Isn’t elevated SHBG positively correlated to elevated estradiol. In other words you only have so much E2 free. The balance will be tied up in protein or SHBG.
Do you see high E2 and low SHBG? That would be strange and indicate higher levels of free estradiol.
The Crisler comment was based on the strange coincidence that we were discussing the impact of dropping anastrazole and then a highly prominent member of the community does just that and within a month is not with us. I really don’t want to comment more on this right now out of respect for the family during their time of greiving. I do not know him or his family.
I do wish the family my deepest condolences and will reiterate that my comments are not intended to link anything. In retrospect I should not have mentioned this.
Dr. Crisler made an outstanding contribution to this area of practice and he should be commended for just that…
First let me say welcome to the forum. I enjoy reading your posts and it is very refreshing to see a position that has not been bent by bro-science or the group think going on in this forum lately.
As to your question do I see low SHGB and high E2 well what would you consider low SHGB?
An you know this forum not only talks about natties and TRT but also the recreational use of testosterone. So my answer would vary in natties no in TRT yes and in cycling or blasting (((YES)))
Then it should also be remarkable that he suffered a heart attack two years ago while on an AI.
If you followed him on FB you know he was doing way more than TRT. No 60 years old makes a body like that on 120mg/wk TRT protocol. IMO that heart attack came from cycling and he cooked his heart. Heavy use of T is not healthy in anyway it just lets you build big muscles. Nothin more.
If you go find his video in how to sub-Q where the blood runs out of his ab he admits taking more than TRT. IMO the AI had nothing to do with his situation.
I’m not on FB, are you saying he came clean about steroid abuse? I hadn’t heard that. He had a good physique but nothing that screams heavy anabolic use.
I second this theory. This is the first I’ve heard about low SHBG guys being moody/sensitive, but it would make sense: I have a super high SHBG and am on the opposite side of the spectrum, feel stoic all the time, never very high or low.
@NH_Watts we are derail this thread. So this is my last post on the subject. Do you go to a public gym and do you know what 60-65 year old natty men look like? If so compare them to this. I am 65 and blast and I don’t look like this. God rest his soul.
My dear bride like to tell how I’m not street smart. When I first read your post I though you were talking about cycling as in aerobic bicycling. I was thinking, yes that could be possible - steady state cardio increases inflammation, oxidation stress, lowers sex hormones (while shrinking your junk) and just plain sucks. I guess she its a good thing I didn’t go into law enforcement.
People think your immune from genetics and bad health once you start TRT. Oh god the T killed him… people die. Everyone dies. Some good some bad.
Where are all the reports of dead folks who stopped ai on these boards. How about the docs out there who stopped and there clients stopped. They would of changed there stance by now if people were dying from normal e2 ranges haha…
I get it, but don’t forget that the conversation started when ai were suggested without any other options. With respect your post made me realize you were not informed and were either against the new protocols or did not realize all of the new protocols to manage e2. I felt the need to interject and open my mouth.
My goal was to enlighten you and others that there are other options than life long dependence on yet another medication. Along with why it could be beneficial and not harmful as we were led to believe.
Now that we have new info pointing to new protocols we should absorb and pass it along to our fellow men. It’s nice to have more than one option vs no other options but to take this medicine which was made for women with cancer.
Hey everyone,
Thanks for everyone who commented. I have learned a lot from this thread.
I start my regimen on Friday. I will let you all know how it goes.
@enackers what are other ways of managing E2 that you have researched? Other then AIs, adjusting dosages, and losing fat? There is so much conflicting info out there.
The resident endo, @physioLojik recommends a healthy liver to clear estrogens.
Some have suggested daily warm lemon water, 4oz a day of pure cranberry juice (not from concentrate), DIM and Calcium D Glucarate have worked for some on this board, but not others.
I’m sure there are others I’m missing that smarter posters have mentioned. Search around, I think there was a thread similar to your question not long ago.
Not many more that I’ve heard. My doc told me scrotul cream is great n don’t need to worry about estrogen . I just started it and will update my thread in a couple weeks.
