Trinity - Bible Teaching or Doctrine of Man

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1001

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
<<< frankly, seems like you want God to be impossible to draw close to. (my opinion, not fact) >>>[/quote]Oh no no no my dear friend and here is where we part company. A god who does not exist, such as the false idolatrous one worshiped by the WB&TS is impossible to draw close to. Actually, outside the blood of a Jesus who is God the Son, the true and living God is impossible to draw close to as well.

However, once He raises a man up in His own resurrection, makes that man aware of just how filthy and finite He is, God Himself draws close to him. This is NOT an intellectual exercise though the intellect is not disengaged. See what you just said? A God who is incomprehensible to you is impossible to draw close to. It is YOU who are on the outside, living in bondage to your own small fallen mind (mine is too).

Repent of this despicable idolatry. Confess it and and turn to He alone who is able to save and that to the uttermost. His fellowship and love is sweeter than anything. He lives in me and I say and pray with Paul that “for me to live IS Christ and to die is gain”. Philippians 1.
[/quote]

Oh no! You just have to do it tirib’s way or you’re going to HELL! God hates fags! God hates Catholics! God hates Jehovah’s! God hates every one who doesn’t folow the westboro baptist church and it’s satellites! Tirib’s god is a god of hate.

That is the abominations he preaches.

I disagree with you honest, but I in no way condemn you.

[edit]~ I don’t condemn you because I don’t have that right, authority, or anything that would even remotely give me that right…I don’t mean to condescend. I think your a good dude even though we disagree.
The good news is, we’ll all find out one day…I am sure we all at least a little wrong.

1002

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
A question I would like you to reflect on is this: Father’s name: Jehovah; Son’s name: Jesus. What is the Holy Spirit’s name? If they are all individual people (and, as you suggest, the most powerful people in the universe) wouldn’t all 3 of them have names?
[/quote]

I’ll answer! God has many names, I don’t think his name is particularly relevant, he’s much bigger than a name… God’s spirit is part of God, his spirit is who he is, and his way of reaching us spirit to spirit. His son is his way of submitting to humanity. It is to humble himself to reach out to us.
Think about this, what if you had to reach out to dogs and explain baseball. To do this, you had to become a dog and you have to explain a concept they are not equipped to understand. How do you do it?

1003

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
A question I would like you to reflect on is this: Father’s name: Jehovah; Son’s name: Jesus. What is the Holy Spirit’s name? If they are all individual people (and, as you suggest, the most powerful people in the universe) wouldn’t all 3 of them have names?
[/quote]

I’ll answer! God has many names, I don’t think his name is particularly relevant, he’s much bigger than a name… God’s spirit is part of God, his spirit is who he is, and his way of reaching us spirit to spirit. His son is his way of submitting to humanity. It is to humble himself to reach out to us.
Think about this, what if you had to reach out to dogs and explain baseball. To do this, you had to become a dog and you have to explain a concept they are not equipped to understand. How do you do it?

[/quote]

Pat, I will agree with you on this part: God has many different… and then it splits :slight_smile: But on a serious note. God says in the Bible that he has many titles and he has many different attributes. His power balances with his justice which balances with his love. We get tangled on the idea that Jesus is in the same being as Jehovah. To us (Jehovah’s Witnesses) we just don’t see them as the same individual. We have many texts that we share to show that with others.

I have been trying to understand the belief of the Trinity, and it seems that people want to give sooo much credit (rightly so) because of everything he has done for us that he must be God. And if he isn’t referred to as such it is insulting to him. However, you would (if you were to go to any of our meetings, assemblies, conventions) be able to see just how highly we view Jesus. We know that Jesus left us a model to follow his steps closely. We study very closely what we Jesus did on earth, and what qualities of Jehovah he was reflecting. We then apply this attributes in our own lives. We are extremely thankful for what he has done for us. Our entire ministry work (which consists of over 1.5 trillion hours a year split among 7.5 million people) is based upon the work Jesus did while he was on earth and we spread that same message he commanded his disciples to spread.

1004

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
<<< You feel that they are different in person. Saying you and me are of the same essence (human) but different people, that would be correct. Now, does that somehow mean that we are the same people? Not at all. >>>[/quote]And here is where EV REE BUDDY goes wrong. Not just you guys. Even many I would consider genuine Christian brothers go astray to a degree right here.

