Why bother if your LH/FSH are good now?
[quote]JLWilson wrote:
[quote]pcdude wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
[quote]mmg_4 wrote:
This is ILLEGAL. You cannot have two docs script a schedule 3 Drug. THis is terrible advice dude, seriously why would you give this advice?[/quote]
Because it works.
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Regardless of the legality, it seems like this would give you the worst of both worlds - high E2 conversion due to the spikes in T due to the large injections, and increased DHT conversion due to the transdermal.[/quote]
Some people LIKE the high conversion to DHT; at least those not susceptible to male pattern baldness. DHT is not that bad. Dr. C attributes the high success rate of transdermals in resolving libido issues due to the high conversion to DHT. However, High DHT+High E2=Prostate problems.
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Yeah, I take Arim designed for animals for E2. None of my scummy docs would prescribe it, said it was a scam.
LMAO ohhh brick. Half a tab of clomid + androgel for 8 yrs is brick’s story.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]JonBlood wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]KSman wrote:
Clomid has really nasty estrogenic side effects for some.
[/quote]
Not for me. Half a tab of Clomid brought my T value from 240 to 790 ng/dl over the course of 4 wks and I felt like a million bucks!
I might be wrong, but from my understanding, clomid does not raise estrogen, but is a SERM. [/quote]
I may be mistaken but youre Androgel right? Why are you using that if the Clomid worked so well for you.[/quote]
I only used clomid for a few months, then switched to Androgel, which I’ve been on ever since, for past 8 yrs.
Androgel works great. I just got my lab result last wk and I’m at 779 ng/dl. I usually test about 800 to 1000. My doc hooked me up with an Androgel discount card. I <3 Androgel.
He said he’ll switch to clomid or HCG if the time comes I want a kid.
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It does increase estrogen, but at not as much of a rate as testosterone. This results in a higher t/e ratio than you started out with.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]KSman wrote:
Clomid has really nasty estrogenic side effects for some.
[/quote]
Not for me. Half a tab of Clomid brought my T value from 240 to 790 ng/dl over the course of 4 wks and I felt like a million bucks!
I might be wrong, but from my understanding, clomid does not raise estrogen, but is a SERM. [/quote]
Yes, but the point is that when you stop a SERM suddenly, T drops and residual E2 shuts you down. All of this started with my specifying that SERMs need to be tapered out and explaining why. Now we are dancing with that not been understood. The discussion was not attempting to address what goes on when on.
However, if one produces high amounts of LH, the effect of that may be the same as high dose hCG which can drive E2 levels very high. Your point may not be universally true. But we have no data except that some have high T levels with SERMs and we do not know what the E2 levels were in those cases.
So you’re saying: SERM to start the restart, adex to keep it going?
Adex keeps the loop “open”… The dosage would require ultra titration because you would have to start off at the lowest possible dosage and then titrate slowly upward. If you do too much, you’ll feel worse, have to titrate upwards, estrogen rebound, and loop is closed. All for naught. If one is an ultra responder to Adex, this option may not work. E2 dosaging is already difficult enough even when you know what your T levels will be if you’re on a strict injection schedule. This protocol provides no margin for error and requires the user to know the exact adex dosage they require as soon as they quit the SERM. Also, non-TRT males will have fluctuations in their T levels due to stress, acing a test, boning a hot chick, so the Adex would have to be adjusted as such.
Lets take anastrozole dosing issues and over responders off of the playing field. We already have a lot of knowledge concerning those issues.
Anastrozole when dosed properly is never going to open loop the HPTA, so we will take open loop off the field as well. Only SERMs can be expected to open-loop the HPTA.
It has been well established that ‘normal’ guys not on TRT typically do well on 0.5 mg/week anastrozole. This keeps there E2 levels in HPTA friendly territory. In most of these situations we are not getting E2 labs as we do with TRT subjects.
As for not knowing where the T levels are and AI dose matching, the alternative is drifting back into HPTA repression and back to the low T levels where things started.
We are hoping for a HPTA restart and moderate T production, which is suitable for 0.5mg/week.
