[quote]forlife wrote:
<<< And I’m SUPPOSED to like talking about the pursuit of truth over fiction.[/quote]Yes you are and my prayer will continue to be that the Lord of all truth lovingly subdue your rebellious heart like He did mine so you can join me in doing so.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< A little self-pity? No, I pay attention, but sometimes I don’t see a post of yours. Sometimes I’ll be gone a week and just go to the last post. >>.[/quote]Not in the least and fair enough.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:Yeah, there are some people that seem like that, in the denominations as well, but I think that has to do with a cultural thing, not a Catholic teaching. >>>[/quote]You really don’t get it. There are millions who ARE like that. It’s a catholic culture thing. I have known and do know lots of catholics and I can count on way less than one hand those whose lives gave any hint of a godly association with Jesus Christ whatsoever. Even the ones whose houses are festooned with the trappings of Baal in the guise of “Christian” icons and tell you all about their roman devotion. talk and act no different than the average dead pagan here.
The most godly people ever born struggle mightily with their sin (see Romans 7) and that’s the point. Most catholics wouldn’t know their own personal depravity it if kissed them in the face nevermind struggle with it. God doesn’t primarily care how many “Mary’s Meals” charities you work while hiding the gospel from those whose bodies you feed. But why bother? They’re all pretty much ok anyway (or at the least, might be). No. God saves men to commune with them spirit to Spirit while building a passion in them for them to see others share the privilege. He cannot do that while they are living at peace with all the carnality of the world in their own hearts. Do I really need to post a gigantic biblical barrage on justification and sanctification which you wouldn’t care about anyway because Rome has already told you what to believe?[quote]Brother Chris wrote:You obvious forget that, as Catholics we are the Church. We are the Church Militant, but still the Church.[/quote]No you are not the church. The bride of Christ would never ever brazenly behave in such a manner.
Oh yes indeed the non catholic world is full of the same thing, but none of us make the claim as an earthly entity of being “the one true holy apostolic church”. My pastor preaches all the time about surrendering to God’s merciful correction so He can draw you closer to Himself because He loves you and wants to spend intimate time you. He wants me to stand out from the world as a member of His separated body so that any of the elect I may encounter might here His voice in me. How can they do that if I don’t act or speak any differently than anybody else. Why should anybody listen if they perceive I’m no different than they are?
If my elders were to ever discover me participating in the sex forum here for example I would be disciplined with counsel, encouragement and prayer first. Being barred the Lord’s supper next and excommunication last until such time as I would repent and cease from bringing open reproach upon the holy exalted name of the Son of God. We’re not talking about somebody who has made themselves accountable and is fighting the war Paul describes. We’re talking about open rebellious surrender to clear sin of any kind.
The RCC, especially of the western world knows nothing of any of this. The pews are full of dead worldlings who think they’re going to heaven (eventually) because somebody sprinkled water on them when they were born. The church exists wherever truly born again believers are who are striving to not be conformed to this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of their mind (Romans 12) in the spirit leading to the putting off of the old man dead in Adam and putting on the new man alive in Christ (Ephesians 4)
Roman Catholicism is a dead pharisaic religious system and a hindrance to God’s purpose in mankind and the Earth. Way down inside where I live with Jesus this is what I am forced to conclude as I observe through the prism of His Word.
To the atheists or agnostics I must ask:
What are the odds the life arose from nothing and out of random chance? Really think about this. It doesn’t matter if there is other life on other planets, or if we can generate life in a laboratory setting (which shows the need of an individual manipulating the universe around them to form life hint hint).
IF you can come to the conclusion that at least something is out there, a force that we call God, why would he NOT form rules to for his creation to follow? If we were created, why would the creator sit back and say “let them do as they wish”?
IF you can come to the conclusion that a creator formed rules for us to follow, being the enforcer, why would he not instill some sort of punishment for those who continuously lead a life opposite of what this creator wants/desires?
IF you can come to this conclusion, then why not try finding out what this creator desires so you can live your life to honor and serve him?
