Traditional Marriage?

[quote]florelius wrote:
Traditional marriage would be what the paleolitic humans had( paleoliticum represents something like 90% of the existence of homo sapiens ), but we dont know for shure if they even had something like marriage!

This discussion boils down to what people prefer. If you dont like samesex-marriage then say that, but dont make historicaly incorrect claims to what marriage originally are or are supposed to be.

[/quote]

We’ve changed the terms, I don’t know who came up with traditional marriage, but we’re calling it rational marriage. Further, traditional doesn’t mean oldest, it means traditional.

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

This solution is just calling marriage by a different name. Which brings up the issue, why is the label so important in the first place? I don’t see why this couldn’t accomplish the same thing.[/quote]

Because the government is not (and never has been) simply in the business of rewarding people for their choices in any old relationship. The label matters because the label sets a certain relationship above and apart from other relationships because society has an interest in promoting that relationship, not so much the others.

Seriously.[/quote]

Not like any of us has said this already 6000 times or so.

Yet this specific point, the actual crux of this issue, will be ignored, again, because there IS NO getting around it. As therapeutic marriage opponents muleheadedly refuse to budge one inch from their bigoted position.

[/quote]

I don’t understand, what makes the label of “marriage” too “above and apart” for gay couples? [/quote]

Heterosexual married couples, as a general rule, provide an absolutely essential service to society. Many services, actually, the repercussions of which are manifold in turn. Homosexual unions do not provide any of these essential services, and as such, have no business being rewarded as if they do. Again, this is the crux of the matter.

If homosexual couples are to be rewarded, then why not college roommates? What makes this particular pairing so much more special than 3 fishing buddies who’ve committed to lifelong bachelorship and a common cabin on the Potomak?

[quote]Sloth wrote:
“Renting a Mother.” Yes, those words were used.

I actually wasted my time reading this thread? [/quote]

That is what marriage was for the longest time.

Admittedly, you were outright buying her, but there certainly was a financial aspect to it.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

I dont see how that is even relevant because it marriage was natural there would not be a social struggle to define it this or that way. [/quote]

You have it backwards - it’s precisely because rational marriage has a natural foundation - it’s rational, and it naturally applies to a certain kind of natural relationship (those that produce children) - that there is a “social struggle to define it this or that way”.

I posed this in another thread long ago - assume a world where heterosexuals don’t produce any offspring. Heterosexuals exist alongside homosexuals, and their relationships are basically (biologically) identical - in neither situation does coupling lead to offspring.

In such a world, is there any reason for marriage to exist for heterosexuals at all, with no children resulting from their relationships?

The answer is - of course not.

And that answer is true for homosexual relationships, for precisely the same reasons.[/quote]

First of all, your claim to own a “rational” stance when it comes to social institutions as opposed to other peoples beliefs is laughable.

Its nice that you have found your inner central planner and that he wishes to display a pretension of knowledge but lets us not pretend that this is anything more than that.

Marriage wants to change and you want to prevent that, which is social engineering, pure and simple.

As for “natural foundations”, well, the wish of homosexuals to live in relationships that are recognized by their tribe surely has a biological foundation too.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

This solution is just calling marriage by a different name. Which brings up the issue, why is the label so important in the first place? I don’t see why this couldn’t accomplish the same thing.[/quote]

Because the government is not (and never has been) simply in the business of rewarding people for their choices in any old relationship. The label matters because the label sets a certain relationship above and apart from other relationships because society has an interest in promoting that relationship, not so much the others.

Seriously.[/quote]

Not like any of us has said this already 6000 times or so.

Yet this specific point, the actual crux of this issue, will be ignored, again, because there IS NO getting around it. As therapeutic marriage opponents muleheadedly refuse to budge one inch from their bigoted position.

[/quote]

Well, governments role obviously has changed over the last 200 years and its role right now is very much therapeutic.

Leaving aside that the petitions to government to “preserve traditional marriage” are too therapeutic in nature it is a question of basic fairness that if straight people are coddled, so are gay people.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

This solution is just calling marriage by a different name. Which brings up the issue, why is the label so important in the first place? I don’t see why this couldn’t accomplish the same thing.[/quote]

Because the government is not (and never has been) simply in the business of rewarding people for their choices in any old relationship. The label matters because the label sets a certain relationship above and apart from other relationships because society has an interest in promoting that relationship, not so much the others.

Seriously.[/quote]

Not like any of us has said this already 6000 times or so.

Yet this specific point, the actual crux of this issue, will be ignored, again, because there IS NO getting around it. As therapeutic marriage opponents muleheadedly refuse to budge one inch from their bigoted position.

[/quote]

I don’t understand, what makes the label of “marriage” too “above and apart” for gay couples? [/quote]

Heterosexual married couples, as a general rule, provide an absolutely essential service to society. Many services, actually, the repercussions of which are manifold in turn. Homosexual unions do not provide any of these essential services, and as such, have no business being rewarded as if they do. Again, this is the crux of the matter.