Makes complete sense. Estradiol activates the sympathetic nervous system. High SHBG means that most of your E is combined, leavihng you with the clinical effect of lower estradiol.
Few female fat deposits, possible suseptibility to acne, lower libido, fatigue are some of the issues with male estrogen deficiency. Besides the cardiac issue we discussed earlier, one of the biggest problems with chronic elevated estradiol in men is the proliferation of fibrous tissue in the prostate. This increases size.
The prostate capsule is maintained by free test. The internal gland by DHT. Having low T and elevated estradiol (as a ratio - it doesn’t necessarily need to excessively high if T is low) results in growth of the fibrous stroma cells in the prostate leaving you with benign prostate hyperplasia. A 5 alpha aromatase inhibitor is generally not the best first choice. When decreasing DHT to the prostate, initially it will shrink slightly however; over time it will become inflamed as the DHT is required to maintain the gland.
Depending on gender of the fetus, this structure becomes either the prostate or uterus. It might make sense why it tends to be sensitive to estrogen in males.
Sidebar:
Tren’s night sweats are caused by anabolic induced cortisol deficiency. The cortisol deficiency is exacerbated by the pineal gland’s release of melatonin. This further reduces cortisol resulting in significant metabolism of Thyroid T4 to T3. The free T3 increases body temperature and heart rate…
I have a sence now that we are saying the same thing. When new to a community certain things may appear to have inappropriate emphasis. My initial take was that most were saying blocking conversion to estradiol was a bad thing, period. It now appears that most are opposed to prescribing low dose arimidex with the first dose of T. That seems very reasonable.
As a side note, I have discovered something new from you chaps that deserves some additional comment if any of you don’t mind kicked the horse a few more times. We know that estradiol stimulates the sympathetic nervous system, increases energy levels (this is a crude oversimplification) and is the most potent stimulator of libido (as long as T is also present).
What is unclear from this discussion is the following:
Does and aromatase inhibitor directly inhibit libido or does it’s inhibitory action on testosterone metabolism (ie decreasing conversion to estradiol, pushing the reaction toward DHT. Lastly the push toward DHT will have the result of neutralizing some of remaining estradiol.
This is a critical point. If the inhibitor has additional properties beyond its inhibitory activity on metabolism, then I for one would appreciate a better understanding of this process. I require a higher than average weekly dose of T to maintain my serum levels in the high normal on a trough day. This typically means estradiol can run higher than I want. My anastrazole is also a bit higher than I want. It would be nice to whack this medicine, particularly if it ramps up libido.
Anyone have thoughts on this.
Are you chasing numbers here? We tend to go by how you feel at certain levels and eschew the dogma of number chasing.
@episodic, are you working in the medical field?
I was right there with you @enackers until you mentioned female cancer again. You really should do some research on men and boys gynecomastia. More get it than you think and it is treated with drugs like tamoxifen (Soltamox) and aromatase inhibitors like anastrozole.
Do a google search for “treatments for young men with gyno” and be amazed. AI’s and drugs like tamoxifen (Soltamox), raloxifene (Evista)are not just for women with cancer. Doc’s have been using them for years to stop man boobs esp in obese young boys.
AI 's are not the same thing a chemo.
I am replying to your earlier reply to me indicating that you were bringing me up to speed on the latest protocols.
Please note that I am always open to this. Of course some will be offended. I have a fairly decent understanding of the science and come to these sites from time to time to learn more. The T tends to make us all a bit more competitive than we might be otherwise. I just want you to know I appreciate your effort.
Of course I may or may agree (as I would expect you to do with any post I have made).
It’s also not always easy to put away the customs we believe are based on science. When working in an area of medicine that clearly falls into the chronic rather than acute therapies, it inherenly means the cost to understand the long term impact of any action is incredibly expensive. This leads to panels of experts providing a consensus opinion that is accepted as standard of practice. Disagree and they simply ostracize the offending professional or simply label them as a quack. Either could be correct. This leaves us sorting out the details, particularly in a area of practice that is incredibly important but i ignored for the most part because doing anything else requires an intensive team to support the doc.
I hope you gentlemen have a pleasant day. I’m late for an apt.