'Traditional Marriage'

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
301

I don’t think you understand where I am coming from. The reason my testimony of the truth is unshaken by attempts to attack the church leadership, or by someone telling me my experiences were not “real” is, that my experiences are not based on some leader telling me what I should and should not except as truth.

My experiences are real. I will share just one with you because it is an illustration of what I am talking about. I was in the USMC for a while. One night while out on patrol I was driving one of our vehicles. This was in the early 90s so the night vision devices were really not that good. Most of us learned that by not focusing and keeping your eyes moving you could see better than by using the goggles. So, I was on patrol, I had a distinct feeling that I should stop the vehicle. I kept driving. Then I heard a voice tell me to stop. I looked around at those in my vehicle to see who told me to stop. No one was talking to me. I kept driving, then I heard the voice again, even louder, it was as if it were screaming in my ear. But, it was not a loud voice, it was not a frantic voice, it brought comfort and warmth to my soul. It was as if some one had enveloped in a peaceful bliss. So, I stopped the vehicle. The SSG next to me asked why I stopped, I told him I just felt that we needed to stop. He got out and walked about ten feet in front of the vehicle and just stood there looking out. I got out and walked to where he was standing. We both just stood there and looked out at the 100 foot drop that we were about ten feet away from driving over.

Now, some may just shrug this off as an intuition or some sort of freak thing that happened. I heard the voice and I knew who and what it was. This has happened to me on more than one occasion. I spent some time over in Iraq, and had many experiences over there that proved to me that God knows who I am. When I say I know that Jesus Christ lives and that he knows who I am, it is not because some church leader told what it would feel like, and then I did nothing to prepare myself to feel of the spirit. I did the things the Lord asks us to do to prepare to feel the spirit. I have felt the spirit. I know what it feels like, I know what the voice of the Holy Ghost sounds like. It is exactly how Nephi describes it in the Book of Mormon, it is a still small voice, which brings about the sweetest joy. It is just indescribable.

So, when you invite me to go down the “Rabbit Hole” I don’t mind. But, are you willing to reach up and grab my hand and allow me to help you up out of the Rabbit Hole? You have been there too long.

Your William Gardener may be right about those members who never take seriously Moroni’s challenge. If you pray with a sincere heart, with REAL intent, the truth will be manifested unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost, and by the power of the Holy Ghost, you may know the truth of all things.

I’ve said it before, I’m not perfect, I don’t know where I will end up in the grand scheme of things, all I can do is what the Lord asks of me and have faith that if I do those things, Knowing what I know, I will spend the rest of eternity with my wife and family.

302

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
I’ve read your nonsense on this board for quite a while now. I wonder why anyone with so little talent, at least in writing logical coherent posts, feels so superior to others who in the real world are not only more intelligent but can buy and sell you.[/quote]

I accept that others are vastly more intelligent and successful than me. I just feel superior to you.

Had you actually learnt to read in primary school, you’d have realized I’m saying that TB23 is articulate, intelligent and reasonable. You, however, fall far short of such a standard. And I doubt he’s the type to enjoy you trying to kiss his ass.

That must be the most laughable thing I’ve heard this year. But I expect you’ll say something to top that soon enough.

You think I’m a liberal? So you actually haven’t read ANY of my posts then. I’m not as stupid as you and don’t categorize myself into the whole “liberal” and “conservative” group. I think the pot is calling the kettle black.

[quote]Ho hum… Don’t get me wrong that’s your right, but I think you should think twice before denigrating others. You’ve never shown me anything on this board that I would consider any sort of well thought out solid argument.

In short you simply take up bandwidth.[/quote]

Yes, the pot IS calling the kettle black. You hide behind rainjack, PRCal, and tb23 constantly, trying to agree with them and score brownie points. Every time you agree with these posters, I cringe because they have to be associated with YOU. Get back to me when you can actually think for yourself instead of doing the very things you accuse me of.

You’re hopelessly pathetic, and you drag down others with posts you undoubtedly think are witty and informative, even when they are nothing but bigoted, pathetic and weak arguments.

Have a nice day.

304

[quote]Bigd1970 wrote:
I have felt the spirit. I know what it feels like, I know what the voice of the Holy Ghost sounds like. It is exactly how Nephi describes it in the Book of Mormon, it is a still small voice, which brings about the sweetest joy. It is just indescribable.
[/quote]

I wasn’t referring to following what your leaders tell you. I was talking about receiving a powerful, personal witness of the truthfulness of the LDS church.

