[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Facts, the highest of the angels was Lucifer
[/quote]
Would you be so kind as to point out the scripture where this information is found? Thanks.
[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Facts, the highest of the angels was Lucifer
[/quote]
Would you be so kind as to point out the scripture where this information is found? Thanks.
[/quote]
I only have one thing to say about angels in context of this discussion:
If you believe Jesus to be an angel, and that you can worship Jesus even though you believe him to be an angel, you have a serious problem in Scripture:
Colossians 2:18 says “Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize.” The passage’s context clearly indicates that worshiping angels is a false doctrine.
Revelation 19:10 "And I fell at his feet to worship him (his angelic guide). But he said to me, 'See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!
Isaiah 42:8 "“I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another”
Now as far as your Doctrine that Jesus an angel was elevated to a position of a lesser god and that this lesser god was the savior of man - I apologize for my shortness earlier, I let me get in the way of the Word. Please allow me to get out of the way.
I will let the Word answer you:
Exodus 20:12 “And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.”
Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!”
Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are the LORD; You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and everything on it, the seas and all that is in them, and You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You.”
Deuteronomy 4:35-39 “To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD Himself is God; there is none other besides Him…Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.”
Deuteronomy 32:39 “Now see that I, even I, am He, and there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.”
1 Samuel 2:2 “No one is holy like the LORD, for there is none besides You, nor is there any rock like our God.”
2 Samuel 7:22 “Therefore You are great, O Lord GOD. For there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You.”
I Chronicles 17:20 “O LORD, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You.”
Psalm 86:10 “You alone are God.”
I Kings 8:59-60 “And may these words of mine, with which I have made supplication before the LORD, be near the LORD our God day and night, that He may maintain the cause of His servant and the cause of His people Israel, as each day may require, that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no other.”
Isaiah 37:16 “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.”
Hosea 13:4 “Yet I am the LORD your God ever since the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me; for there is no savior besides Me.”
Isaiah 43:11 “Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior.”
Isaiah 44:6-8 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, let them show these to them. Do not fear, nor be afraid; have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.”
Isaiah 45:5-7 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; there is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.”
Isaiah 45:14 “Surely God is in you, and there is no other; there is no other God.”
Isaiah 45:21-22 “Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me. Look to Me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”
Isaiah 46:9 “Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me.”
Joel 2:27 “Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel: I am the LORD your God and there is no other.”
Jude 1:24 "Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to make you stand without blemish in the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
I have nothing to add to the plain Word found in Scripture.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Facts, the highest of the angels was Lucifer
[/quote]
Would you be so kind as to point out the scripture where this information is found? Thanks.
[/quote]
I only have one thing to say about angels in context of this discussion:
If you believe Jesus to be an angel, and that you can worship Jesus even though you believe him to be an angel, you have a serious problem in Scripture:
Colossians 2:18 says “Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize.” The passage’s context clearly indicates that worshiping angels is a false doctrine.
Revelation 19:10 "And I fell at his feet to worship him (his angelic guide). But he said to me, 'See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!
Isaiah 42:8 "“I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another”
Now as far as your Doctrine that Jesus an angel was elevated to a position of a lesser god and that this lesser god was the savior of man - I apologize for my shortness earlier, I let me get in the way of the Word. Please allow me to get out of the way.
I will let the Word answer you:
Exodus 20:12 “And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.”
Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!”
Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are the LORD; You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and everything on it, the seas and all that is in them, and You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You.”
Deuteronomy 4:35-39 “To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD Himself is God; there is none other besides Him…Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.”
Deuteronomy 32:39 “Now see that I, even I, am He, and there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.”
1 Samuel 2:2 “No one is holy like the LORD, for there is none besides You, nor is there any rock like our God.”
2 Samuel 7:22 “Therefore You are great, O Lord GOD. For there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You.”
I Chronicles 17:20 “O LORD, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You.”
Psalm 86:10 “You alone are God.”
I Kings 8:59-60 “And may these words of mine, with which I have made supplication before the LORD, be near the LORD our God day and night, that He may maintain the cause of His servant and the cause of His people Israel, as each day may require, that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no other.”
Isaiah 37:16 “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.”
Hosea 13:4 “Yet I am the LORD your God ever since the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me; for there is no savior besides Me.”
Isaiah 43:11 “Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior.”
Isaiah 44:6-8 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, let them show these to them. Do not fear, nor be afraid; have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.”
Isaiah 45:5-7 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; there is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.”
Isaiah 45:14 “Surely God is in you, and there is no other; there is no other God.”
Isaiah 45:21-22 “Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me. Look to Me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”
Isaiah 46:9 “Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me.”
Joel 2:27 “Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel: I am the LORD your God and there is no other.”
Jude 1:24 "Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to make you stand without blemish in the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
I have nothing to add to the plain Word found in Scripture.[/quote]
Thanks for your response, but I think you misunderstood me. I was simply asking for you to cite a scripture regarding your claim of Lucifer being the highest of the angels. I am also not a JW, I am merely curious as to where in the Bible this fact is made clear.
