come people only talk about a few countries when they talk about the effects of gun control? I am Australian but was born in Russia - Russia has very strict gun control and very high gun crime. Same with places like Brazil (strict gun control, 40,000+ gun deaths a year). Sure these places aren’t first world Western countries, but it shows that gun control does nothing on its own, it requires a lot of resources and a lot of manpower to try to enforce (and you will never succeed). Good luck trying to round up the 300 million+ guns in the US (and good luck to anyone that ever tries to invade).
As an aside, I really wish we had gun rights in Australia. We have shootings every day in Sydney yet cuckolds still swarm all over news articles writing smug comments praising our gun buyback scheme. They’ve recently banned the import of an Adler lever action because it can fire 8 rounds in 8 seconds and is therefore too deadly for mere mortals. The Justice Minister said that gun technology has evolved and therefore so must our laws, despite the fact that a lever action is about 150 years old. I weep for this country.
[quote]Iron Condor wrote:
Is it a coincidence that the number of spree killers and general wackos has sharply increased with the rise of social media? Within 5 minutes of something like this happening the internet is ablaze and everyone wants to find out who did it and why. Naturally people will keep doing this shit because it makes them famous. From anti-social, over-medicated losers to terrorists promoting their manifestos, they all just want to be in the limelight. [/quote]
Great point, and probably has a likelihood of validity to it. Social media feeds the desire to do something extreme and have it be displayed worldwide within seconds. I’ll try looking up the Google to see if there’s been any scientific evidence of that correlation.
[quote]Iron Condor wrote:
Russia has very strict gun control and very high gun crime. Same with places like Brazil (strict gun control, 40,000+ gun deaths a year). Sure these places aren’t first world Western countries, but it shows that gun control does nothing on its own, it requires a lot of resources and a lot of manpower to try to enforce [/quote]
And that’s what I noticed about a lot of the guns vs. murder/violence reports out there. There always seems to be an underlying catch to the high-level statistic, that essentially balances the playing field of the two main variables being studied.
Guns may very well not be THE issue, but it ain’t exactly helping matters either.
[quote]OldOgre wrote:
I think the coverage had more to do with the fact that it was a news crew filming a live TV spot when it happened. I don’t think the fact that the victims were white had a damned thing to do with it. [/quote]
I know, and I agree…I was talking more in stream of consciousness earlier. Race didn’t have anything to do with the style of media coverage yesterday. Yesterday was an absolute game changer for three reasons: (1) People witnessed murder happen LIVE, (2) the killer provided video of his first-person perspective, (3) the victims were the media. Truly a twisted turn of events in society on all accounts.
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
Legislation could serve as a short-term solution as part of the larger picture. [/quote]
I’m really tired of this band-aide approach to issues, aren’t you? A generation will have to, at some point, put in the work to actually fix certain problem like the violent culture of inner cities like Charm City and the state of mental health in this country. [/quote]
Until someone comes out with a concrete plan to address the underlying issues, that’s all there ever will be: band-aide approaches. My question then is: how to we address the “mental health” side? And don’t just say it’s up to the personal domain. There needs to be a tectonic shift in the focal point and scope of which we view mental health. And I’m not just talking the unstable ones. But of course, that may end up taking us right back into the vortex of the other socioeconomic topics/debates.[/quote]
Well, a lot of it does come down to the individual / family unfortunately. Short of required mental health exams, which still wouldn’t diagnose everyone, those closet to these people have to be the first line of defense.
I’ve got an idea, lets take all of the funding currently going to Planned Parenthood and allocate it to mental health research and treatment facilities. That’s a start.
*Side note, I don’t think this particular case has anything to do with mental health, but we’ll see.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Well, a lot of it does come down to the individual / family unfortunately. Short of required mental health exams, which still wouldn’t diagnose everyone, those closet to these people have to be the first line of defense.
I’ve got an idea, lets take all of the funding currently going to Planned Parenthood and allocate it to mental health research and treatment facilities. That’s a start.
*Side note, I don’t think this particular case has anything to do with mental health, but we’ll see. [/quote]
I knew you’d say it 
But yeah, the home front is where everything starts…true. However, if you don’t correct the stupid in the current generations, you’ll just get the trickle-down effect to their kids. Which begs the question: is any of this even correctable? Hell, even if y’alls greatest fear of a socialist state occurred and everyone had free healthcare, and open access to doctors and corresponding mental health specialists, you’d STILL have a number of these psychos leak through the system.
My true understanding of Planned Parenthood and its inner workings is weak, so I can’t comment on whether I’d agree with re-appropriating those funds from there. However, your idea is a great one in general.
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
Guns may very well not be THE issue, but it ain’t exactly helping matters either.[/quote]
But, realistically, how would you get rid of them? Many (most?) people won’t hand them in, or will only hand in relatively few (or just sell off shitty hi points/zip guns for $100 a pop at buybacks). Gang members and thugs will get them the same way they always have - illegally. And even with all the mental health screenings and background checks in the world, could you really foresee this guy going full batshit psycho: RESUME FINAL 032113 - YouTube
Also relevant: Nearly One Million New Yorkers Didn't Register Their 'Assault Weapons'
[quote]HeyWaj10 wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Well, a lot of it does come down to the individual / family unfortunately. Short of required mental health exams, which still wouldn’t diagnose everyone, those closet to these people have to be the first line of defense.
I’ve got an idea, lets take all of the funding currently going to Planned Parenthood and allocate it to mental health research and treatment facilities. That’s a start.
*Side note, I don’t think this particular case has anything to do with mental health, but we’ll see. [/quote]
I knew you’d say it
But yeah, the home front is where everything starts…true. However, if you don’t correct the stupid in the current generations, you’ll just get the trickle-down effect to their kids. Which begs the question: is any of this even correctable? [/quote]
I honestly don’t think kids today are anymore stupid than in the past. You just see it more because of social media. Young people do dumb things. That was true 200 years ago as it’s true today.
Is the current situation correctable, sure it is, but it’ll take the people correcting the various issues, not government mandating corrections (imo).
[quote]
Hell, even if y’alls greatest fear of a socialist state occurred and everyone had free healthcare, and open access to doctors and corresponding mental health specialists, you’d STILL have a number of these psychos leak through the system. [/quote]
You make socialism seem like all peaches and cream… People will always spill through the cracks, it’s inevitable.