It may be hard for you to understand this, but I know exactly what you’re talking about. I’ve been there. I had many “spiritual experiences” on my mission where I “heard a voice” telling me things I couldn’t otherwise have known.

I have been filled with joy, gratitude, peace, and love as I prayed about the Book of Mormon and asked for a witness of its truthfulness. I remember having that same indescribably poignant confirmation when I showed the First Vision to an investigator as a missionary, and telling myself as we were riding away on our bicycles, "It is enough…

I KNOW this is the Lord’s church and have no need for further confirmation." I had been born again, of the Spirit, and was unshakeable in my testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel.

But you see, my experience wasn’t unique. I told myself it was at the time, and believed that only Mormons had such powerful spiritual witnesses of their faith. Then I read William James’ The Varieties of Religious Experience, which described people of all faiths having similar powerful, undeniable experiences which confirmed their own particular beliefs.

I met some of these people on my mission, and was unable to reconcile it in my mind, except by telling myself that it must have been a “false spirit” bearing witness to them.

As Steve Lowther puts it:

[quote]In my own awakening from apologist to critic, one of the epiphanies I had was about trusting the “Whisperings of the Spirit”. Missionaries encourage investigators to employ this technique to find out the truth.

What are these whisperings? As a new convert, I had remarkable, exhilarating experiences after long, fervent prayer. I set aside my doubt as best I could and struggled for that special witness. I got it in no small measure.

But as I was uncovering for myself one embarrassing (for the Church) morally depraved event after another straight out of the Church’s own publications, I asked myself how this huge number of non-faith promoting events could be reconciled with my testimony.

After all I worked long and hard, and invested a great deal of mental and emotional energy into it.

After asking myself if Mormons could be practice self-deception, I could only answer that, yes indeed it has happened innumerable times, repeatedly with members of the human race. After all, those religionists who disagreed with Mormons were proof of it, at least to Mormons.

Now the emotional products of a testimony are very satisfying. It never occurred to me that there could be deception involved. After all, one knew it was the truth because of the nature of the experience.

When asked how I knew, my reply was the familiar “You won’t understand unless you have had it happen to you.” It simply was an experience that felt entirely right!

Yet, in the end I had to confront that these religious emotions were just that – emotions. If God provided a unique gift to the human soul, it couldn’t be the gift of emotions.

Many members of the animal kingdom experienced most of the range of emotions I have felt over the years. So what set humans apart from the rest of the animal kingdom?

Intelligent reasoning. If God gave us anything to discern truth, it was what was learned thru the ideal of uncorrupted reasoning. Mormons are notoriously easy to dupe. They are by nature trusting and unsuspecting, and will develop ‘testimonies’ quite easily about things, whether it is multi-level marketing schemes, or ‘promising’ investments. So why should their religious perceptions be any different? Why should mine?

If a person were to apply careful observations, investigation and logic to these schemes, there would be little or no deception ultimately. But it takes courage to peer into the eyes of our sacred cows. It is not easy to admit to the fallacy of that which we have held sacred. Ironically it takes humility, the very principle taught as necessary for acquiring a religious testimony.

But with reasoning, you do not start off exercising enough faith to put doubts out of your mind. You do not preprogram yourself to suppress thinking about the contradictions that always make their appearance. You do not have to have blind obedience to the faith of someone else. In short you are not required to put your trust in the arm of flesh.[/quote]

I don’t doubt there are Christian “believers” from other churches reading this thread and shaking their heads at the duplicity of the Mormon church, and at the gullibility of Mormons in claiming to have received divine confirmation of their beliefs. It is so easy to see it in others, and so very difficult to see it in yourself.

As I said earlier, I don’t blame you for believing what makes sense to you and wish you the best regardless of how far you choose to take the pursuit of truth.

305

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Well, since we all know what this is REALLY about, I’ll make it simple. Homosexuality is a grave sin in both the Old and New Testament. Before and after Christ’s birth, death, and resurrection.

Before the fulfilled law, and after. And marriage itself is mentioned as only occuring between man and wife. And since you’re not here to champion polygamy, but homosexual marriage, we all know that ultimately that’s what this all about.[/quote]

Hey, at least we’re finally getting some honesty about why people are opposed to homosexuality. Setting aside all the intellectual rationalization, homophobia is nearly always due to religious beliefs and/or the gut belief that gay sex is icky.

Divorce is considered a grave sin in the new testament, yet I don’t see you trying to pass laws discriminating against divorcees.

