Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man

Thank you for that. That is how we view the spirit. We view it just that way: God’s SH’KHINAH, or God’s Holy Spirit. From my reading there and, of course, my own research, that word SH’KHINAH carries the meaning of “that which dwells” or “the dwelling” and doesn’t in any sense carry the idea of it being a person. Even the way it is used, it carries the idea that someone own’s it.

“Thy Shekinah to dwell”
“make the glory of Thy Shekinah to dwell among them”
“because God’s Sh’khinah gives its light”

The last quote from THE KINGDOM INTERLINEAR TRANSLATION OF THE GREEK SCRIPTURES is very telling. Revelation 21:22 identify’s God as Jehovah (Yehovah) and then later in the verse calls it “God’s Sh’khinah” or God’s Holy Spirit. Spirit in itself carries with it the meaning of breathe or blow. Take all that information you provided, along with the Greek and Hebrew meanings and you come up with the Holy Spirit being the “breath” of Jehovah, and not a seperate person in a Godhead.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I have to change my earlier statement. YHWH - The Father, W - Holy Ghost, and Word Made Flesh - �??�??�??�??�??�??�??�??�??�??�??�?�©�??�??�??�??�??�??�??�??�?�¢ or Yehosua/Yeshua which means God Our Savior.[/quote]

I don’t understand. Something seems to have come through wrong.[/quote]

Sorry, I can type Hebrew, but obviously T-Nation doesn’t like teh hebrew.

[/quote]

Ah, gotcha. Now, I would like to point out a correction. Yehosua/Yeshua does not mean God Our Savior. It means Yahweh or YHWH is Savior/Salvation.[/quote]

No, it means both “Salvation” and the “Lord who is salvation.”[/quote]

What part are you disagreeing with me on?[/quote]

That is doesn’t mean Yahweh is Savior. Jewish people named their sons Yeshua, because everyone wanted their son to be the Messiah. Jewbacca can either correct me on this if he wants, or support me.

However Yahweh means, literally “Lord who is salvation.”[/quote]

You are incorrect.

For those following along:

Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH means “he causes to become” (a modified version of the verb-to become-). It can also mean “the existing one” as was found here:

Jesus, Yeshua means “Jehovah is Salvation” as are found both here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/...m?strongs=G2424

and here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/...H3091&t=KJV.

I have yet to see a name for the Holy Spirit. So, again, Father=Jehovah; Son=Jesus; Holy Spirit=no name. Really brings into question whether or not the holy spirit is a person. Why would the other two “godheads” have a name but the holy spirit not?

This is in HARMONY with the idea that Jehovah is the ONE TRUE GOD and that Jesus is not. Jesus’ name gives honor and respect to HIS God, Jehovah. The two are not of the same being, they are not equal.

If anyone can disprove this, feel free. (with real sources, not mere explanation)

Orinally Brother Chris was explaining (with no proof, scriptural or otherwise) that the Godhead was called Jehovah, and that the father didn’t have a name. I questioned this strongly and now he is of the opinion that the father does indeed have a name. And that name is what I have been saying it was, Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH.

Now, because Jesus says that the Father’s name should be hallowed (Mt 6:9), the name that we should sanctifying is indeed Jehovah. Jehovah is the name that should be receiving our praise.

Which is one reason why we are called Jehovah’s Witnesses.
[/quote]

Sorry, I mean Yeshua. However, Yahweh just means G-d. Yeshua means literally “Lord who is salvation.” Sorry for the mix up.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Sorry, I mean Yeshua. However, Yahweh just means G-d. Yeshua means literally “Lord who is salvation.” Sorry for the mix up.[/quote]

That is incorrect. Yeshua means literally “Jehovah is Salvation”.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Sorry, I mean Yeshua. However, Yahweh just means G-d. Yeshua means literally “Lord who is salvation.” Sorry for the mix up.[/quote]

That is incorrect. Yeshua means literally “Jehovah is Salvation”.[/quote]

Okay, well I’m going to believe a Hebrew speaking Rabbi before I believe a Jehovah Witness that doesn’t spell or say Yahweh correctly. Lord who is salvation. I’m a stickler when it comes to Hebrew, I have a stern resistance to accepting non-Jewish translations of Hebrew, and as well, if they don’t have their credentials in Hebrew I have a hard time believing them.