@Brother Chris: yes thats what I believe. Christ only submitted to the Father while on earth, but not in eternity before he came to earth, or not now sitting at the right hand of the Father.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< A little self-pity? No, I pay attention, but sometimes I don’t see a post of yours. Sometimes I’ll be gone a week and just go to the last post. >>.[/quote]Not in the least and fair enough.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:Yeah, there are some people that seem like that, in the denominations as well, but I think that has to do with a cultural thing, not a Catholic teaching. >>>[/quote]You really don’t get it. There are millions who ARE like that. It’s a catholic culture thing. I have known and do know lots of catholics and I can count on way less than one hand those whose lives gave any hint of a godly association with Jesus Christ whatsoever. Even the ones whose houses are festooned with the trappings of Baal in the guise of “Christian” icons and tell you all about their roman devotion. talk and act no different than the average dead pagan here.
[/quote]
Then they are in communion with the Pope as you are, except you act better.
Go ahead, I have no clue what you’re talking about though.
[quote][quote]Brother Chris wrote:You obvious forget that, as Catholics we are the Church. We are the Church Militant, but still the Church.[/quote]No you are not the church. The bride of Christ would never ever brazenly behave in such a manner.
Oh yes indeed the non catholic world is full of the same thing, but none of us make the claim as an earthly entity of being “the one true holy apostolic church”. My pastor preaches all the time about surrendering to God’s merciful correction so He can draw you closer to Himself because He loves you and wants to spend intimate time you. He wants me to stand out from the world as a member of His separated body so that any of the elect I may encounter might here His voice in me. How can they do that if I don’t act or speak any differently than anybody else. Why should anybody listen if they perceive I’m no different than they are?
[/quote]
Those people you talk about are not faithful, I know people that say they are Catholics, but they do not even go to Sunday Mass or holy days of obligation. About Buddhist, this theology of buddhism has seemed to infiltrate almost every Christian sect. Go to Catholic.com and listen to the radio, specifically on the New Age movement. Catholics in good theology cast down this theology upon rocks. It’s useless and self centered and egotistical. The Catholic Church does not believe everyone is fine, if Catholics need to keep chugging a long their whole life to be in union with God. Then so does everyone else. That is the truth, and there is no Salvation outside of the Church. That is not changed, sorry. I know you wish it did so you can criticize it, but it is unflinching. There have been people that have falsely taught the Catholic Church does not hold that as a truth, but it does.
That is the just the most ignorant comment I have heard from you. You pretend like your congregation has no problems, but everyone is dead inside the Catholic Church. I just visited the Poor Clares on retreat this Friday-Saturday to help them with their Chapel and Monastery and take a tour. They are dead to the world, and I guarantee they are more dead to the world than you. Rosary, Mass, breakfast, work, study, lunch, private time, study, bendiction, work, recreation. From 7:10 am - 9:30 pm, they serve the Lord together, and each has four hours of adoration a day as they are Poor Clares Perpetual Adoration. So some of these women wake up for years in the middle of the night just to spend time with Jesus, always sitting at his feet. They also erase their identity with their clothes, vow poverty, chastity, and obedience.
Then you have the laity, the ones that are part of several 3rd Orders, vowing to different things for life (prayer, adoration, rosary, &c.) to the Lord. You have Knights of Columbus who are one of the most charitable fraternities in the world. You have the other fraternities that millions of Catholics are apart of that require you to be in good standing.
I can assure you, after this weekend, with all certainty that Catholicism is not dead. And, what is wrong with the Pharisees? They followed the rules (both written tradition and oral tradition), what is wrong with them was that they just didn’t always follow all of the rules (like stoning both the woman and man), and they made up rules that nullified the laws of God. Catholicism don’t do that.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< You pretend like your congregation has no problems, >>>[/quote]It’s late, but I never said this. That congregation does not exist. More tomorrow.