There is NO valid analogy between the infinite eternal most high God and any other actual or potential object of knowledge there is. People do this all the time. “Welllll, would you send somebody to hell for_____________”. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever what I, or anybody else would do. The fact that we have no temporal experience with any being existing in more than one person says absolutely NOTHING about whether God exists as such a being. Unless you worship the puny pathetic intellect of man as your epistemological starting point.

I consider the entire incomprehensibility of the holy Trinity, indeed, the Godhead in general as a beautiful manifestation of God’s breathtaking majesty. You will not be able to resist seeing this as an opportunity to flank me into a debate about reason, but I am telling you ahead of time it probably won’t work. It might though. See, there is no point in discussing any other thing imaginable until it is established how we know anything at all.

I, along with the apostle Paul, Augustine and the protestant reformers of old start with God. Just about everybody else starts with the autonomy of man.

Des Carte said “I think, therefore I am”. People can propose a nearly infinite array of variations, but they all proceed pretty much with Des Carte.

I disagree. I say “God IS, therefore I think”. That one intellectual surrender, which is impossible without the Spirit of God, solves every single logical conundrum there could ever be. Not to the pagan of course. To him, that is the grand daddy of all copouts. To the man who has been graciously and mercifully subdued and resurrected by the living Christ it is not only the ultimate, but also the only possible freedom.
[/quote]

It is only natural for others, as well as me, to use analogies to try and explain the concept of Jesus and Jehovah and their relationship. You say “you consider the entire incomprehensibility of the holy Trinity, indeed, the Godhead in general as a beautiful manifestation of God’s breathtaking majesty.” I say, Jehovah and Jesus made their positions very clear, it was only when the idea of the trinity was introduced and people were forced to reconcile the Bible with the trinity that it became incomprehensible. I don’t know why you prefer to be left in the dark. That doesn’t make sense to me, and frankly, seems like you want God to be impossible to draw close to. (my opinion, not fact)

Jehovah’s Witnesses view our their religion as a very important part of their lives. We don’t get caught up in tradition, we don’t get caught up in any sort of mysticism surrounding God. We value the relationship we are privileged to have with Him, and we strive to learn more and more about His qualities, the qualities of His son, Jesus and what he has laid out as commandments for us to do. [/quote]

It’s easier to understand the Godhead and the persons as a family. There is one family (one God) and three persons in the family (three persons Father, Son, and Holy Ghost). I don’t know if that helps, but that is about as good as I can think of.[/quote]

A question I would like you to reflect on is this: Father’s name: Jehovah; Son’s name: Jesus. What is the Holy Spirit’s name? If they are all individual people (and, as you suggest, the most powerful people in the universe) wouldn’t all 3 of them have names?
[/quote]

Jehovah is an Anglicanized version of YHWH. Jehovah is the name of the Godhead, not the Father, the Father’s name, if he has one, is our Father. Holy Spirit’s name is the Holy Ghost (I kid, just use the Holy Ghost because I like it better, more tradition and stronger), and the Son’s name is Jesus because he was the only one to be a man. Names are a formality of their position and a reference to God’s truly masculine nature. However, you’re wrong to assume that the Holy Ghost doesn’t have a name, neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost have a name, but only the second person of the Godhead, the Son, has a name, Jesus.

1005

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
A question I would like you to reflect on is this: Father’s name: Jehovah; Son’s name: Jesus. What is the Holy Spirit’s name? If they are all individual people (and, as you suggest, the most powerful people in the universe) wouldn’t all 3 of them have names?
[/quote]

I’ll answer! God has many names, I don’t think his name is particularly relevant, he’s much bigger than a name… God’s spirit is part of God, his spirit is who he is, and his way of reaching us spirit to spirit. His son is his way of submitting to humanity. It is to humble himself to reach out to us.
Think about this, what if you had to reach out to dogs and explain baseball. To do this, you had to become a dog and you have to explain a concept they are not equipped to understand. How do you do it?