[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:
<<< Thanks for your response, but I think you misunderstood me. I was simply asking for you to cite a scripture regarding your claim of Lucifer being the highest of the angels. I am also not a JW, I am merely curious as to where in the Bible this fact is made clear.[/quote]
Isaiah 14:12-17 (King James Version)
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
In my opinion this passage is not NECESSARILY referring to Satan himself for a bunch of reasons I’ll let somebody else get into if they are so inclined. It may be and it isn’t ridiculous to think that it does. I’ve gone back and forth. It also doesn’t imperil the soul one way or another so honest people can disagree here.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:
<<< Thanks for your response, but I think you misunderstood me. I was simply asking for you to cite a scripture regarding your claim of Lucifer being the highest of the angels. I am also not a JW, I am merely curious as to where in the Bible this fact is made clear.[/quote]
Isaiah 14:12-17 (King James Version)
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
In my opinion this passage is not NECESSARILY referring to Satan himself for a bunch of reasons I’ll let somebody else get into if they are so inclined. It may be and it isn’t ridiculous to think that it does. I’ve gone back and forth. It also doesn’t imperil the soul one way or another so honest people can disagree here.[/quote]
As you alluded to, strictly speaking this passage is referring to the king of Babylon…but it is often likened to Satan (signifies the splendour he had and lost, and his pride).
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Facts, the highest of the angels was Lucifer
[/quote]
Would you be so kind as to point out the scripture where this information is found? Thanks.
[/quote]
I only have one thing to say about angels in context of this discussion:
If you believe Jesus to be an angel, and that you can worship Jesus even though you believe him to be an angel, you have a serious problem in Scripture:
Colossians 2:18 says “Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize.” The passage’s context clearly indicates that worshiping angels is a false doctrine.
Revelation 19:10 "And I fell at his feet to worship him (his angelic guide). But he said to me, 'See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!
Isaiah 42:8 "“I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another”
Now as far as your Doctrine that Jesus an angel was elevated to a position of a lesser god and that this lesser god was the savior of man - I apologize for my shortness earlier, I let me get in the way of the Word. Please allow me to get out of the way.
I will let the Word answer you:
Exodus 20:12 “And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.”
Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!”
Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are the LORD; You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and everything on it, the seas and all that is in them, and You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You.”
Deuteronomy 4:35-39 “To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD Himself is God; there is none other besides Him…Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.”
Deuteronomy 32:39 “Now see that I, even I, am He, and there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.”
1 Samuel 2:2 “No one is holy like the LORD, for there is none besides You, nor is there any rock like our God.”
2 Samuel 7:22 “Therefore You are great, O Lord GOD. For there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You.”
I Chronicles 17:20 “O LORD, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You.”
Psalm 86:10 “You alone are God.”
I Kings 8:59-60 “And may these words of mine, with which I have made supplication before the LORD, be near the LORD our God day and night, that He may maintain the cause of His servant and the cause of His people Israel, as each day may require, that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no other.”
Isaiah 37:16 “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.”
Hosea 13:4 “Yet I am the LORD your God ever since the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me; for there is no savior besides Me.”
Isaiah 43:11 “Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior.”
Isaiah 44:6-8 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, let them show these to them. Do not fear, nor be afraid; have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.”
Isaiah 45:5-7 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; there is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.”
Isaiah 45:14 “Surely God is in you, and there is no other; there is no other God.”
Isaiah 45:21-22 “Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me. Look to Me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”
Isaiah 46:9 “Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me.”
Joel 2:27 “Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel: I am the LORD your God and there is no other.”
Jude 1:24 "Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to make you stand without blemish in the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
I have nothing to add to the plain Word found in Scripture.[/quote]
This is a good example of a straw-man argument.
To start with, Jehovah’s Witnesses are the ones who are dead against polytheism, and they are the ones who point out that the trinity IS polytheism (think [Tri]nity…it means three…YOU worship THREE GODS…to you, they’re simply interchangeable). All those scriptures you quoted above is a warning against the trinity:
“THERE IS NO OTHER GOD EXCEPT THE FATHER”
What’s the difference between the trinity theory and what the pagans do with their tri gods? You’ll say, “ah, but it’s three in ONE, not three Gods”…well how come Jesus prayed TO God, you know, God HIS FATHER??? Was he speaking to himself? LOL When Jesus was on the crucifixion, he requests:
“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” - Luke 23:34
Does that not sound like two separate persons to you (one communicating with the other)? or is he just a man with schizophrenia??? There’s plenty more examples where that came from…
Secondly, if we ARE right, that Jesus is an angel and not God…don’t you think you should be worried about those scriptures you just quoted warning against angel worship?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
You do realize that at John 1:18 it says that no man has seen God, right?[/quote]
You do realize that John 1:1 says Jesus is God, right?[/quote]
So what does that mean? Does that mean that the Bible is contradicting itself?[/quote]
Maybe in your eyes, but in God’s eyes it does not.
John 1:18 says that No one has seen God, but God the One and Only. Since Jesus is God he has seen himslef. Seems pretty self explanitory to me. If you believe that Jesus is an angel and became human, since John 1:18 says that no one has seen God, does that mean that the angel has not seen God? Because John 1:18 says that God the One and Only has seen God. It does not say an angel has seen God.[/quote]
This is where reasoning comes in. It says that “no man has seen God at any time” but it doesn’t mention anything about angels seeing God. We do know in other scriptures that angels are around God’s throne and that, at one point, Satan came before God’s throne. This would appear that angels can see God, but that humans cannot. Now, since men saw Jesus, that would draw a logical conclusion that Jesus cannot be God.