I probably got my stubbornness about Hebrew back when I was thinking about becoming a Jew.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Sorry, I mean Yeshua. However, Yahweh just means G-d. Yeshua means literally “Lord who is salvation.” Sorry for the mix up.[/quote]

That is incorrect. Yeshua means literally “Jehovah is Salvation”.[/quote]

Okay, well I’m going to believe a Hebrew speaking Rabbi before I believe a Jehovah Witness that doesn’t spell or say Yahweh correctly. Lord who is salvation. I’m a stickler when it comes to Hebrew, I have a stern resistance to accepting non-Jewish translations of Hebrew, and as well, if they don’t have their credentials in Hebrew I have a hard time believing them.

I probably got my stubbornness about Hebrew back when I was thinking about becoming a Jew.[/quote]

Well where is your source?

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Sorry, I mean Yeshua. However, Yahweh just means G-d. Yeshua means literally “Lord who is salvation.” Sorry for the mix up.[/quote]

That is incorrect. Yeshua means literally “Jehovah is Salvation”.[/quote]

Okay, well I’m going to believe a Hebrew speaking Rabbi before I believe a Jehovah Witness that doesn’t spell or say Yahweh correctly. Lord who is salvation. I’m a stickler when it comes to Hebrew, I have a stern resistance to accepting non-Jewish translations of Hebrew, and as well, if they don’t have their credentials in Hebrew I have a hard time believing them.

I probably got my stubbornness about Hebrew back when I was thinking about becoming a Jew.[/quote]

Well where is your source? [/quote]

Sorry, I don’t give my friend’s names out.

I can say that he is an Orthodox Jew/Rabbi from Israel, speaks Hebrew as his first language and Yiddish (plus English) and became a scholar in Torah/Biblical Hebrew/Hebrew in Israel, and came to America and went to MIT to get his masters. That is how I know him (he was visiting family here, and I knew his niece).

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Sorry, I mean Yeshua. However, Yahweh just means G-d. Yeshua means literally “Lord who is salvation.” Sorry for the mix up.[/quote]

That is incorrect. Yeshua means literally “Jehovah is Salvation”.[/quote]

Okay, well I’m going to believe a Hebrew speaking Rabbi before I believe a Jehovah Witness that doesn’t spell or say Yahweh correctly. Lord who is salvation. I’m a stickler when it comes to Hebrew, I have a stern resistance to accepting non-Jewish translations of Hebrew, and as well, if they don’t have their credentials in Hebrew I have a hard time believing them.

I probably got my stubbornness about Hebrew back when I was thinking about becoming a Jew.[/quote]

Well where is your source? [/quote]

Sorry, I don’t give my friend’s names out.

I can say that he is an Orthodox Jew/Rabbi from Israel, speaks Hebrew as his first language and Yiddish (plus English) and became a scholar in Torah/Biblical Hebrew/Hebrew in Israel, and came to America and went to MIT to get his masters. That is how I know him (he was visiting family here, and I knew his niece).[/quote]

You know that if I ever gave out a source like that I would be attacked up and down. I mean, even when I provide sources they are discredit for one reason or another. That being said. I respect your privacy. I also feel comfortable knowing that I gave enough information to show that the trinity is not a scriptural teaching (yes, I know you disagree, but disagreeing doesn’t mean the data is a lie) and that if someone still chooses to believe it, that it is a personal decision made by that person and as Galatians 6:5 says “we are each responsible for our own conduct.”

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Sorry, I mean Yeshua. However, Yahweh just means G-d. Yeshua means literally “Lord who is salvation.” Sorry for the mix up.[/quote]

That is incorrect. Yeshua means literally “Jehovah is Salvation”.[/quote]

Okay, well I’m going to believe a Hebrew speaking Rabbi before I believe a Jehovah Witness that doesn’t spell or say Yahweh correctly. Lord who is salvation. I’m a stickler when it comes to Hebrew, I have a stern resistance to accepting non-Jewish translations of Hebrew, and as well, if they don’t have their credentials in Hebrew I have a hard time believing them.

I probably got my stubbornness about Hebrew back when I was thinking about becoming a Jew.[/quote]

Well where is your source? [/quote]

Sorry, I don’t give my friend’s names out.

I can say that he is an Orthodox Jew/Rabbi from Israel, speaks Hebrew as his first language and Yiddish (plus English) and became a scholar in Torah/Biblical Hebrew/Hebrew in Israel, and came to America and went to MIT to get his masters. That is how I know him (he was visiting family here, and I knew his niece).[/quote]

You know that if I ever gave out a source like that I would be attacked up and down. I mean, even when I provide sources they are discredit for one reason or another. That being said. I respect your privacy. I also feel comfortable knowing that I gave enough information to show that the trinity is not a scriptural teaching (yes, I know you disagree, but disagreeing doesn’t mean the data is a lie) and that if someone still chooses to believe it, that it is a personal decision made by that person and as Galatians 6:5 says “we are each responsible for our own conduct.”
[/quote]

I’ll find another source for you. Just give me a second. I was just on the phone with him at the time, and didn’t want to get distracted by trying to find a source.