[/quote]

Pat, I will agree with you on this part: God has many different… and then it splits :slight_smile: But on a serious note. God says in the Bible that he has many titles and he has many different attributes. His power balances with his justice which balances with his love. We get tangled on the idea that Jesus is in the same being as Jehovah. To us (Jehovah’s Witnesses) we just don’t see them as the same individual. We have many texts that we share to show that with others.

I have been trying to understand the belief of the Trinity, and it seems that people want to give sooo much credit (rightly so) because of everything he has done for us that he must be God. And if he isn’t referred to as such it is insulting to him. However, you would (if you were to go to any of our meetings, assemblies, conventions) be able to see just how highly we view Jesus. We know that Jesus left us a model to follow his steps closely. We study very closely what we Jesus did on earth, and what qualities of Jehovah he was reflecting. We then apply this attributes in our own lives. We are extremely thankful for what he has done for us. Our entire ministry work (which consists of over 1.5 trillion hours a year split among 7.5 million people) is based upon the work Jesus did while he was on earth and we spread that same message he commanded his disciples to spread.[/quote]

I just can’t believe the JW’s because of their statements about the early church ending after the Apostles dying, and that they picked it up. And, the fact that their translation is faulty (I went and talked to the dude, and found his book in the library and read it, and read a retort of it as well, and I’m not sure how he could be an expert since he doesn’t have the credentials to do it).

1006

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Jehovah is an Anglicanized version of YHWH. Jehovah is the name of the Godhead, not the Father, the Father’s name, if he has one, is our Father. Holy Spirit’s name is the Holy Ghost (I kid, just use the Holy Ghost because I like it better, more tradition and stronger), and the Son’s name is Jesus because he was the only one to be a man. Names are a formality of their position and a reference to God’s truly masculine nature. However, you’re wrong to assume that the Holy Ghost doesn’t have a name, neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost have a name, but only the second person of the Godhead, the Son, has a name, Jesus.

[/quote]

“Jehovah is the name of the Godhead, not the Father.” Where are you getting this information?

“The Father’s name, if he has one, is our Father”…“neither the Father nor the Holy Ghost have a name.” Which one is it? He either has a name or he doesn’t. I am leaning toward “he does” because of Matthew 6:9 - “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name”. What name is suppose to be hallowed? Surely it isn’t father. And if it is father, than why would Father be hallowed and not Jesus?

“you’re wrong to assume that the Holy Ghost doesn’t have a name, neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost have a name, but only the second person of the Godhead, the Son, has a name, Jesus.”
So why am I wrong to assume the Holy Ghost or Spirit doesn’t have a name? You agree with me…

1007

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

I just can’t believe the JW’s because of their statements about the early church ending after the Apostles dying, and that they picked it up. And, the fact that their translation is faulty (I went and talked to the dude, and found his book in the library and read it, and read a retort of it as well, and I’m not sure how he could be an expert since he doesn’t have the credentials to do it).[/quote]

Who did you talk to? What facts show our translation to be faulty?

1008

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
A question I would like you to reflect on is this: Father’s name: Jehovah; Son’s name: Jesus. What is the Holy Spirit’s name? If they are all individual people (and, as you suggest, the most powerful people in the universe) wouldn’t all 3 of them have names?
[/quote]

I’ll answer! God has many names, I don’t think his name is particularly relevant, he’s much bigger than a name… God’s spirit is part of God, his spirit is who he is, and his way of reaching us spirit to spirit. His son is his way of submitting to humanity. It is to humble himself to reach out to us.
Think about this, what if you had to reach out to dogs and explain baseball. To do this, you had to become a dog and you have to explain a concept they are not equipped to understand. How do you do it?

[/quote]

“I don’t think his name is particularly relevant, he’s much bigger than a name.” This is an interesting point, because, for 99.9% of humans on earth, their name is just something to be called by. God was in a unique situation where he could choose his own name. He chose YHWH. Do you know what it means? “He causes to become.” That is such a powerful idea, and one that completely embodies what He has done throughout the Bible.

Jesus also has a name that should be noted:

(quoted for accuracy)
“The name Jesus (Gr., Iesous’) corresponds to the Hebrew name Jeshua (or, in fuller form, Jehoshua), meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation.””