As a side point: NIV’s translation of that scripture leaves a little to be desired. Look at some other translations to see what they have to say on that verse.[/quote]
Angels in heaven and even Satan can commune with God, but cannot see him. He is covered in an unapproachable light.
1 Timothy 6:15-16
God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.[/quote]
Mathew 18:10
“See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.”
In regards to your scripture. Who is it talking about? And what did it mean when it said “who alone is immortal”? Do you believe in the immortality of the soul?
[/quote]
This scripture does not say arch-angle so it is not talking about Jesus correct?
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Facts, the highest of the angels was Lucifer
[/quote]
Would you be so kind as to point out the scripture where this information is found? Thanks.
[/quote]
I only have one thing to say about angels in context of this discussion:
If you believe Jesus to be an angel, and that you can worship Jesus even though you believe him to be an angel, you have a serious problem in Scripture:
Colossians 2:18 says “Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize.” The passage’s context clearly indicates that worshiping angels is a false doctrine.
Revelation 19:10 "And I fell at his feet to worship him (his angelic guide). But he said to me, 'See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!
Isaiah 42:8 "“I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another”
Now as far as your Doctrine that Jesus an angel was elevated to a position of a lesser god and that this lesser god was the savior of man - I apologize for my shortness earlier, I let me get in the way of the Word. Please allow me to get out of the way.
I will let the Word answer you:
Exodus 20:12 “And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.”
Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!”
Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are the LORD; You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and everything on it, the seas and all that is in them, and You preserve them all. The host of heaven worships You.”
Deuteronomy 4:35-39 “To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD Himself is God; there is none other besides Him…Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.”
Deuteronomy 32:39 “Now see that I, even I, am He, and there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.”
1 Samuel 2:2 “No one is holy like the LORD, for there is none besides You, nor is there any rock like our God.”
2 Samuel 7:22 “Therefore You are great, O Lord GOD. For there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You.”
I Chronicles 17:20 “O LORD, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You.”
Psalm 86:10 “You alone are God.”
I Kings 8:59-60 “And may these words of mine, with which I have made supplication before the LORD, be near the LORD our God day and night, that He may maintain the cause of His servant and the cause of His people Israel, as each day may require, that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no other.”
Isaiah 37:16 “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.”
Hosea 13:4 “Yet I am the LORD your God ever since the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me; for there is no savior besides Me.”
Isaiah 43:11 “Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior.”
Isaiah 44:6-8 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, let them show these to them. Do not fear, nor be afraid; have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.”
Isaiah 45:5-7 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; there is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.”
Isaiah 45:14 “Surely God is in you, and there is no other; there is no other God.”
Isaiah 45:21-22 “Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me. Look to Me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.”
Isaiah 46:9 “Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me.”
Joel 2:27 “Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel: I am the LORD your God and there is no other.”
Jude 1:24 "Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to make you stand without blemish in the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
I have nothing to add to the plain Word found in Scripture.[/quote]
This is a good example of a straw-man argument.
To start with, Jehovah’s Witnesses are the ones who are dead against polytheism, and they are the ones who point out that the trinity IS polytheism (think [Tri]nity…it means three…YOU worship THREE GODS…to you, they’re simply interchangeable). All those scriptures you quoted above is a warning against the trinity:
“THERE IS NO OTHER GOD EXCEPT THE FATHER”
What’s the difference between the trinity theory and what the pagans do with their tri gods? You’ll say, “ah, but it’s three in ONE, not three Gods”…well how come Jesus prayed TO God, you know, God HIS FATHER??? Was he speaking to himself? LOL When Jesus was on the crucifixion, he requests:
“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” - Luke 23:34
Does that not sound like two separate persons to you (one communicating with the other)? or is he just a man with schizophrenia??? There’s plenty more examples where that came from…
Secondly, if we ARE right, that Jesus is an angel and not God…don’t you think you should be worried about those scriptures you just quoted warning against angel worship?
Thirdly, there is a real big misconception about the NWT (“our bible”) John 1:1 rendition of “a god”:
Let me set this straight - WE DO NOT BELIEVE JESUS IS A MINI GOD, OR ANOTHER GOD.
We believe that Jesus is Godlike, Godly, divine or many other descriptions of him. The word for “god” at the end of John 1:1 in the NWT, is referring to his nature/form…NOT his position (i.e. not The Almighty). You have to understand that there are multiple meanings for the word “theos” (for God). Yes there are examples in the bible where “god” is used and not in a derogatory/false worship sense:
Psalm 82:1
God stands in the congregation of the mighty; in the midst of the [gods] He judges.
The “gods” bit here is referring to of God, not gods themselves.