If homosexual couples are to be rewarded, then why not college roommates? What makes this particular pairing so much more special than 3 fishing buddies who’ve committed to lifelong bachelorship and a common cabin on the Potomak?[/quote]

Where is this “society” you are talking about and how can I get in touch with her to get my money back?

No, YOU want government subsidies for your pet project, lets call it what it is.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
Traditional marriage would be what the paleolitic humans had( paleoliticum represents something like 90% of the existence of homo sapiens ), but we dont know for shure if they even had something like marriage!

This discussion boils down to what people prefer. If you dont like samesex-marriage then say that, but dont make historicaly incorrect claims to what marriage originally are or are supposed to be.

[/quote]

We’ve changed the terms, I don’t know who came up with traditional marriage, but we’re calling it rational marriage. Further, traditional doesn’t mean oldest, it means traditional. [/quote]

lol, so you mean to say, you were calling it one thing, but due to confusion and people interpreting it in different ways, you decided to call it something else…interesting

[quote]qsar wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
Traditional marriage would be what the paleolitic humans had( paleoliticum represents something like 90% of the existence of homo sapiens ), but we dont know for shure if they even had something like marriage!

This discussion boils down to what people prefer. If you dont like samesex-marriage then say that, but dont make historicaly incorrect claims to what marriage originally are or are supposed to be.

[/quote]

We’ve changed the terms, I don’t know who came up with traditional marriage, but we’re calling it rational marriage. Further, traditional doesn’t mean oldest, it means traditional. [/quote]

lol, so you mean to say, you were calling it one thing, but due to confusion and people interpreting it in different ways, you decided to call it something else…interesting[/quote]

No, I didn’t. I just agreed to go along with the new terms. I use heterosexual and homosexual couples in face-to-face debates.

To my righteous Christian friends:

I FULLY respect that YOU have a religion. Your religion has rules and beliefs and who am I to tell you what to believe? I support your right to believe as you wish and to practice YOUR religion in the way that gives you the best spiritual comfort.

But this is not a religious issue… We do not live in the “United Christian States of America”. If we did, then we wouldn’t have all these pesky laws that guarantee the rights and freedoms for all those “jooos” and “islamists” and “towel heads” and <<>>.

It’s a constitutional issue, plain and simple. By giving married couples privileges that same-sex couples WISH to have, yet deny their right to an avenue to attain said privileges, you are in effect disenfranchising a segment of United States CITIZENS who have EVERY RIGHT under the Constitution to pursue their vision of happiness.

There is a CLEAR Constitutional separation of Church and State. That’s one of the MAIN REASONS that people came here from England and founded this country in the first place, so the Government couldn’t tell them how practice THEIR religion.

Why is it that Christians and Catholics can’t stay the fuck out of everyone’s business? We get it: YOUR RELIGION has a book that says it’s BAAAAAAAAAD to be a homosexual. The book says a LOT of things. We’ve had threads and threads about the contradictions and inaccuracies of that book, but I digress…

IT AIN’T THE ONLY FUCKING BOOK!!! (We know, you like to think it is, but it really ISN’T! - no matter how much “faith” you have or how much you pretend and stick your head in the sand and make ad homonym attacks against people who have the audacity to say otherwise)

There are homosexual Christians that go to church every Sunday and donate to your conveniently tax exempt institution. (yes, they exist - even within the institution of the Church itself! Look at all the Catholic priests who fuck with little boys! Hell, you’d think they’d want to give those old perverts an avenue of “release”! LOL) but I digress… It’s far too easy to poke fun at the hypocrisy of MEMBERS if the Church engaging in Homo acts and it isn’t really the point.

The bottom line is this: If you don’t want the gay people in your religion getting married in your church, then by all means, don’t let them get married IN YOUR CHURCH. But when you start taking your FAITH BASED belief and imposing it on EVERYONE in the United States of America (ALL of whom are entitled to the rights guaranteed under the Constitution, just like you Christians), then you’re crossing the line. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; etc…”

What part of that don’t you understand?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

That is quite the non-sequitor. However, this has nothing to do with the topic unless you’d like to explain your quips further.[/quote]

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
That’s super, Einstein - but take a Ritalin and try and focus on what is really being argued, not your prepackaged hipster shortcut arguments that aren’t responsive to anyone’s points.

Homosexuals don’t naturally produce children. It’s science. Consider taking a class.[/quote]

Your trolling is amusing. In my first (second) post I wrote several things, you trolls pick up the children thing, I answer back and now you two are like “dude, don’t talk about children”. Derp.

I especially love the bolded part, considering it’s what you troll have done with my posts. Hilarious.

I keep saying trolls because there’s no way you are this retarded.