Look at how that meaning of his name reflects on what Jesus came down to do. He offered up his life as a sacrifice to fulfill Jehovah’s perfect justice and to restore what was originally on the earth. What was Jesus message during his 3 1/2 year tour? He preached that only God’s Kingdom was the source of any saving. You see, Jesus knew how to gain salvation and his name itself even carries that meaning.

1009

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Jehovah is an Anglicanized version of YHWH. Jehovah is the name of the Godhead, not the Father, the Father’s name, if he has one, is our Father. Holy Spirit’s name is the Holy Ghost (I kid, just use the Holy Ghost because I like it better, more tradition and stronger), and the Son’s name is Jesus because he was the only one to be a man. Names are a formality of their position and a reference to God’s truly masculine nature. However, you’re wrong to assume that the Holy Ghost doesn’t have a name, neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost have a name, but only the second person of the Godhead, the Son, has a name, Jesus.

[/quote]

“Jehovah is the name of the Godhead, not the Father.” Where are you getting this information?

“The Father’s name, if he has one, is our Father”…“neither the Father nor the Holy Ghost have a name.” Which one is it? He either has a name or he doesn’t. I am leaning toward “he does” because of Matthew 6:9 - “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name”. What name is suppose to be hallowed? Surely it isn’t father. And if it is father, than why would Father be hallowed and not Jesus?
[/quote]

Father and the Holy Ghost are titles. Not actual names as Jesus is the Son’s name. What name is supposed to Hallowed? God. The Almighty. Godhead. The Creator. The Father. Jesus Christ. Holy Ghost.

[quote]
“you’re wrong to assume that the Holy Ghost doesn’t have a name, neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost have a name, but only the second person of the Godhead, the Son, has a name, Jesus.”
So why am I wrong to assume the Holy Ghost or Spirit doesn’t have a name? You agree with me…[/quote]

Because the Father doesn’t have a name.

1010

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

I just can’t believe the JW’s because of their statements about the early church ending after the Apostles dying, and that they picked it up. And, the fact that their translation is faulty (I went and talked to the dude, and found his book in the library and read it, and read a retort of it as well, and I’m not sure how he could be an expert since he doesn’t have the credentials to do it).[/quote]

Who did you talk to? What facts show our translation to be faulty?
[/quote]

I talked to the guy that wrote the book. I’ll try and find the article, but but your translation is definitely isn’t the best translated.

Edit: Here it is, http://www.ses.edu/Portals/0/documents/TRUTH%20IN%20TRANSLATIONA%2001.pdf

1011

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
A question I would like you to reflect on is this: Father’s name: Jehovah; Son’s name: Jesus. What is the Holy Spirit’s name? If they are all individual people (and, as you suggest, the most powerful people in the universe) wouldn’t all 3 of them have names?
[/quote]

I’ll answer! God has many names, I don’t think his name is particularly relevant, he’s much bigger than a name… God’s spirit is part of God, his spirit is who he is, and his way of reaching us spirit to spirit. His son is his way of submitting to humanity. It is to humble himself to reach out to us.
Think about this, what if you had to reach out to dogs and explain baseball. To do this, you had to become a dog and you have to explain a concept they are not equipped to understand. How do you do it?

[/quote]

“I don’t think his name is particularly relevant, he’s much bigger than a name.” This is an interesting point, because, for 99.9% of humans on earth, their name is just something to be called by. God was in a unique situation where he could choose his own name. He chose YHWH. Do you know what it means? “He causes to become.” That is such a powerful idea, and one that completely embodies what He has done throughout the Bible.

Jesus also has a name that should be noted:

(quoted for accuracy)
“The name Jesus (Gr., Iesous’) corresponds to the Hebrew name Jeshua (or, in fuller form, Jehoshua), meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation.””

Look at how that meaning of his name reflects on what Jesus came down to do. He offered up his life as a sacrifice to fulfill Jehovah’s perfect justice and to restore what was originally on the earth. What was Jesus message during his 3 1/2 year tour? He preached that only God’s Kingdom was the source of any saving. You see, Jesus knew how to gain salvation and his name itself even carries that meaning.

[/quote]

You’re confusing the Father with Godhead. God’s name is YHWH, the Father is encompassed in that name, but isn’t the Father’s name specifically.

