'Traditional Marriage'

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]jayski wrote:
What puzzles me is why both sides give a shit about this. On the for gay marriage side, what’s really the big deal? If you love whoever you are with, what do you need a marriage certificate for? Is it for show? Is it because it’s something you can’t have? [/quote]

To address this part of your question, the reason I give a shit is because there are 1,000 rights granted through federal marriage that my partner and I don’t currently have. We don’t get social security benefits, we can’t file jointly on our tax returns, we don’t get hospital visitation rights, and the list goes on. Beyond that, being legally bound to another person, with the associated rights and responsibilities, provides stability to the couple and any children they may have.

82

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
I don’t recall mentioning religion one time on any of the gay threads and neither have you.[/quote]

Of course you’re not going to mention religion because it isn’t in your best interest to do so. Who wants to admit that their religion is the reason for discriminating against someone else?

In many (but not all) cases, people opposed to granting gays equal rights do so because of their religious belief that homosexuality is a sin. Their morality is informed by their religious beliefs.

Not all homophobes are religious, just as not all racial bigots and misogynysts are religious. However, people often use their religion to internally rationalize their discrimination against others.

83

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
It doesn’t even support his position; notice all the passages he quoted describe heterosexual relationships. There isn’t a fag marriage of any type anywhere in the bible.
[/quote]

The post wasn’t about the bible supporting gay marriage, genius. It was about the hypocrisy of opposing gay marriage on the basis of defending so-called traditional marriage, when the truth is that polygamy and other forms of marriage have been around at least as long, and are sanctioned by the same holy book.

84

[quote]Bigd1970 wrote:
Gays can change their minds about being gay, Blacks can’t change anything. Where is the comparison?[/quote]

  1. Sexual orientation isn’t a choice. If it were, I would have chosen to stay married to my wife.

  2. Even if sexual orientation were a choice, civil equality is granted on the basis of choice all the time. Last time I checked people can change their religion, but that doesn’t justify granting different civil benefits to people based on their religion.

[quote]Yet he proclaims to not believe in the good book. I did not see him quote any scriptures on being gay and how it is acceptable to God. I guess he could not find any?
[/quote]

The point is not that your holy book is based on fairy tales (which it is), but rather that you don’t even know your holy book because it specifically sanctions polygamy and other forms of marriage, despite your claim that “traditional marriage” is a 5,000 year old institution.

85

[quote]Bigd1970 wrote:
I also agree that we should not have to worry about gay marriage being taught in schools. We should not have to worry about any type of marriage being taught in schools, because it is a subject that should be taught and discussed by parents, with their children IN THEIR OWN HOMES. So should Sex Education and a vast number of other subjects, that are being taught in schools today.[/quote]

I agree.

[quote]But, believe it or not there are those, who actually believe in God, The Bible, Book of Mormon, Quran, or whatever other religious books they want to claim. I personally do not agree with all religious persuasions out there, in fact some of them worry me a great deal but I’m not going to discount another persons beliefs, and if asked, I will answer their questions.
[/quote]

I think people should have the right to believe whatever they want, whether or not it reflects objective reality. What I find objectionable is when they justify discriminating against my civil rights based on those beliefs.

86

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Then why not be happy with a civil union or domestic partnership? Anyone opposed to this is a bit of a weiner in my book.[/quote]

I would be perfectly happy with a civil union or domestic partnership, as long as it provided the same federal benefits available to marriage. Unfortunately, that isn’t the case today.

87

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Then get married. Who cares if the state or church don’t recognize it? You just said you didn’t care about recognition.
[/quote]

Again, because there are over 1,000 benefits available from federally-recognized marriage that are currently denied to gay couples.

On marriage being a civil right, the California supreme court ruled:

88

[quote]Sloth wrote:
As time progressed, the problems with polygamy became more and more obvious, and it stopped being practiced.[/quote]

Exactly my point.

The definition of marriage changed even within the bible, despite fundamentalists claiming that there is some exclusive 5,000 year old institution of marriage.

89

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
As time progressed, the problems with polygamy became more and more obvious, and it stopped being practiced.

Exactly my point.

The definition of marriage changed even within the bible, despite fundamentalists claiming that there is some exclusive 5,000 year old institution of marriage. [/quote]

As far as Christians are concerned, 1 man and 1 one wife is a traditional marriage. As, I’ve posted above. As far as the US is concerned, 1 man and 1 woman. We aren’t talking about the traditions of some far off place.