Just to show Brother Chris trolling.

My first post :

[quote]Edevus wrote:
Orion, we both know those are just excuses they will use.
Traditional marriage = What you wrote.

Natural marriage = What’s exactly natural in a documented monogamy that started taking place 8000 years ago?

“They can’t have children! Marriage comes from ‘mother’!” = Heterosexuals who can’t have children (for any reason), are allowed to marry. Not all women become mothers. Homosexual couples can have natural children (renting a mother if m/m, getting one of them pregnant if w/w).

And etc.

[/quote]

What Brother Chris picks up TWICE :

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:
Homosexual couples can have natural children.
[/quote]

Please explain. I would really like to know how this is biologically possible.[/quote]

I answer back and then he says :

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

That is quite the non-sequitor. However, this has nothing to do with the topic unless you’d like to explain your quips further.[/quote]

Improve your trolling.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Heterosexual married couples, as a general rule, provide an absolutely essential service to society. Many services, actually, the repercussions of which are manifold in turn. Homosexual unions do not provide any of these essential services, and as such, have no business being rewarded as if they do. Again, this is the crux of the matter.

If homosexual couples are to be rewarded, then why not college roommates? What makes this particular pairing so much more special than 3 fishing buddies who’ve committed to lifelong bachelorship and a common cabin on the Potomak?[/quote]

What are heterosexual couples providing? Children? Homosexual couples can be parents as well, while heterosexual couples can choose to not be.

What now? Should heterosexual couples who are unable/don’t want to have children be forcefully divorced?

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Heterosexual married couples, as a general rule, provide an absolutely essential service to society. Many services, actually, the repercussions of which are manifold in turn. Homosexual unions do not provide any of these essential services, and as such, have no business being rewarded as if they do. Again, this is the crux of the matter.

If homosexual couples are to be rewarded, then why not college roommates? What makes this particular pairing so much more special than 3 fishing buddies who’ve committed to lifelong bachelorship and a common cabin on the Potomak?[/quote]

What are heterosexual couples providing? Children? Homosexual couples can be parents as well, while heterosexual couples can choose to not be.

What now? Should heterosexual couples who are unable/don’t want to have children be forcefully divorced? [/quote]

That’s the only ‘logical’ solution if they take the “well fags can’t have children” argument to it’s logical conclusion.

But we all know these Christians aren’t logical…

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Heterosexual married couples, as a general rule, provide an absolutely essential service to society. Many services, actually, the repercussions of which are manifold in turn. Homosexual unions do not provide any of these essential services, and as such, have no business being rewarded as if they do. Again, this is the crux of the matter.

If homosexual couples are to be rewarded, then why not college roommates? What makes this particular pairing so much more special than 3 fishing buddies who’ve committed to lifelong bachelorship and a common cabin on the Potomak?[/quote]

What are heterosexual couples providing? Children? Homosexual couples can be parents as well, while heterosexual couples can choose to not be.

What now? Should heterosexual couples who are unable/don’t want to have children be forcefully divorced? [/quote]

That’s the only ‘logical’ solution if they take the “well fags can’t have children” argument to it’s logical conclusion.

But we all know these Christians aren’t logical… [/quote]

But they sure bring ‘nature’ and ‘science’ to the topic when it’s useful (?) for them.

One more.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

This solution is just calling marriage by a different name. Which brings up the issue, why is the label so important in the first place? I don’t see why this couldn’t accomplish the same thing.[/quote]

Because the government is not (and never has been) simply in the business of rewarding people for their choices in any old relationship. The label matters because the label sets a certain relationship above and apart from other relationships because society has an interest in promoting that relationship, not so much the others.

Seriously.[/quote]

Not like any of us has said this already 6000 times or so.

Yet this specific point, the actual crux of this issue, will be ignored, again, because there IS NO getting around it. As therapeutic marriage opponents muleheadedly refuse to budge one inch from their bigoted position.

[…]

Heterosexual married couples, as a general rule, provide an absolutely essential service to society. Many services, actually, the repercussions of which are manifold in turn. Homosexual unions do not provide any of these essential services, and as such, have no business being rewarded as if they do. Again, this is the crux of the matter.

If homosexual couples are to be rewarded, then why not college roommates? What makes this particular pairing so much more special than 3 fishing buddies who’ve committed to lifelong bachelorship and a common cabin on the Potomak?
[/quote]

That can and should be disputed.

First of all, you assert that the government hands out rewards for proper behaviour. Without questioning the moral aspect of it, society does that, too.
Both don’t overlap neatly.
Someone may be a hero in the eyes of citizens but is officially condemned until 100 years later, where this may just reverse.
So from that angle, your argument merely says that state officials are prudent to reward a certain behaviour they deem constructive. There’s little objectivity to it.

Seriously, since when are government incentives the moral measuring stick?
Affirmative action, for instance, is widely frowned upon in these fora.
Where is the difference?