1012

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
A question I would like you to reflect on is this: Father’s name: Jehovah; Son’s name: Jesus. What is the Holy Spirit’s name? If they are all individual people (and, as you suggest, the most powerful people in the universe) wouldn’t all 3 of them have names?
[/quote]

I’ll answer! God has many names, I don’t think his name is particularly relevant, he’s much bigger than a name… God’s spirit is part of God, his spirit is who he is, and his way of reaching us spirit to spirit. His son is his way of submitting to humanity. It is to humble himself to reach out to us.
Think about this, what if you had to reach out to dogs and explain baseball. To do this, you had to become a dog and you have to explain a concept they are not equipped to understand. How do you do it?

[/quote]

“I don’t think his name is particularly relevant, he’s much bigger than a name.” This is an interesting point, because, for 99.9% of humans on earth, their name is just something to be called by. God was in a unique situation where he could choose his own name. He chose YHWH. Do you know what it means? “He causes to become.” That is such a powerful idea, and one that completely embodies what He has done throughout the Bible.

Jesus also has a name that should be noted:

(quoted for accuracy)
“The name Jesus (Gr., Iesous’) corresponds to the Hebrew name Jeshua (or, in fuller form, Jehoshua), meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation.””

Look at how that meaning of his name reflects on what Jesus came down to do. He offered up his life as a sacrifice to fulfill Jehovah’s perfect justice and to restore what was originally on the earth. What was Jesus message during his 3 1/2 year tour? He preached that only God’s Kingdom was the source of any saving. You see, Jesus knew how to gain salvation and his name itself even carries that meaning.

[/quote]

You’re confusing the Father with Godhead. God’s name is YHWH, the Father is encompassed in that name, but isn’t the Father’s name specifically.[/quote]

And that is fine that you believe that, but I just don’t know where you are getting that information is all.

1013

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Jehovah is an Anglicanized version of YHWH. Jehovah is the name of the Godhead, not the Father, the Father’s name, if he has one, is our Father. Holy Spirit’s name is the Holy Ghost (I kid, just use the Holy Ghost because I like it better, more tradition and stronger), and the Son’s name is Jesus because he was the only one to be a man. Names are a formality of their position and a reference to God’s truly masculine nature. However, you’re wrong to assume that the Holy Ghost doesn’t have a name, neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost have a name, but only the second person of the Godhead, the Son, has a name, Jesus.

[/quote]

“Jehovah is the name of the Godhead, not the Father.” Where are you getting this information?

“The Father’s name, if he has one, is our Father”…“neither the Father nor the Holy Ghost have a name.” Which one is it? He either has a name or he doesn’t. I am leaning toward “he does” because of Matthew 6:9 - “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name”. What name is suppose to be hallowed? Surely it isn’t father. And if it is father, than why would Father be hallowed and not Jesus?
[/quote]

Father and the Holy Ghost are titles. Not actual names as Jesus is the Son’s name. What name is supposed to Hallowed? God. The Almighty. Godhead. The Creator. The Father. Jesus Christ. Holy Ghost.

[quote]
“you’re wrong to assume that the Holy Ghost doesn’t have a name, neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost have a name, but only the second person of the Godhead, the Son, has a name, Jesus.”
So why am I wrong to assume the Holy Ghost or Spirit doesn’t have a name? You agree with me…[/quote]

Because the Father doesn’t have a name.[/quote]

“Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.”

It didn’t say “Our God in heaven, hallowed be your name.”

Again, it is fine if you want to believe that, I just don’t know where you are getting it from.

1014

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Jehovah is an Anglicanized version of YHWH. Jehovah is the name of the Godhead, not the Father, the Father’s name, if he has one, is our Father. Holy Spirit’s name is the Holy Ghost (I kid, just use the Holy Ghost because I like it better, more tradition and stronger), and the Son’s name is Jesus because he was the only one to be a man. Names are a formality of their position and a reference to God’s truly masculine nature. However, you’re wrong to assume that the Holy Ghost doesn’t have a name, neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost have a name, but only the second person of the Godhead, the Son, has a name, Jesus.

[/quote]

“Jehovah is the name of the Godhead, not the Father.” Where are you getting this information?

