If we go by the bible, it sure seems wrong. The bible talks about justice a lot. In the old testament it is an eye for an eye type justice system.
Eternal punishment for a finite crime does not fit that standard of justice. I find that a being who would have a punishment infinitely worse than the crime to not fit the bible’s definition of loving.
Um, without God there is no objective ‘wrong’ to even judge a god. That would just be your non-binding opinion. If God exists, well he, not you, makes the absolute determination as to what is wrong.
And we’re back to avoiding the asked questions.
At least it’s good to know if someone believes God will eternally torture people it’s ok because the terrorist decides what’s wrong! We can’t begin to understand how his holiness can be cool with eternal torture. His love is just too much for us to fathom.
Because I would assume feeling the eternal torture of hell isn’t pleasant, regardless of how it’s experienced.
But you’re forgetting the 3rd part of that triangle, which is your perception of it and/or value system in the afterlife. Changing god and heaven aren’t the only 2 variables. Changing you is the 3rd one.
This is also an important distinction. One of the many reasons it’s so hard to “beat” religion is that it’s got an all powerful god with no limits or flaws. Perfect/right/wrong is whatever she says it is.
God isn’t a terrorist in this analogy. She’s the judge at your trial.
Unfortunately she’s also Congress and POTUS, so she’s writing the laws and THEN passing judgement. But she’s absolutely working within the confines of “fair” by her standards
I reject that god provides objective morality. Exodus 21 states that slavery is permissible, and that one can beat their slaves as long as they don’t die within a week.
The inspired word of god (the bible) has some terrible things in it. I would hope a secular system that prioritizes the well being of of its citizens, could do better than that.
Not sure how that addresses my point. Ok, you judge God differently than I. And? If God doesn’t exist his alleged actions aren’t wrong. If he does, they aren’t
I like to call God a terrorist by this definiton:
“unlawfully using violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.” Political aims being worship or whatever God “wants.”
God is writing the laws which no one understands and agrees upon and then passing judgement on how everyone did on the test no one could figure out. And instead of failing and retaking the test we get tortured for eternity. Tough teacher, but all that love 
Unlawfully? We’re talking about God.
If god is writing the laws it’s not unlawful. It’s not especially against civilians, it’s equal across all. Not in the pursuit of political aims, but in pursuit of personal aims.
He doesn’t meet that definition by any part lolol
Well we’re trying to do that. Just believers conveniently skipping large parts of questions directed at them because they can’t attempt answers at them. Maybe they can’t see because all that love. Or the fear of eternal torture if they answer wrong.
It’s hard to keep up. I’m pretty sure I had water sprinkled on my head instead of a full on dunking. I hope that won’t lead to my eternal torture by the most loving thing around.
We agree (mostly). We are talking about something that has not been discovered, and any thing could be possible. We disagree on the bible’s definition of a soul, and that is fine.
I was working off of you being a theist, and the assumptions I made, many of my theist friends make (most of them protestant). We went down a long rabbit hole, and I think we only really disagree on some assumptions about imaginary things.
I realize the whole argument is worthless if we don’t share the same assumptions.
Edit: I am actually glad I got to hear the perspective of someone who grew up catholic. Most I know are protestant (I think the definition of the soul is much different between the two).
It may be lawful, but it is not benevolent. It does not match even with the justice standards described in the old testament (which by almost any standard is backwards).
An infinite punishment for a finite crime is the most sinister thing I can think of.
Those standards are for us.
I sure hope not. I am against many things in the bible. To list a few: Slavery, the killing of homosexuals, the killing of disobedient children.
Do you think we should allow these things?
If God requests it, absolutely. But, I’m operating under the new covenant as a gentile.
I’m not mincing words here. It is God’s perogative to erase all of creation for even one offense against his will. I said as much earlier.
Without God there is no objective right or wrong to judge my response. Feel free, but you might as well tell me your favorite color is different than mine.
And, if there is a God, then whatever he asks of us is right.
That’s also assuming the crimes are finite. An unrepentant heart of an eternal soul might be properly seen as an infinite crime.
Indeed. In addition the idea of heaven runs hand in hand with the idea of a transformative body (whether physical or mental/emotional) for those who follow. It’s not a stretch to think that our perspectives could be transformed as well, since that is in fact what usually happens in small ways throughout life as we learn and mature. We change our outlook. Often also around the same time we go through a transformative event emotionally or mentally (divorce, affair, car crash, or different positive equivalents).
As humans our perspective and desires are intimately tied to our mental, physical, and emotional states. Change one and you can very likely change others.
So slavery? Not like it hasn’t been justified by the Bible before anyways. And he can erase us all for doing something he doesn’t like I understand. Sounds better than eternal torture. Definitely a cool guy to follow. Man more appealing by the second.
I just can’t get over all the love.
I really have no interest in becoming part of an existential philosophical thread, but this comment is in trouble. If heaven exists then whatever created it is indistinguishable from God from the perspective of us humans, because it is so far above our ability to conceive of it that it effectively doesn’t matter. Therefore for all intents and purposes it may be termed God.
This is very similar to the famous Arthur C. Clarke quote “any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic” (to those who are unfamiliar with it).
I’m not trying to make God appealing. God isn’t an otherwise isolated friend I feel sorry for, so I feel some need to makes friends for him on his behalf. He’s the ruler of all creation. I’m less than an amoeba is to me. I ain’t trying to sell you God. I am just starting my beliefs in a conversation. You reject God, even if he is real. I hear you loud and clear.
And, if he doesn’t exist, all moral judgements against him are meaningless and mere opinion as there are no objective moral truths.