90

[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
wah…Maybe you should just get over it. It has been put to the people of these here States United and shot down in flames in even to most liberal of places.

You mean places like Massachusetts and Connecticut, not to mention the 10 other states that allow civil unions/domestic partnerships?[/quote]

Oh, you mean where the courts have legislated from the bench? Because gay marriage lost hard core every place it has been put to a public vote.

And, why do you just move their and shut the hell up about it…It was put on ballots and it lost everywhere. Go to where you can get married and quit whining that people don’t want to bend to your whims.

91

[quote]forlife wrote:
Bigd1970 wrote:
Gays can change their minds about being gay, Blacks can’t change anything. Where is the comparison?

  1. Sexual orientation isn’t a choice. If it were, I would have chosen to stay married to my wife.

  2. Even if sexual orientation were a choice, civil equality is granted on the basis of choice all the time. Last time I checked people can change their religion, but that doesn’t justify granting different civil benefits to people based on their religion.

Yet he proclaims to not believe in the good book. I did not see him quote any scriptures on being gay and how it is acceptable to God. I guess he could not find any?

The point is not that your holy book is based on fairy tales (which it is), but rather that you don’t even know your holy book because it specifically sanctions polygamy and other forms of marriage, despite your claim that “traditional marriage” is a 5,000 year old institution.[/quote]

It may or may not be a choice, it is however, not the same as things like the struggle for black rights.

You’re rights are not in any way based on any sort of choice or genetic predisposition. If I were one day to declare myself gay, my legal abilities and rights DO NOT CHANGE. I remain subject to the exact same laws applied exactly the same way regardless. No legal judgments or the application of laws changed based on a person’s sexuality. There are no differences in punishment or benefit that are legally decided based in any part based on a person’s sexuality.

If there were, for example, laws that applied or were enforced based on a genetic observable marker for homosexuality, then it would be similar to the struggle for black rights. Say, if green eyes were a visible identifier for genetic predisposition for homosexuality, and they legislated that green eyed people couldn’t use public restrooms.

As for changing religions, no, your rights do not change. All the same laws apply to all religions. Regardless of what religion you are, it is illegal to commit murder. If you change to a religion that orders you to commit murder, it is still illegal, whether you a baptist or budist. It is not discrimination or a rights violation or infringement on religion to not allow any religion to commit murder.

92

[quote]forlife wrote:
jayski wrote:
What puzzles me is why both sides give a shit about this. On the for gay marriage side, what’s really the big deal? If you love whoever you are with, what do you need a marriage certificate for? Is it for show? Is it because it’s something you can’t have?

To address this part of your question, the reason I give a shit is because there are 1,000 rights granted through federal marriage that my partner and I don’t currently have. We don’t get social security benefits, we can’t file jointly on our tax returns, we don’t get hospital visitation rights, and the list goes on. Beyond that, being legally bound to another person, with the associated rights and responsibilities, provides stability to the couple and any children they may have.[/quote]

I actually didn’t know this part.

93

[quote]pat wrote:
forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
wah…Maybe you should just get over it. It has been put to the people of these here States United and shot down in flames in even to most liberal of places.

You mean places like Massachusetts and Connecticut, not to mention the 10 other states that allow civil unions/domestic partnerships?

Oh, you mean where the courts have legislated from the bench? Because gay marriage lost hard core every place it has been put to a public vote.

And, why do you just move their and shut the hell up about it…It was put on ballots and it lost everywhere. Go to where you can get married and quit whining that people don’t want to bend to your whims. [/quote]

I still don’t understand why it’s such a big deal to many that gays shouldn’t marry. It doesn’t turn the world gay, it ain’t a disease. I’ve been around many that are gay and in fact some of my friends are, and guess what I’m still obsessed with women! Plus, they also never tried to turn me gay. I say if you want the gay community to shut up about it, then give them what they want. Doesn’t affect anyones daily life. You don’t have to hear them bitch, and they will get their rights, then it’s all good.

94

[quote]jayski wrote:
pat wrote:
forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
wah…Maybe you should just get over it. It has been put to the people of these here States United and shot down in flames in even to most liberal of places.

You mean places like Massachusetts and Connecticut, not to mention the 10 other states that allow civil unions/domestic partnerships?

Oh, you mean where the courts have legislated from the bench? Because gay marriage lost hard core every place it has been put to a public vote.

And, why do you just move their and shut the hell up about it…It was put on ballots and it lost everywhere. Go to where you can get married and quit whining that people don’t want to bend to your whims.