“The Father’s name, if he has one, is our Father”…“neither the Father nor the Holy Ghost have a name.” Which one is it? He either has a name or he doesn’t. I am leaning toward “he does” because of Matthew 6:9 - “This, then, is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name”. What name is suppose to be hallowed? Surely it isn’t father. And if it is father, than why would Father be hallowed and not Jesus?
[/quote]

Father and the Holy Ghost are titles. Not actual names as Jesus is the Son’s name. What name is supposed to Hallowed? God. The Almighty. Godhead. The Creator. The Father. Jesus Christ. Holy Ghost.

[quote]
“you’re wrong to assume that the Holy Ghost doesn’t have a name, neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost have a name, but only the second person of the Godhead, the Son, has a name, Jesus.”
So why am I wrong to assume the Holy Ghost or Spirit doesn’t have a name? You agree with me…[/quote]

Because the Father doesn’t have a name.[/quote]

“Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.”

It didn’t say “Our God in heaven, hallowed be your name.”

Again, it is fine if you want to believe that, I just don’t know where you are getting it from.[/quote]

Theology.

Yes, Our Father is in Heaven. His Son came to earth, killed, buried, on the third day rose again, and was resurrected and sits at the right hand of the Father. Jesus is God as well, so is the Holy Ghost. Only Jesus has a human name.

God - YHWH/Jehovah
*Father
*Son - Jesus (only one with a human name because he became human)
*Holy Ghost

Titles/Names/Duties
Creator
Maker
Forgiver
Judge
Lord
Most High
King of Kings
Light of Light
Most Just
Most Holy
And on
And on
And on

You see what I am saying now?

1015

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Theology.

Yes, Our Father is in Heaven. His Son came to earth, killed, buried, on the third day rose again, and was resurrected and sits at the right hand of the Father. Jesus is God as well, so is the Holy Ghost. Only Jesus has a human name.

God - YHWH/Jehovah
*Father
*Son - Jesus (only one with a human name because he became human)
*Holy Ghost

Titles/Names/Duties
Creator
Maker
Forgiver
Judge
Lord
Most High
King of Kings
Light of Light
Most Just
Most Holy
And on
And on
And on

You see what I am saying now?[/quote]

No, I understood. I totally agree that God (and others) are given many titles and those are different than their name. My issue is mainly with your application here:

[quote]God - YHWH/Jehovah
*Father
*Son - Jesus (only one with a human name because he became human)
*Holy Ghost[/quote]

Why do you get to say that the Godhead is Jehovah and then Jesus gets a seperate name as well.

…

I, of course, also have trouble comprehending how someone can sit at the right hand of God, and then still be God. Logically that concept doesn’t make any sense. But that would never make sense to me.

But, yeah, my main issue is with you applying the name Jehovah (YHWH) to a Godhead without scriptural backing.

1016

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Theology.

Yes, Our Father is in Heaven. His Son came to earth, killed, buried, on the third day rose again, and was resurrected and sits at the right hand of the Father. Jesus is God as well, so is the Holy Ghost. Only Jesus has a human name.

God - YHWH/Jehovah
*Father
*Son - Jesus (only one with a human name because he became human)
*Holy Ghost

Titles/Names/Duties
Creator
Maker
Forgiver
Judge
Lord
Most High
King of Kings
Light of Light
Most Just
Most Holy
And on
And on
And on

You see what I am saying now?[/quote]

No, I understood. I totally agree that God (and others) are given many titles and those are different than their name. My issue is mainly with your application here:

[quote]God - YHWH/Jehovah
*Father
*Son - Jesus (only one with a human name because he became human)
*Holy Ghost[/quote]

Why do you get to say that the Godhead is Jehovah and then Jesus gets a seperate name as well.

…

I, of course, also have trouble comprehending how someone can sit at the right hand of God, and then still be God. Logically that concept doesn’t make any sense. But that would never make sense to me.

But, yeah, my main issue is with you applying the name Jehovah (YHWH) to a Godhead without scriptural backing.[/quote]

Why? Because I do, God didn’t reveal his trinitarian nature to the Jews clearly, because of the very difficulty you have at this moment, he didn’t reveal a lot of stuff because of the difficulty to understand it. They weren’t mature enough, they were too close to cultures that had multiple gods to understand three person’s in one God. In the correct manner. Just like Noah wasn’t chided for his drunkenness.