Morning update
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:<<< The most godly people ever born struggle mightily with their sin (see Romans 7) and that’s the point. Most catholics wouldn’t know their own personal depravity it if kissed them in the face nevermind struggle with it. God doesn’t primarily care how many “Mary’s Meals” charities you work while hiding the gospel from those whose bodies you feed. But why bother? They’re all pretty much ok anyway (or at the least, might be). No. God saves men to commune with them spirit to Spirit while building a passion in them for them to see others share the privilege. He cannot do that while they are living at peace with all the carnality of the world in their own hearts. Do I really need to post a gigantic biblical barrage on justification and sanctification which you wouldn’t care about anyway because Rome has already told you what to believe?
[/quote]
Go ahead, I have no clue what you’re talking about though.[/quote]This much is certain and neither do the Poor Clares. The deadness of the old man enslaved to the flesh and the world goes with EVERYONE EVERYWHERE. Locking yourself away with some vows and ritual is just another beguiling manifestation of carnality. I’m at work at the moment. If you only understood my motivation here.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< You pretend like your congregation has no problems, >>>[/quote]It’s late, but I never said this. That congregation does not exist. More tomorrow.
Morning update
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:<<< The most godly people ever born struggle mightily with their sin (see Romans 7) and that’s the point. Most catholics wouldn’t know their own personal depravity it if kissed them in the face nevermind struggle with it. God doesn’t primarily care how many “Mary’s Meals” charities you work while hiding the gospel from those whose bodies you feed. But why bother? They’re all pretty much ok anyway (or at the least, might be). No. God saves men to commune with them spirit to Spirit while building a passion in them for them to see others share the privilege. He cannot do that while they are living at peace with all the carnality of the world in their own hearts. Do I really need to post a gigantic biblical barrage on justification and sanctification which you wouldn’t care about anyway because Rome has already told you what to believe?
[/quote]
Go ahead, I have no clue what you’re talking about though.[/quote]This much is certain and neither do the Poor Clares. The deadness of the old man enslaved to the flesh and the world goes with EVERYONE EVERYWHERE. Locking yourself away with some vows and ritual is just another beguiling manifestation of carnality. I’m at work at the moment. If you only understood my motivation here. [/quote]
Nope don’t understand.
[quote]forbes wrote:
To the atheists or agnostics I must ask:
What are the odds the life arose from nothing and out of random chance? Really think about this. It doesn’t matter if there is other life on other planets, or if we can generate life in a laboratory setting (which shows the need of an individual manipulating the universe around them to form life hint hint) [/quote]
The odds of life arising from nothing are very, very low.
The odds of a supernatural being magically existing are also very, very low.
Neither represents my view, which is that matter and energy have always existed, as the First Law of Thermodynamics confirms.
Chris, when you say there is no Salvation outside of the Church, what do you mean? Are you saying someone must be baptized a Catholic to be saved, or what?
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
To the atheists or agnostics I must ask:
What are the odds the life arose from nothing and out of random chance? Really think about this. It doesn’t matter if there is other life on other planets, or if we can generate life in a laboratory setting (which shows the need of an individual manipulating the universe around them to form life hint hint) [/quote]
The odds of life arising from nothing are very, very low.
The odds of a supernatural being magically existing are also very, very low.
Neither represents my view, which is that matter and energy have always existed, as the First Law of Thermodynamics confirms.[/quote]
The universe is not infinitely old because it has not “run down.”
- If the universe were infinitely old, it would have reached a state where all usable energy was gone.
- But, we are not in this state; therefore, the universe is not infinitely old and must have had a beginning.
If this is the case, then:
All events have causes.
- There cannot be an infinite regress of events because that would mean the universe were infinitely old.
- We’ve already established that the universe cannot be infinitely old.
- If it were infinitely old, the universe would be in a state of unusable energy, which it is not.
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
To the atheists or agnostics I must ask:
What are the odds the life arose from nothing and out of random chance? Really think about this. It doesn’t matter if there is other life on other planets, or if we can generate life in a laboratory setting (which shows the need of an individual manipulating the universe around them to form life hint hint) [/quote]
The odds of life arising from nothing are very, very low.
The odds of a supernatural being magically existing are also very, very low.
Neither represents my view, which is that matter and energy have always existed, as the First Law of Thermodynamics confirms.[/quote]
The universe is not infinitely old because it has not “run down.”
- If the universe were infinitely old, it would have reached a state where all usable energy was gone.