Admittedly, to say “a god” at the end of John 1:1 is probably more misleading than anything else…it simply means to be God like in form or personality (e.g. in form; powerful, in personality: holy). Possible renditions (better than “a god”):
-“The Word Had God’s nature”
-“The Word was divine”
-“The Word was godlike”
How do we know that John 1:1 is not referring to Jesus as the Almighty God? Because aside from the context issues, there isn’t a definite article (reference to a noun) in front of the second “theos”, so it becomes a DESCRIPTION of Jesus (e.g. he is godly). The word theos in this sense becomes an adjective (descriptive word) not a noun (e.g. the name/title given to a person). You need to check this out with a proper Greek interlinear bible (the software versions don’t have the complete Greek). You’ll notice that in John 1:1, when John is referring to God (the Father), “ton” is used (this mean “THE”), which makes “theos” (God) a definite article; that is, it refers to a “Person”. Whereas, the second “theos” has no definite article which makes it an adjective (a description). This is how Greek works. To illustrate:
Heat and hot are two words, but practically the same (like theos). But how I use it in context changes the meaning slightly:
“I was around the heat, and I am hot”
I’m not saying that I literally am hot (heat) itself, I’m describing how I’m feeling. Likewise, the same applies at John 1:1. It’s important to get the original layout of the original text, which was:
“…the word was with THE Theos, and theos was the word”
In other words:
“Jesus was with God, and godlike was Jesus”
Double check the Greek interlinear here to see what I’m saying is true (specifically look for Strongs reference number 3588 (“ton”)…that’s the word they MISS OUT in most translations (how convenient eh?):
http://biblos.com/john/1-1.htm
So when theos becomes an adjective (e.g. a word not prefaced with “THE”), the word takes on a descriptive meaning (e.g. the other meanings for theos can be godly etc). Check it here:
Theos
http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2316.htm[/quote]
You want to talk about a strawman argument. You just defined it with your post.
Let me set this straight
JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES DO NOT BELIEVE JESUS IS A MINI GOD, OR ANOTHER GOD.
We believe that Jesus is Godlike, Godly, divine or many other descriptions of him. The word for “god” at the end of John 1:1 in the NWT, is referring to his nature/form…NOT his position (i.e. not The Almighty). You have to understand that there are multiple meanings for the word “theos” (for God).
Admittedly, to say “a god” at the end of John 1:1 is probably more misleading than anything else…it simply means to be God like in form or personality (e.g. in form; powerful, in personality: holy). Possible renditions (better than “a god”):
-“The Word Had God’s nature”
-“The Word was divine”
-“The Word was godlike”
How do we know that John 1:1 is not referring to Jesus as the Almighty God? Because aside from the context issues, there isn’t a definite article (reference to a noun) in front of the second “theos”, so it becomes a DESCRIPTION of Jesus (e.g. he is godly). The word theos in this sense becomes an adjective (descriptive word) not a noun (e.g. the name/title given to a person). You need to check this out with a proper Greek interlinear bible (the software versions don’t have the complete Greek). You’ll notice that in John 1:1, when John is referring to God (the Father), “ton” is used (this mean “THE”), which makes “theos” (God) a definite article; that is, it refers to a “Person” or “thing”. Whereas, the second “theos” has no definite article which makes it an adjective (a description). This is how Greek works. To illustrate:
Heat and hot are two words, but practically the same (like theos). But how I use it in context and my grammar changes the meaning slightly:
“I was around the heat, and hot am I”
I’m not saying that I literally am hot (heat) itself, I’m describing how I’m feeling. Likewise, the same applies at John 1:1. It’s important to get the original layout of the original text, which was:
“…the word was with THE Theos, and theos was the word”
In other words:
“Jesus was with God, and godlike was Jesus”
Double check the Greek interlinear here to see what I’m saying is true (specifically look for Strongs reference number 3588 (“ton”)…that’s the word they MISS OUT in most translations (how convenient eh?):
http://biblos.com/john/1-1.htm
So when theos becomes an adjective (e.g. a word not prefaced with “THE”), the word takes on a descriptive meaning (e.g. the other meanings for theos can be godly etc). Check it here:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
You want to talk about a strawman argument. You just defined it with your post.[/quote]
LOL, I guess you are talking about the 3 in one part? As soon as a trinitarian can explain how God speaks to Himself, is under Himself, allowed Himself to be killed, keeps secrets from Himself etc etc etc…
Then I’ll believe that “God, Jesus and holy spirit are just 3 manifestations of one God”.
You said:
“Secondly, if we ARE right, that Jesus is an angel and not God…don’t you think you should be worried about those scriptures you just quoted warning against angel worship?”
I say:
Since the verses do warn against angel worship - shouldn’t you already be worried?
You said:
“The Word Had God’s nature”
I say:
Show me anything that the nature of something that is not that thing - is it not our nature that defines who/what we are? Example - if I have the nature of a sinner, am I not a sinner?
You said:
“The Word was godlike”
I say:
2 Samuel 7:22 “Therefore You are great, O Lord GOD. For there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You”
I Chronicles 17:20 “O LORD, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You.”
Isaiah 46:9 “Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me.”
You believe:
Jesus and Jehovah are not the same:
I say:
You have a HUGE problem with these passages where Jehovah Identifies Himself as the Savior, and declares that you must Call on His name for salavtion - if they are two persons, someone is a liar;
Hosea 13:4 “Yet I am the LORD your God ever since the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me; for there is no savior besides Me.”
Isaiah 43:11 “Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior.”
Luke 2:11 "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a SAVIOUR which is CHRIST (MESSIAH) the LORD (JEHOVAH).