306

I see what you are saying, and this probably more than anything else is why I believe so much in the church. Because the church does not teach blind obedience. Many of the church members are blindly obedient though. The church has not cornered the market on blind obedience though.

I recognize there are others who have had great spiritual experiences who are not members of the church. Mormons have not cornered the market here either. I realize that to most Christians, a Spiritual Experience is just that to them. Does it make it anymore less real because they are not Mormon?

The answer is clearly no. So, we come back to what sets the Mormons apart from other Christians? It would be modern day revelation, that we believe there is a Prophet on the Earth today that leads and guides God’s Church here and now.

We could go into the six discussions here but I think we both know them well enough to dispense with the formality.

In short I can see where members are duped because they fail to actually go and get that testimony that you said you once had, and I think you still have. I can see that you were probably hurt by well intending Church leaders who probably told you one thing and you ended up doing something completely different. I don’t know why you are the way you are, I have not lived your life.

I can say this, and you already know it. We will be judged based upon the knowledge we obtain here in this life. God gives us our weaknesses to become our strengths. You struggle with your demons, I struggle with mine. Is either one of us right or wrong? I know what the scriptures tell me.

So, I choose to live my life one way, is it my place to tell you how to live yours? Not anymore than you can tell me how I should live mine.

We have to be able to compromise and adjust. I spent 13 years in the Military and the last 15 in Law Enforcement, so, I see life from a little bit different perspective than most Mormons. I have been down the Rabbit Hole, and back up. I like better where I am now.

307

I’m not talking about blind obedience at all. I’m referring to the personal, sincere quest for truth discussed in Moroni 10:3-5, Alma 32, etc. I took Moroni up on his promise, and received the deep spiritual confirmation I sought. I planted Alma’s seed, and found it to be good.

I was born of the spirit as discussed in Alma 5. I experienced a mighty change in my heart, and was spiritually born of God. I knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that the LDS church was the only true and living church upon the face of the earth with which the Lord was well pleased.

However, later in my life I realized that millions of people from other faiths have experienced the same deeply poignant confirmation of their particular beliefs.

Logically, it is impossible for all of us to be right, when there are such fundamental contradictions in our spiritual beliefs. If I receive a powerful spiritual witness that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two separate beings, and a Catholic receives a powerful spiritual witness that they are the same being, not just in purpose, but in body, parts, and passions, who is right?

The only logical conclusion is that humans are flawed when it comes to determining spiritual truth. The depth, poignancy, and power of our spiritual witness may be very real, but it does not correlate with objective reality.

In all sincerity, I couldn’t return to believing in the LDS church even if I wanted to do so. It’s like hatching from an egg and trying to reassemble all the pieces. If you read my website, you will understand why. If you choose not to do so, I don’t blame you.

Neo probably would have been happier by staying inside the Matrix, but he valued truth more than illusion, no matter what that might mean for his happiness.

It is hard giving up the idea that you are a son of God with a divine purpose and destiny. It is hard accepting the possibility that you may not be with your loved ones after you die. It is hard stepping away from black and white answers, and learning to become comfortable with ambiguity and the unknown.

I don’t ask anyone to do so. I did because the truth is more important to me than anything else. It really does set you free.

308

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Well, since we all know what this is REALLY about, I’ll make it simple. Homosexuality is a grave sin in both the Old and New Testament. Before and after Christ’s birth, death, and resurrection.

Before the fulfilled law, and after. And marriage itself is mentioned as only occuring between man and wife. And since you’re not here to champion polygamy, but homosexual marriage, we all know that ultimately that’s what this all about.

Hey, at least we’re finally getting some honesty about why people are opposed to homosexuality. Setting aside all the intellectual rationalization, homophobia is nearly always due to religious beliefs and/or the gut belief that gay sex is icky.

Divorce is considered a grave sin in the new testament, yet I don’t see you trying to pass laws discriminating against divorcees.[/quote]

What? Where is this “finally” crap coming from? I’m noticing a trend where you construct your opponent and his arguements out of whole cloth, saying something in the form of “at least we’re finally getting some honesty…”

Yes, I’m opposed to homosexuality because of my faith (when the heck have I pretended otherwise?). AND because it’s always a fruitless model for state recognized marriage (which is what this is all about, as usual).

It is the latter secular reasoning that shapes my beliefs regarding public policy. That is, I support incentivizing the smallest biological unit designed to naturally produce and raise it’s offspring in an intact home. That to me is worth extra government intervention, which is what state recognzied and enforced benefits are.

Finally, honesty? When in the world have I not represented both my religious beliefs and my secular public policy beliefs? And no, they don’t always match up.