- But, we are not in this state; therefore, the universe is not infinitely old and must have had a beginning.
If this is the case, then:
All events have causes.
- There cannot be an infinite regress of events because that would mean the universe were infinitely old.
- We’ve already established that the universe cannot be infinitely old.
- If it were infinitely old, the universe would be in a state of unusable energy, which it is not. [/quote]
Though I don’t believe the universe is infinitely old, I don’t think I agree with what you are saying. Let me explain. The Bible says in Psalms that there will be people living on earth forever. This would mean that it will HAVE to say around so that people can use the energy. Therefore, it would not “run down”.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, when you say there is no Salvation outside of the Church, what do you mean? Are you saying someone must be baptized a Catholic to be saved, or what?[/quote]
Generally. But of course there is more to it than that.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
<<< You pretend like your congregation has no problems, >>>[/quote]It’s late, but I never said this. That congregation does not exist. More tomorrow.
Morning update
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:<<< The most godly people ever born struggle mightily with their sin (see Romans 7) and that’s the point. Most catholics wouldn’t know their own personal depravity it if kissed them in the face nevermind struggle with it. God doesn’t primarily care how many “Mary’s Meals” charities you work while hiding the gospel from those whose bodies you feed. But why bother? They’re all pretty much ok anyway (or at the least, might be). No. God saves men to commune with them spirit to Spirit while building a passion in them for them to see others share the privilege. He cannot do that while they are living at peace with all the carnality of the world in their own hearts. Do I really need to post a gigantic biblical barrage on justification and sanctification which you wouldn’t care about anyway because Rome has already told you what to believe?
[/quote]
Go ahead, I have no clue what you’re talking about though.[/quote]This much is certain and neither do the Poor Clares. The deadness of the old man enslaved to the flesh and the world goes with EVERYONE EVERYWHERE. Locking yourself away with some vows and ritual is just another beguiling manifestation of carnality. I’m at work at the moment. If you only understood my motivation here. [/quote]
Nope don’t understand.[/quote]
So, I reread your statement, more closely this time, not saying it wasn’t close, just I had time to think about what you were saying in context of what you have said, and the fact is that worshiping Jesus at his feet for the rest of your life is not another manifestation of carnality it is of human nature. Original human nature, what we were made for, to worship Jesus. That’s what these sisters do, all day everyday nonstop, sit at the feet of Jesus in his throne and worship him, offering up prayers and praise.
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
To the atheists or agnostics I must ask:
What are the odds the life arose from nothing and out of random chance? Really think about this. It doesn’t matter if there is other life on other planets, or if we can generate life in a laboratory setting (which shows the need of an individual manipulating the universe around them to form life hint hint) [/quote]
The odds of life arising from nothing are very, very low.
The odds of a supernatural being magically existing are also very, very low.
Neither represents my view, which is that matter and energy have always existed, as the First Law of Thermodynamics confirms.[/quote]
The universe is not infinitely old because it has not “run down.”
- If the universe were infinitely old, it would have reached a state where all usable energy was gone.
- But, we are not in this state; therefore, the universe is not infinitely old and must have had a beginning.
If this is the case, then:
All events have causes.
- There cannot be an infinite regress of events because that would mean the universe were infinitely old.
- We’ve already established that the universe cannot be infinitely old.
- If it were infinitely old, the universe would be in a state of unusable energy, which it is not. [/quote]
You’re assuming the universe moves unidirectionally toward an ultimate, unavoidable state of unusable energy. That is only one theory, and other scientists have proposed other viable possibilities, including the accordion universe and the infinite string of universes theories.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, when you say there is no Salvation outside of the Church, what do you mean? Are you saying someone must be baptized a Catholic to be saved, or what?[/quote]
Generally. But of course there is more to it than that.[/quote]
So what happens to good men that die without being baptized into the Catholic church?