Joel 2:32 “And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved”
Romans 10:13 “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Acts 4:10-12 “let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that BY THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST of Nazareth, . . . by Him this man stands here before you whole. . . . Nor IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER, for there is NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN given among men BY WHICH WE MUST BE SAVED.”
You said:
How do we know that John 1:1 is not referring to Jesus as the Almighty God? Because aside from the context issues, there isn’t a definite article (reference to a noun) in front of the second “theos”, so it becomes a DESCRIPTION of Jesus (e.g. he is godly). The word theos in this sense becomes an adjective (descriptive word) not a noun (e.g. the name/title given to a person). You need to check this out with a proper Greek interlinear bible (the software versions don’t have the complete Greek). You’ll notice that in John 1:1, when John is referring to God (the Father), “ton” is used (this mean “THE”), which makes “theos” (God) a definite article; that is, it refers to a “Person”. Whereas, the second “theos” has no definite article which makes it an adjective (a description).
I say:
John 1:1 is so simple, it is impossible to get wrong.
Let’s substitute some other names in place for illustrative purposes:
“In the beginning was EVE, and EVE was with MAN, and EVE was MAN.”
As for your NWT, here is what Greek Biblical scholare have to say about it:
Barclay: Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar of the University of Glasgow, Scotland: “The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect is seen in their New testament translations. John 1:1 is translated: '…the Word was a god, ’ a translation which is grammatically impossible…It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest.”
Bowman, Robert Bowman, All scholars agree that in John 1:1 “logos” is the subject and “theos” is the predicate. This sets the translation of John 1:1c as, (The Word was God" not “God was the Word”. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus Christ, and the Gospel of John.)
Boyer: Dr. James L. Boyer of Winona Lake, Indiana: “I have never heard of, or read of any Greek Scholar who would have agreed to the interpretation of this verse insisted upon by the Jehovah’s Witnesses…I have never encountered one of them who had any knowledge of the Greek language.”
Bruce: Dr. F. F. Bruce of the University of Manchester, England: “Much is made by Arian amateur grammarians of the omission of the definite article with ‘God’ in the phrase ‘And the Word was God.’ Such an omission is common with nouns in a predicative construction…‘a god’ would be totally indefensible.” [Barclay and Bruce are generally regarded as Great Britain’s leading Greek scholars. Both have New Testament translations in print!]
Colwell: Dr. Ernest C. Colwell of the University of Chicago: “A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb…this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas. ‘My Lord and my God.’ - John 20:28”
Feinberg: Dr. Charles L. Feinberg of La Mirada, California: “I can assure you that the rendering which the Jehovah’s Witnesses give John 1:1 is not held by any reputable Greek scholar.”
Griesbach: Dr. J. J. Griesbach (whose Greek text - not the English part - is used in the Emphatic Diaglott): “So numerous and clear are the arguments and testimonies of Scriptures in favor of the true Deity of Christ, that I can hardly imagine how, upon the admission of the Divine authority of Scripture, and with regard to fair rules of interpretation, this doctrine can by any man be called in doubt. Especially the passage, John 1:1-3, is so clear and so superior to all exception, that by no daring efforts of either commentators or critics can it be snatched out of the hands of the defenders of the truth.”
Johnson: Dr. J. Johnson of California State University, Long Beach: “No justification whatsoever for translating THEOS EN HO LOGOS as ‘the Word was a god.’ There is no syntactical parallel to Acts 28:6 where there is a statement in indirect discourse; John 1:1 is direct…I am neither a Christian nor a Trinitarian.”
Kaufman: Dr. Paul L. Kaufman of Portland, Oregon: “The Jehovah’s Witnesses people evidence an abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar in their mistranslation of John 1:1.”
Mantey: “I have never read any New Testament so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures… it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe and teach. That is a distortion not a translation.” (Julius Mantey, Depth Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980), pp.136-137)
Mantey: “Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had misquoted me in support of their translation.” (These words were excerpted from the tape, “Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World Translation”, Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom interlinear Translation)
Mantey: Dr. Julius Mantey, author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT “a shocking mistranslation.” “Obsolete and incorrect.” “It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 ‘The Word was a god.’”
Mantey: the translators of the NWT are “diabolical deceivers.” (Julius Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin)
Martin: Dr. Walter R. Martin (who does not teach Greek but has studied the language): “The translation…‘a god’ instead of ‘God’ is erroneous and unsupported by any good Greek scholarship, ancient or contemporary and is a translation rejected by all recognized scholars of the Greek language may of whom are not even Christians, and cannot fairly be said to be biased in favor of the orthodox contention.”
Metzger: Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University, calls the NWT “a frightful mistranslation,” “Erroneous” and “pernicious” “reprehensible” “If the Jehovah’s Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists.” (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature)
Mikolaski: Dr. Samuel J. Mikolaski of Zurich, Switzerland: “This anarthrous (used without the article) construction does not mean what the indefinite article ‘a’ means in English. It is monstrous to translate the phrase ‘the Word was a god.’”
Nida: “With regard to John 1:1, there is of course a complication simply because the New World Translation was apparently done by persons who did not take seriously the syntax of the Greek.” (Dr. Eugene A. Nida, head of Translations Department, American Bible Society: Responsible for the Good News Bible - The committee worked under him.)
Rowley: British scholar H.H. Rowley stated, “From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated.”