I still don’t understand why it’s such a big deal to many that gays shouldn’t marry. It doesn’t turn the world gay, it ain’t a disease. I’ve been around many that are gay and in fact some of my friends are, and guess what I’m still obsessed with women! Plus, they also never tried to turn me gay. I say if you want the gay community to shut up about it, then give them what they want. Doesn’t affect anyones daily life. You don’t have to hear them bitch, and they will get their rights, then it’s all good.[/quote]

That’s not true. If legalized it effects what is acceptable curriculum in schools. The reading of gay fairy tales to kindergarteners, the addition of gay sexual education, and such.

95

[quote]forlife wrote:
Again, because there are over 1,000 benefits available from federally-recognized marriage that are currently denied to gay couples.
[/quote]
Why not focus on fixing this and providing these benefits for those that have a civil union? Wouldn’t that be much less controversial?

[quote]
On marriage being a civil right, the California supreme court ruled:

In view of the substance and significance of the fundamental constitutional right to form a family relationship, the California Constitution properly must be interpreted to guarantee this basic civil right to all Californians, whether gay or heterosexual, and to same-sex couples as well as to opposite-sex couples.[/quote]

I don’t see the word marriage anywhere in there. You can form a familiy relationship.

96

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
jayski wrote:
pat wrote:
forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
wah…Maybe you should just get over it. It has been put to the people of these here States United and shot down in flames in even to most liberal of places.

You mean places like Massachusetts and Connecticut, not to mention the 10 other states that allow civil unions/domestic partnerships?

Oh, you mean where the courts have legislated from the bench? Because gay marriage lost hard core every place it has been put to a public vote.

And, why do you just move their and shut the hell up about it…It was put on ballots and it lost everywhere. Go to where you can get married and quit whining that people don’t want to bend to your whims.

I still don’t understand why it’s such a big deal to many that gays shouldn’t marry. It doesn’t turn the world gay, it ain’t a disease. I’ve been around many that are gay and in fact some of my friends are, and guess what I’m still obsessed with women! Plus, they also never tried to turn me gay. I say if you want the gay community to shut up about it, then give them what they want. Doesn’t affect anyones daily life. You don’t have to hear them bitch, and they will get their rights, then it’s all good.

That’s not true. If legalized it effects what is acceptable curriculum in schools. The reading of gay fairy tales to kindergarteners, the addition of gay sexual education, and such.[/quote]

I doubt it’ll go that far, I remember years ago during my sex ed class in high school, gay sex was mentioned among all the topics you can think but it wasn’t dwelled on. Plus, I have no memories of being taught any marriage values in school, seeing as that’s more of a parent and family thing. But still, if they want to be married, great, let them, but just like many other things, it doesn’t need to be part of a school curriculum, with the exception as possibly a university class where you’d have the choice to study gay education.

97

[quote]Sloth wrote:
As far as Christians are concerned, 1 man and 1 one wife is a traditional marriage. As, I’ve posted above. As far as the US is concerned, 1 man and 1 woman. We aren’t talking about the traditions of some far off place.[/quote]

Christians don’t believe in the bible or recognize that God actually commanded polygamy in the old testament?

98

[quote]pat wrote:
Oh, you mean where the courts have legislated from the bench? Because gay marriage lost hard core every place it has been put to a public vote. [/quote]

It’s a good thing the supreme court “legislated from the bench” when it came to equal civil rights for women and racial minorities. People are often prejudiced, which is why the court has the right and responsibility to determine what constitutes equal protection under the law.

99

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If I were one day to declare myself gay, my legal abilities and rights DO NOT CHANGE. I remain subject to the exact same laws applied exactly the same way regardless. No legal judgments or the application of laws changed based on a person’s sexuality. There are no differences in punishment or benefit that are legally decided based in any part based on a person’s sexuality.[/quote]

You’re forgetting the little detail about not being able to marry the person you love if you are gay.

You’re back to arguing equal treatment only on the basis of genetics rather than choice.

In any case, I have news for you. There are genetic markers for homosexuality, so by your own admission it is the same struggle.

You totally missed the point, which was that people have the legal right to choose their form of worship. What if it was illegal to be Christian in this country?

100

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
That’s not true. If legalized it effects what is acceptable curriculum in schools. The reading of gay fairy tales to kindergarteners, the addition of gay sexual education, and such.[/quote]

Sex education in schools is a totally different issue. Why not support gay marriage and remove sex education from schools entirely?