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, when you say there is no Salvation outside of the Church, what do you mean? Are you saying someone must be baptized a Catholic to be saved, or what?[/quote]
Generally. But of course there is more to it than that.[/quote]
So what happens to good men that die without being baptized into the Catholic church?[/quote]It’s a meaningless and utterly unbiblical semantic feel good trip wherein even people like me who overtly abominate the RCC can wind up in heaven, even if it’s after a trillion years in purgatory (not now) because whether we like it or not we are in communion with Rome and the pope and hence inside “the church”. This is a damnable anti Christian heresy that has and will contribute the loss of millions and millions of souls, but it’s outta my hands. All I can do is report.
Oh yeah. There no good men (or women) not even one. Romans 3:10 and others. Oh they have a dandy hip n groovy explanation for stuff like this too.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, when you say there is no Salvation outside of the Church, what do you mean? Are you saying someone must be baptized a Catholic to be saved, or what?[/quote]
Generally. But of course there is more to it than that.[/quote]
So what happens to good men that die without being baptized into the Catholic church?[/quote]
Not a Catholic, but I believe that it is forgiven men, not good men, that are received into Heaven. Baptized or not is another debate. Case in point, when Jesus is on his last moments on the cross,
“39 And One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, â??Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!â?? 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, â??Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.â?? 42 And he said, â??Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.â?? 43 And he said to him,â??Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Can’t really say a criminal that is being crucified was a good man yet he is invited into Heaven.
Just offering an answer to your question.
[quote]ahu2468 wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, when you say there is no Salvation outside of the Church, what do you mean? Are you saying someone must be baptized a Catholic to be saved, or what?[/quote]
Generally. But of course there is more to it than that.[/quote]
So what happens to good men that die without being baptized into the Catholic church?[/quote]
Not a Catholic, but I believe that it is forgiven men, not good men, that are received into Heaven. Baptized or not is another debate. Case in point, when Jesus is on his last moments on the cross,
“39 And One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, â??Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!â?? 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, â??Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.â?? 42 And he said, â??Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.â?? 43 And he said to him,â??Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Can’t really say a criminal that is being crucified was a good man yet he is invited into Heaven.
Just offering an answer to your question.[/quote]
Very well said my friend. There in lies the point. There are many confused people walking around thinking that if they live a good life they will get into heaven and that is NOT the way it works according to Christianity. You must first accept Jesus Christ as your savior and accept his great sacrifice on the cross which paid the price for your sins. Then and only then can you get into heaven. But I will add that if you are a Christian by the terms that I’ve just put forth you then desire to do good acts.
As James said, “faith without works is dead…” If you are truly a Christian you will in fact do good works. No one is good enough on their own without Jesus Christ. In other words, we are all sinners it’s just a matter of to what degree. Christ and only Christ, is able to save you from the penalty that would normally go along with your sins.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, when you say there is no Salvation outside of the Church, what do you mean? Are you saying someone must be baptized a Catholic to be saved, or what?[/quote]
Generally. But of course there is more to it than that.[/quote]
So what happens to good men that die without being baptized into the Catholic church?[/quote]
Hell.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, when you say there is no Salvation outside of the Church, what do you mean? Are you saying someone must be baptized a Catholic to be saved, or what?[/quote]
Generally. But of course there is more to it than that.[/quote]
So what happens to good men that die without being baptized into the Catholic church?[/quote]
Hell.[/quote]
Wait, what?! I haven’t been paying much attention to this thread, but the Catholic church recognizes authentic Christian baptism, not CATHOLIC baptism.
[quote]ahu2468 wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Chris, when you say there is no Salvation outside of the Church, what do you mean? Are you saying someone must be baptized a Catholic to be saved, or what?[/quote]
Generally. But of course there is more to it than that.[/quote]
So what happens to good men that die without being baptized into the Catholic church?[/quote]
Not a Catholic, but I believe that it is forgiven men, not good men, that are received into Heaven. Baptized or not is another debate. Case in point, when Jesus is on his last moments on the cross,
“39 And One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, â??Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!â?? 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, â??Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.â?? 42 And he said, â??Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.â?? 43 And he said to him,â??Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Can’t really say a criminal that is being crucified was a good man yet he is invited into Heaven.
Just offering an answer to your question.[/quote]
The man was baptized by desire. And, suffered his purgatory on the Cross.