Wescott: Dr. B. F. Wescott (whose Greek text - not the English part - is used in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation): “The predicate (God) stands emphatically first, as in IV.24. It is necessarily without the article…No idea of inferiority of nature is suggested by the form of expression, which simply affirms the true deity of the Word…in the third clause ‘the Word’ is declared to be ‘God’ ans so included in the unity of the Godhead.”
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
You want to talk about a strawman argument. You just defined it with your post.[/quote]
LOL, I guess you are talking about the 3 in one part? As soon as a trinitarian can explain how God speaks to Himself, is under Himself, allowed Himself to be killed, keeps secrets from Himself etc etc etc…
Then I’ll believe that “God, Jesus and holy spirit are just 3 manifestations of one God”.[/quote]
That is not the definition of Trinity. It is one in essence Three in person. 3 manifestations is not the correct term.
and for the record that definition I just gave doesn’t violate the law of non-contradiction.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
You said:
“Secondly, if we ARE right, that Jesus is an angel and not God…don’t you think you should be worried about those scriptures you just quoted warning against angel worship?”
I say:
Since the verses do warn against angel worship - shouldn’t you already be worried?
You said:
“The Word Had God’s nature”
I say:
Show me anything that the nature of something that is not that thing - is it not our nature that defines who/what we are? Example - if I have the nature of a sinner, am I not a sinner?
You said:
“The Word was godlike”
I say:
2 Samuel 7:22 “Therefore You are great, O Lord GOD. For there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You”
I Chronicles 17:20 “O LORD, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You.”
Isaiah 46:9 “Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me.”
You believe:
Jesus and Jehovah are not the same:
I say:
You have a HUGE problem with these passages where Jehovah Identifies Himself as the Savior, and declares that you must Call on His name for salavtion - if they are two persons, someone is a liar;
Hosea 13:4 “Yet I am the LORD your God ever since the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me; for there is no savior besides Me.”
Isaiah 43:11 “Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior.”
Luke 2:11 "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a SAVIOUR which is CHRIST (MESSIAH) the LORD (JEHOVAH).
Joel 2:32 “And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved”
Romans 10:13 “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Acts 4:10-12 “let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that BY THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST of Nazareth, . . . by Him this man stands here before you whole. . . . Nor IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER, for there is NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN given among men BY WHICH WE MUST BE SAVED.”
You said:
How do we know that John 1:1 is not referring to Jesus as the Almighty God? Because aside from the context issues, there isn’t a definite article (reference to a noun) in front of the second “theos”, so it becomes a DESCRIPTION of Jesus (e.g. he is godly). The word theos in this sense becomes an adjective (descriptive word) not a noun (e.g. the name/title given to a person). You need to check this out with a proper Greek interlinear bible (the software versions don’t have the complete Greek). You’ll notice that in John 1:1, when John is referring to God (the Father), “ton” is used (this mean “THE”), which makes “theos” (God) a definite article; that is, it refers to a “Person”. Whereas, the second “theos” has no definite article which makes it an adjective (a description).
I say:
John 1:1 is so simple, it is impossible to get wrong.
Let’s substitute some other names in place for illustrative purposes:
“In the beginning was EVE, and EVE was with MAN, and EVE was MAN.”
As for your NWT, here is what Greek Biblical scholare have to say about it:
Barclay: Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar of the University of Glasgow, Scotland: “The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect is seen in their New testament translations. John 1:1 is translated: '…the Word was a god, ’ a translation which is grammatically impossible…It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest.”
Bowman, Robert Bowman, All scholars agree that in John 1:1 “logos” is the subject and “theos” is the predicate. This sets the translation of John 1:1c as, (The Word was God" not “God was the Word”. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus Christ, and the Gospel of John.)
Boyer: Dr. James L. Boyer of Winona Lake, Indiana: “I have never heard of, or read of any Greek Scholar who would have agreed to the interpretation of this verse insisted upon by the Jehovah’s Witnesses…I have never encountered one of them who had any knowledge of the Greek language.”
Bruce: Dr. F. F. Bruce of the University of Manchester, England: “Much is made by Arian amateur grammarians of the omission of the definite article with ‘God’ in the phrase ‘And the Word was God.’ Such an omission is common with nouns in a predicative construction…‘a god’ would be totally indefensible.” [Barclay and Bruce are generally regarded as Great Britain’s leading Greek scholars. Both have New Testament translations in print!]
Colwell: Dr. Ernest C. Colwell of the University of Chicago: “A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb…this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas. ‘My Lord and my God.’ - John 20:28”
Feinberg: Dr. Charles L. Feinberg of La Mirada, California: “I can assure you that the rendering which the Jehovah’s Witnesses give John 1:1 is not held by any reputable Greek scholar.”
Griesbach: Dr. J. J. Griesbach (whose Greek text - not the English part - is used in the Emphatic Diaglott): “So numerous and clear are the arguments and testimonies of Scriptures in favor of the true Deity of Christ, that I can hardly imagine how, upon the admission of the Divine authority of Scripture, and with regard to fair rules of interpretation, this doctrine can by any man be called in doubt. Especially the passage, John 1:1-3, is so clear and so superior to all exception, that by no daring efforts of either commentators or critics can it be snatched out of the hands of the defenders of the truth.”