Rabbi Jacob Neursner

Forbes, I haven’t heard from you since my last posts. I am curious to see what you thought of the Michael point, as well as my rebuttal to your last post.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Rabbi Jacob Neursner[/quote]

Does he have any email address where I could ask him directly his view of both YHWH and Yeshua? Because Yeshua does not mean God is Salvation, and I am curious how he could draw that conclusion.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Rabbi Jacob Neursner[/quote]

Does he have any email address where I could ask him directly his view of both YHWH and Yeshua? Because Yeshua does not mean God is Salvation, and I am curious how he could draw that conclusion.[/quote]

Sorry, I took a phone call and accidentally pasted that and submitted.

Although he’d be a good person to contact about it as he’s a scholar in Hebrew. Went to Hebrew University, Jerusalem, professor of Hebrew, &c.

Brother Chris, do you have that other source for the meaning of YHWH?

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Brother Chris, do you have that other source for the meaning of YHWH?[/quote]

Yeah, the Bible. YHWH is the tetragrammation of Yahweh, which is God’s name.

Scripture proving the Trinity:

“Then God said, â??Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…â??” (Gen. 1:26).

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19).

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)

“But Peter said, â??Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.â??” (Acts 5:3-4)

“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (2 Cor. 13:14).

Scripture proving the Divinity of Jesus:

“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called â??Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peaceâ??” (Is. 9:6).

“Simon Peter replied, â??You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.â?? And Jesus answered him, â??Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heavenâ??” (Matt. 16:16-17).

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1).

"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58).

“â??I and the Father are oneâ??” (John 10:30).

“For in him [Christ] the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily” (Col. 2:9).

“In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power …” (Heb. 1:1-3).

"But of the Son he says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom…And, “Thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of thy hands.” (Heb. 1:8, 10)

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
All quotes provided below are prior to the 4th century AD.

Ignatius of Antioch

“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with Godâ??s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

“[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

Aristides

“[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit” (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]).

Tatian the Syrian

“We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man” (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).

Melito of Sardis

“It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages” (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinaiâ??s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]).

Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

“Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth” (ibid., 3:19:1).

Clement of Alexandria

“The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginningâ??for he was in Godâ??and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things” (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

“Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the expiator, the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son” (ibid., 10:110:1).

Tertullian

“The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born” (The Flesh of Christ 5:6â??7 [A.D. 210]).

“That there are two gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord” (Against Praxeas 13:6 [A.D. 216]).

Origen

“Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God” (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]).

Hippolytus

“Only [Godâ??s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God” (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]).

Hippolytus of Rome

“For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new” (ibid., 10:34).

Novatian

“If Christ was only man, why did he lay down for us such a rule of believing as that in which he said, â??And this is life eternal, that they should know you, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent?â?? [John 17:3]. Had he not wished that he also should be understood to be God, why did he add, â??And Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent,â?? except because he wished to be received as God also? Because if he had not wished to be understood to be God, he would have added, â??And the man Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent;â?? but, in fact, he neither added this, nor did Christ deliver himself to us as man only, but associated himself with God, as he wished to be understood by this conjunction to be God also, as he is. We must therefore believe, according to the rule prescribed, on the Lord, the one true God, and consequently on him whom he has sent, Jesus Christ, who by no means, as we have said, would have linked himself to the Father had he not wished to be understood to be God also. For he would have separated himself from him had he not wished to be understood to be God” (Treatise on the Trinity 16 [A.D. 235]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit] . . . " (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

“There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal. . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever” (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

[/quote]
I know this thread is old, but these quotes still amaze me

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
I know this thread is old, but these quotes still amaze me[/quote]

What amazes you about these quotes?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
I know this thread is old, but these quotes still amaze me[/quote]

What amazes you about these quotes? [/quote]
That they speak of the deity of Christ and have not been lost in history.

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
I know this thread is old, but these quotes still amaze me[/quote]

What amazes you about these quotes? [/quote]
That they speak of the deity of Christ and have not been lost in history.[/quote]

That’s Catholic record keeping for you.