If TT, FT and E2 labs are done, then the dosing can be properly adjusted, just as done with TRT. I do not see you raising these objections in a TRT context.
The alternative in a restart is not landing on low dose anastrozole and having estrogen rebound cause HPTA shutdown and then all of the time and effort for a restart has been lost.
Yes, one could start with a lower dose, but if one gets shutdown, you loose again.
You are asking for all to be known and that there be no risks, this is not life.
As for events that increase T, that would imply that they have a working HPTA restart. Yes, T levels can vary and E2 levels can vary. That happens to all normal males.
[quote]JLWilson wrote:
LMAO ohhh brick. Half a tab of clomid + androgel for 8 yrs is brick’s story.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]JonBlood wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
[quote]KSman wrote:
Clomid has really nasty estrogenic side effects for some.
[/quote]
Not for me. Half a tab of Clomid brought my T value from 240 to 790 ng/dl over the course of 4 wks and I felt like a million bucks!
I might be wrong, but from my understanding, clomid does not raise estrogen, but is a SERM. [/quote]
I may be mistaken but youre Androgel right? Why are you using that if the Clomid worked so well for you.[/quote]
I only used clomid for a few months, then switched to Androgel, which I’ve been on ever since, for past 8 yrs.
Androgel works great. I just got my lab result last wk and I’m at 779 ng/dl. I usually test about 800 to 1000. My doc hooked me up with an Androgel discount card. I <3 Androgel.
He said he’ll switch to clomid or HCG if the time comes I want a kid.
[/quote]
[/quote]
It is my story, and thank god it’s so simple.
Yeah you’re definitely one of the lucky few! Maybe you were just patient enough. Didn’t it take over a year till u felt anything?
[quote]JLWilson wrote:
Yeah you’re definitely one of the lucky few! Maybe you were just patient enough. Didn’t it take over a year till u felt anything?[/quote]
Not til I felt anything. I said it took about a month to feel a little better. And then gradually, over the course of a year, I felt better and better until I felt like myself again.
Keep in mind, I was walking around for a year and half before I found the right doctors. Everyone else overlooked my problem. I was miserable! Impotent, flabby, weaker, smaller, depressed, and tired.
Even when my T values were normal in the first year, I kept wondering what the hell was taking so long to feel like my old self. My doc told me it would take some time to feel 100%. He gave me Viagra the first time I saw him for help with erections because it might take some time to get things fully going again.
Thanks for the hijack guys! Anyway…What kind of pct should I present to my doctor? Now that my prolactin is low and I’m no longer on TRT he wants to see how much Test I can naturally produce.
Good point!
In general
Start 0.5mg/wk anastrozole in divided EOD dosing to get a HPTA friendly level of E2. Understand anastrozole over-responders.
And add hCG to recover bulk and firmness of the testes, 250iu SC EOD for 40 days weeks, then switch to nolvadex 20mg/day, no need taper off of the hCG. Nolvadex will get the top end of the HPTA working to release LH and FSH. Then after 3 weeks on Nolvadex, test T&E2 levels and start tapering off of the Nolvadex. Cruise on the 0.5mg/week anastrozole for a month or so then taper or stop. Then test T&E2 a month later to see what happened. When you get off of anastrozole, test later again to see if estrogen is up and T down. Some guys not on TRT stay on low dose anstrozole, typically 0.5mg/week. E2 labs are needed to make sure things are done right.
If you get a 5000iu vial of hCG, that will provide 20 doses, lasting 40 days.
Your doc may want to use clomid, but there is a chance that that might mess you up.
When on hCG or a SERM, your testes are needing your general health and vitality as well as DHEA to get the job done. You might need DHEA supplements.
When on hCG or after stopping Nolvadex, if your nipples become active, increase your dose of anastrozole. If severe, also get back onto Nolvadex until the gyno event seems over, then with the higher amount of anastrozole dose, taper out of Nolvadex and try again.
If this all fails and your T levels were good before stopping the SERM, consider hCG+AI.