Johnson: Dr. J. Johnson of California State University, Long Beach: “No justification whatsoever for translating THEOS EN HO LOGOS as ‘the Word was a god.’ There is no syntactical parallel to Acts 28:6 where there is a statement in indirect discourse; John 1:1 is direct…I am neither a Christian nor a Trinitarian.”
Kaufman: Dr. Paul L. Kaufman of Portland, Oregon: “The Jehovah’s Witnesses people evidence an abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar in their mistranslation of John 1:1.”
Mantey: “I have never read any New Testament so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures… it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe and teach. That is a distortion not a translation.” (Julius Mantey, Depth Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980), pp.136-137)
Mantey: “Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had misquoted me in support of their translation.” (These words were excerpted from the tape, “Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World Translation”, Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom interlinear Translation)
Mantey: Dr. Julius Mantey, author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT “a shocking mistranslation.” “Obsolete and incorrect.” “It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 ‘The Word was a god.’”
Mantey: the translators of the NWT are “diabolical deceivers.” (Julius Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin)
Martin: Dr. Walter R. Martin (who does not teach Greek but has studied the language): “The translation…‘a god’ instead of ‘God’ is erroneous and unsupported by any good Greek scholarship, ancient or contemporary and is a translation rejected by all recognized scholars of the Greek language may of whom are not even Christians, and cannot fairly be said to be biased in favor of the orthodox contention.”
Metzger: Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University, calls the NWT “a frightful mistranslation,” “Erroneous” and “pernicious” “reprehensible” “If the Jehovah’s Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists.” (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature)
Mikolaski: Dr. Samuel J. Mikolaski of Zurich, Switzerland: “This anarthrous (used without the article) construction does not mean what the indefinite article ‘a’ means in English. It is monstrous to translate the phrase ‘the Word was a god.’”
Nida: “With regard to John 1:1, there is of course a complication simply because the New World Translation was apparently done by persons who did not take seriously the syntax of the Greek.” (Dr. Eugene A. Nida, head of Translations Department, American Bible Society: Responsible for the Good News Bible - The committee worked under him.)
Rowley: British scholar H.H. Rowley stated, “From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated.”
Wescott: Dr. B. F. Wescott (whose Greek text - not the English part - is used in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation): “The predicate (God) stands emphatically first, as in IV.24. It is necessarily without the article…No idea of inferiority of nature is suggested by the form of expression, which simply affirms the true deity of the Word…in the third clause ‘the Word’ is declared to be ‘God’ ans so included in the unity of the Godhead.”[/quote]
Where was I arguing that John 1:1 should state “the word is a god”?
I specifically admitted that this is misleading
Where do those scholars (the majority of whom are trinitarians) cover anything that I said in my post? Other than to say it shouldn’t be “a god”?
Do you have your own opinion based on your own findings/common sense/actually study, or do you just prefer to cut and paste?
As regards the scriptures you took out of context - they are referring to FALSE gods, not Jesus. Obviously, God was trying to hammer into the ancient nation of Israel that it is futile and pointless to worship other gods - because the other FALSE gods are not like Him (they couldn’t tell the future, do powerful works etc)…FALSE gods don’t even compare to God.
“John 1:1 is so simple, it is impossible to get wrong.”
Completely agree, hence my illustration of heat and hot, which fits and makes sense, unlike:
[quote]Let’s substitute some other names in place for illustrative purposes:
"In the beginning was EVE, and EVE was with MAN, and EVE was MAN.[/quote]
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:
<<< Thanks for your response, but I think you misunderstood me. I was simply asking for you to cite a scripture regarding your claim of Lucifer being the highest of the angels. I am also not a JW, I am merely curious as to where in the Bible this fact is made clear.[/quote]
Isaiah 14:12-17 (King James Version)
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
In my opinion this passage is not NECESSARILY referring to Satan himself for a bunch of reasons I’ll let somebody else get into if they are so inclined. It may be and it isn’t ridiculous to think that it does. I’ve gone back and forth. It also doesn’t imperil the soul one way or another so honest people can disagree here.[/quote]
Thank you. If this is indeed a duel-meaning scripture that is directed at Satan as well as the king of Babylon, I still am not sure I see the connection to Satan being the highest of the angels.
[quote]haney1 wrote:
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
You want to talk about a strawman argument. You just defined it with your post.[/quote]
LOL, I guess you are talking about the 3 in one part? As soon as a trinitarian can explain how God speaks to Himself, is under Himself, allowed Himself to be killed, keeps secrets from Himself etc etc etc…
Then I’ll believe that “God, Jesus and holy spirit are just 3 manifestations of one God”.[/quote]
That is not the definition of Trinity. It is one in essence Three in person. 3 manifestations is not the correct term.
and for the record that definition I just gave doesn’t violate the law of non-contradiction.[/quote]
Sorry, but it looks like the same definition to me? I’m only going by expressions other trinitarians have used…
The bottom line is, the bible says to only worship the Father…that excludes Jesus and the holy spirit.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]haney1 wrote:
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
You want to talk about a strawman argument. You just defined it with your post.[/quote]
LOL, I guess you are talking about the 3 in one part? As soon as a trinitarian can explain how God speaks to Himself, is under Himself, allowed Himself to be killed, keeps secrets from Himself etc etc etc…
Then I’ll believe that “God, Jesus and holy spirit are just 3 manifestations of one God”.[/quote]
That is not the definition of Trinity. It is one in essence Three in person. 3 manifestations is not the correct term.
and for the record that definition I just gave doesn’t violate the law of non-contradiction.[/quote]
Sorry, but it looks like the same definition to me? I’m only going by expressions other trinitarians have used…
The bottom line is, the bible says to only worship the Father…that excludes Jesus and the holy spirit.[/quote]
They are not the same and any trinitarian that gave you that definition lacks the understanding of what it is.