Because the vision of the Son, sitting at the right hand of the Father, is the vision of Solomon sitting at the right hand of the David. Not because the Father actually has a body to sit to the right of.

Um, the Jews didn’t see three persons in the Godhead, they just had the understanding that there is one God, they called him YHWH which God gave them. Not until Jesus was there a discernible difference amongst the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. We can see that in the baptism Jesus gives us, in the NAME (singular) of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

1017

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

Why? Because I do, God didn’t reveal his trinitarian nature to the Jews clearly, because of the very difficulty you have at this moment, he didn’t reveal a lot of stuff because of the difficulty to understand it. They weren’t mature enough, they were too close to cultures that had multiple gods to understand three person’s in one God. In the correct manner. Just like Noah wasn’t chided for his drunkenness.

[/quote]

OK, you are not going to like the following paragraphs, but I am posting them as a response to: “They weren’t mature enough, they were too close to cultures that had multiple gods to understand three person’s in one God.”

(quoted for accuracy)
[THROUGHOUT the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity.

Historian Will Durant observed: “Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it… From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity.” And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: “The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians…Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology.”]

As you know the Jews (also known as the Israelites) were captives of the Egyptians and lived in Egypt since Joseph.

1018

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
A question I would like you to reflect on is this: Father’s name: Jehovah; Son’s name: Jesus. What is the Holy Spirit’s name? If they are all individual people (and, as you suggest, the most powerful people in the universe) wouldn’t all 3 of them have names?
[/quote]

I’ll answer! God has many names, I don’t think his name is particularly relevant, he’s much bigger than a name… God’s spirit is part of God, his spirit is who he is, and his way of reaching us spirit to spirit. His son is his way of submitting to humanity. It is to humble himself to reach out to us.
Think about this, what if you had to reach out to dogs and explain baseball. To do this, you had to become a dog and you have to explain a concept they are not equipped to understand. How do you do it?

[/quote]

Pat, I will agree with you on this part: God has many different… and then it splits :slight_smile: But on a serious note. God says in the Bible that he has many titles and he has many different attributes. His power balances with his justice which balances with his love. We get tangled on the idea that Jesus is in the same being as Jehovah. To us (Jehovah’s Witnesses) we just don’t see them as the same individual. We have many texts that we share to show that with others.

I have been trying to understand the belief of the Trinity, and it seems that people want to give sooo much credit (rightly so) because of everything he has done for us that he must be God. And if he isn’t referred to as such it is insulting to him. However, you would (if you were to go to any of our meetings, assemblies, conventions) be able to see just how highly we view Jesus. We know that Jesus left us a model to follow his steps closely. We study very closely what we Jesus did on earth, and what qualities of Jehovah he was reflecting. We then apply this attributes in our own lives. We are extremely thankful for what he has done for us. Our entire ministry work (which consists of over 1.5 trillion hours a year split among 7.5 million people) is based upon the work Jesus did while he was on earth and we spread that same message he commanded his disciples to spread.[/quote]

You do realize that he trinity doctrine existed before the bible canon? Any how many references in John specifically reference Jesus being in the father and the father being in him. To know him is to know the father, etc…
As far as the Holy Spirit Acts 5:4 is reference to the divinity of the Holy Spirit. “You have not lied to men, but to God.”

1019

[quote]pat wrote:

You do realize that he trinity doctrine existed before the bible canon?[/quote]

What does that have to do with anything? Does the trinity doctrine predate any of the actual books used in said canon?

[quote] Any how many references in John specifically reference Jesus being in the father and the father being in him. To know him is to know the father, etc…
As far as the Holy Spirit Acts 5:4 is reference to the divinity of the Holy Spirit. “You have not lied to men, but to God.”[/quote]

None. They share one ‘mind’, and in that sense they say they are “one”, but then again, the disciples are also “one” with Jesus; but I don’t know of a scripture that Jesus says he is God, not a single one.

1020

John 8:58

See also Exodus 3:14

This seems a clear statement on Christ’s divinity, given that the crowd immediately tried to stone him for sacrilege.