As for a naturalistic argument, that ship has long sailed. We won’t die out - in actuality, this argument must do a u-turn and reward couples for not procreating.
We are already too many people, so not fathering 2.2 children seems a rational, commendable thing.
Also, looking at the technical side of it, it doesn’t look like we’ll lose the ability to procreate if we grant gays full rights to marry. And those already mentioned alternative methods of making children and new models of parenthood are simply here to stay, wether one likes it or not.

[quote]orion wrote:

First of all, your claim to own a “rational” stance when it comes to social institutions as opposed to other peoples beliefs is laughable. [/quote]

No, it isn’t, which is why you didn’t explain why.

Signature Orion incoherence.

Yes, it is, it is precisely that - social engineering. I never said it was anything else.

But, gay marriage advocates want to change marriage and…you guessed it…wait for it…are therefore engaging in…the anticipation is too much…social engineering as well.

Well done, Orion. You are a social engineer to the very core, and a radical one that refuses to look before you leap. Nice, but your libertarian paymasters would like to have a word with you.

No, it doesn’t.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

What part of that don’t you understand?[/quote]

The part where you are completely incorrect about it being a constitutional matter. You don’t have a constitutonal right to “pursue happiness” (whatever that means exactly), and we - meaning society - have a right to pass laws for the good of society as long as they have a rational basis.

Is there a rational basis behind rational marriage? Yes. Rational marriage (primarily) helps govern the space in society that has to deal with procreation and the public impact when there is a lack of order in this process. This policy of rational marriage wouldn’t apply to gays, as they don’t procreate, have out-of-wedlock children, etc.

Rational. Again, it is the same policy rationale as not allowng young people to participate in Medicare - the policy aim of Medicare was to help senior citizens get health care coverage in their old age, not young people. Young people may be upset that they don’t get the same benefits as old people under Medicare, but that is irrelevant - the law wasn’t passed to deal with issues facing young people, it doesn’t apply to them and their situations. and young people don’t have some manufactured constitutional “right” to the Medicare benefits on account of being “discriminated against” as compared to privileged older people.

Rational.

[quote]Edevus wrote:

Improve your trolling. [/quote]

Poor Edevus. Still not able to keep pace, are you?

Maybe you can try and again convince us that “renting mothers” is “natural”?

Hilarious. Just hilarious.

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

But we all know these Christians aren’t logical… [/quote]

Incorrect.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:

So from that angle, your argument merely says that state officials are prudent to reward a certain behaviour they deem constructive. There’s little objectivity to it.

[/quote]

Yup. That’s exactly the argument. You are wrong, however. It is highly objective. The law as it currently stands serves to order childbearing, encourage stable families consisting of children who are raised by each his own biological mother and father. This arrangement is superior to all other arrangements. Period. And the state has a vested interest in encouraging it.

We want societies that look more like Salt Lake City, Utah than Detroit, Michigan.

There are thousands of social programs that already exist. To speak plainly for a moment, many of them serve to create or maintain a stable, ordered society (current marriage law would fall under this category) and others serve to turn it into a crappier place to live (no-fault divorce and some categories of welfare are examples of the latter). The privileges extended to married couples are justified by the reciprocal benefit to society. Less single-parent households. More kids growing up with their own biological mothers and fathers. The birth of new taxpayers to propagate and fund this society. In other words, the programs do no exist to serve married couple, but to serve society itself. I have yet to see a single compelling argument as to how allowing homosexual unions will provide some benefit to society that would justify the legal recognition of these unions as somehow special. Nor, for that matter, why homosexual unions, in particular, are singled out as, “also special,” yet other arrangements are somehow deserving of discrimination.

I don’t care. None of this is what the current argument is about.

EDIT: Fixed quote tags, cut text. Hopefully it takes.

[quote]Edevus wrote:

What are heterosexual couples providing? Children?

[/quote]

Uh, yeah. Exactly.

See my previous post. Any imbecile can “be” a parent. We don’t want to reward people just for “being” parents. We are encouraging a certain kind of arrangement, for a very specific, and vital, reason.

[quote]

What now? Should heterosexual couples who are unable/don’t want to have children be forcefully divorced? [/quote]

This gets thrown around as some kind of “gotcha” counter that is almost too stupid to justify a response, but, for the real dullards out there:

Marriage, as it stands, is going to necessarily be somewhat overly inclusive, because 1. Childless and similar couples still serve as an encouraging model for the situation we are seeking and 2. It would be impractical and unethical to do what you suggest. 3. It is NOT, however, impractical or unethical to decide not to extend marriage benefits to a group who will not now nor at any time in the future either be capable of fulfilling the aforementioned vital functions we seek to encourage, nor do they represent the model we seek to encourage. See Tbolt’s above reference to young peoples’ receiving Medicare for further clarification upon this point.