Stop ignoring and lying your way through arguements.

309

[quote]forlife wrote:
It is hard stepping away from black and white answers, and learning to become comfortable with ambiguity and the unknown.
[/quote]

What ambiguity and unknown? You’re an atheist. You believe you’ll cease to exist.

310

I was referring to the smokescreen behind which the majority of people on your side of the argument hides. If you have always admitted that your religious faith is the reason for your homophobia, then I applaud your honesty, if not your good judgment.

Speaking of ignoring arguments, what about my point about divorce being a major sin per the new testament? Should divorcees be discriminated against in civil law?

311

[quote]Sloth wrote:
What ambiguity and unknown? You’re an atheist. You believe you’ll cease to exist.[/quote]

Do you not find it just a touch ironic that you lambasted me for misquoting you, then turn around in literally the next post to misquote me?

312

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
What ambiguity and unknown? You’re an atheist. You believe you’ll cease to exist.

Do you not find it just a touch ironic that you lambasted me for misquoting you, then turn around in literally the next post to misquote me?[/quote]

What, I didn’t lambast you for a misquote, I lambasted you for pretending that only now you were hearing people’s arguements. YOU’RE the one wanting religious arguements concerning homosexual marriage. A number of us have made SECULAR arguements in other threads (of yours, of course) in opposition to government recognized gay marriage. What is wrong with you man?

And how did I misquote you, when I used the quote function?

313

[quote]forlife wrote:
It is hard giving up the idea that you are a son of God with a divine purpose and destiny. It is hard accepting the possibility that you may not be with your loved ones after you die. It is hard stepping away from black and white answers, and learning to become comfortable with ambiguity and the unknown.

[/quote]

If you mean it’s out of context, the sentence is from this paragraph, which concerns the eternal soul and what transpires after death. You’re an atheist. No ambiguity there. As your vision fades and your last breath rattles out, you’ll believe you’ll never have another thought or feel another emotion. You believe you’ll cease to exist. What’s mysterious or ambiguous about that?

314

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A number of us have made SECULAR arguements in other threads (of yours, of course) in opposition to government recognized gay marriage. [/quote]

My point was that your so-called secular arguments derive from your religious beliefs, whether or not you realize or acknowledge it. Just look at the word “designed” in your latest post regarding why you think marriage should be civilly restricted to one man and one woman, and ask yourself where that core belief comes from.

You didn’t use the quote function, you said that I was an atheist despite the numerous times I’ve said I am an agnostic.

315

[quote]forlife wrote:
Just look at the word “designed” in your latest post regarding why you think marriage should be civilly restricted to one man and one woman, and ask yourself where that core belief comes from.

[/quote]

Where does it come from? You know where babies come from, right? The birds and the bees? Do you have to be spoon fed everything?

316

For an agnostic, you sure use absolute phrases. Such as, fairy tales.

317

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Where does it come from? You know where babies come from, right? The birds and the bees? Do you have to be spoon fed everything? [/quote]

The word “designed” implies an intelligent, guiding force with a purpose that we are morally obligated to follow.

If you’re only talking about nature, I would like to think we are more than common animals, with the capacity for a higher morality. If gays can provide loving, secure homes for unwanted children, it seems to me a moral obligation to allow them to do so.

318

[quote]Sloth wrote:
For an agnostic, you sure use absolute phrases. Such as, fairy tales.[/quote]

Fairy tales are stories that haven’t been substantiated by facts.

And let’s be honest. You dismiss the fairy tales of other religions as just that, while selectively considering only your own fairy tales to be true.

319

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Where does it come from? You know where babies come from, right? The birds and the bees? Do you have to be spoon fed everything?

The word “designed” implies an intelligent, guiding force with a purpose that we are morally obligated to follow.

If you’re only talking about nature, I would like to think we are more than common animals, with the capacity for a higher morality. If gays can provide loving, secure homes for unwanted children, it seems to me a moral obligation to allow them to do so.[/quote]

I am talking about nature. Feel free to substitue “shaped through evolution.” I had/have no emotional attachment to the wording.

320

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
For an agnostic, you sure use absolute phrases. Such as, fairy tales.

Fairy tales are stories that haven’t been substantiated by facts.

And let’s be honest. You dismiss the fairy tales of other religions as just that, while selectively considering only your own fairy tales to be true.[/quote]

So then life after death to you, is a fairy tale. Nothingness envelopes your senses, you let loose your death rattle, and cease to be. There can be nothing ambigious or mysterious about it. My point still stands.