Your last sentence is misleading and inaccurate at best.
[quote]haney1 wrote:
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]haney1 wrote:
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
You want to talk about a strawman argument. You just defined it with your post.[/quote]
LOL, I guess you are talking about the 3 in one part? As soon as a trinitarian can explain how God speaks to Himself, is under Himself, allowed Himself to be killed, keeps secrets from Himself etc etc etc…
Then I’ll believe that “God, Jesus and holy spirit are just 3 manifestations of one God”.[/quote]
That is not the definition of Trinity. It is one in essence Three in person. 3 manifestations is not the correct term.
and for the record that definition I just gave doesn’t violate the law of non-contradiction.[/quote]
Sorry, but it looks like the same definition to me? I’m only going by expressions other trinitarians have used…
The bottom line is, the bible says to only worship the Father…that excludes Jesus and the holy spirit.[/quote]
Your last sentence is misleading and inaccurate at best.
[/quote]
Please elaborate?
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Where was I arguing that John 1:1 should state “the word is a god”?
I specifically admitted that this is misleading
Where do those scholars (the majority of whom are trinitarians) cover anything that I said in my post? Other than to say it shouldn’t be “a god”?
Do you have your own opinion based on your own findings/common sense/actually study, or do you just prefer to cut and paste?
As regards the scriptures you took out of context - they are referring to FALSE gods, not Jesus. Obviously, God was trying to hammer into the ancient nation of Israel that it is futile and pointless to worship other gods - because the other FALSE gods are not like Him (they couldn’t tell the future, do powerful works etc)…FALSE gods don’t even compare to God.
“John 1:1 is so simple, it is impossible to get wrong.”
Completely agree, hence my illustration of heat and hot, which fits and makes sense, unlike:
[quote]Let’s substitute some other names in place for illustrative purposes:
"In the beginning was EVE, and EVE was with MAN, and EVE was MAN.[/quote][/quote]
Starting from the top:
You’re just going to ignore the testimony of the best of the best Greek Scholars - a number of whom are not even Christian, let alone trinitarian? If you would ignore the experts, then why would my opinion matter? My opinion would be even easier to discount than that of the absolute best experts on the language itself. Your issue is not with me, but with the text itself.
I did not take the scriptures out of context, I merely quoted what the Bible plainly says. God was explicit that there is NO ONE LIKE HIM. end of story, no twist, no spin, no hype.
there’s no point in addressing your passage misinterpretation of John1:1, since you will not heed the testimnoy of the experts, there’s simply nothing left to say on that matter.
[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:
<<< Thanks for your response, but I think you misunderstood me. I was simply asking for you to cite a scripture regarding your claim of Lucifer being the highest of the angels. I am also not a JW, I am merely curious as to where in the Bible this fact is made clear.[/quote]
Isaiah 14:12-17 (King James Version)
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
In my opinion this passage is not NECESSARILY referring to Satan himself for a bunch of reasons I’ll let somebody else get into if they are so inclined. It may be and it isn’t ridiculous to think that it does. I’ve gone back and forth. It also doesn’t imperil the soul one way or another so honest people can disagree here.[/quote]
Thank you. If this is indeed a duel-meaning scripture that is directed at Satan as well as the king of Babylon, I still am not sure I see the connection to Satan being the highest of the angels.[/quote]
There’s no doubt that Satan had a lot of responsibility in heaven; he must have had some sort of authority to have been able to get angels to follow him (and become demons). Also, he must have had some sort of “high ranking” to have had the nerve to challenge Jesus. You could say that the “power went to his head”.
In my opinion, no one can say conclusively one way or the other since the bible isn’t very specific about heavenly life.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]haney1 wrote:
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]haney1 wrote:
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
You want to talk about a strawman argument. You just defined it with your post.[/quote]
LOL, I guess you are talking about the 3 in one part? As soon as a trinitarian can explain how God speaks to Himself, is under Himself, allowed Himself to be killed, keeps secrets from Himself etc etc etc…
Then I’ll believe that “God, Jesus and holy spirit are just 3 manifestations of one God”.[/quote]
That is not the definition of Trinity. It is one in essence Three in person. 3 manifestations is not the correct term.
and for the record that definition I just gave doesn’t violate the law of non-contradiction.[/quote]
Sorry, but it looks like the same definition to me? I’m only going by expressions other trinitarians have used…
The bottom line is, the bible says to only worship the Father…that excludes Jesus and the holy spirit.[/quote]
Your last sentence is misleading and inaccurate at best.
[/quote]
Please elaborate?[/quote]
Because there are many times in the Bible where Jesus receives praise and worship in the NT.