'Traditional Marriage'

[quote]forlife wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Sure you did forliar…You were a committed male homo and then decided to marry a woman. Makes perfect sense to me.

That’s what happens when religion fucks up your life.

The point is that I was always honest and faithful with my wife. Our decision to divorce was mutual, because we both realized that being in a mixed orientation made no sense, despite what our church leaders told us.[/quote]

Religion made me do it.

You sound like the guys that went on crusades. You apparently married a woman you didn’t love (at least for a wife). Take responsibility for your own action.

[quote]forlife wrote:
Because God knows that getting your cigarette fix is more important than sharing your life with someone you love.[/quote]

Is there a tax you have to pay to be around the one you love?

Do you have to leave restaurants to be with the one you love?

Are there entire cities where it’s illegal to be in a taxi with the one you love?

Or do they throw you a parade once a year where you can march down the street doing pretty much anything you want (except smoke) with the one you love?

Get off your cross.

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Certainly, from some aspects being unmarried is preferable.[/quote]

Actually, what Paul said was that celibacy is the highest standard, not that “some aspects of being unmarried are preferable”.

If celibacy is the highest standard, clearly Paul had a different view of marriage than you do. He saw it as a lower institution for people that aren’t willing to live the higher standard, because “it is better to marry than to burn”.

So it is a sin for women to be bald? Does your wife ever speak in church?

As I’ve said elsewhere, I think Paul disapproved of homosexuality in general. However, some Christians believe that Paul was referring to promiscuity and prostitution, which were prominent in his day, and wasn’t addressing same sex long term monogamous relationships.

Irrelevant, because I don’t believe Paul was any more “inspired” than George W. Bush.

My point in bringing him up is to point out the cherry picking you fundamentalists are fond of, by quoting scriptures that don’t apply to you (like the one you cited about homosexuality) while turning a blind eye to scriptures that do apply, but you wish didn’t (like Jesus forbidding divorce, women speaking in church and having their heads covered, etc).

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Sodomy should be outlawed. Just like these others, even if it is between consenting adults. It degrades society as a whole.[/b][/quote]

Fortunately, the U.S. Supreme Court disagrees with you.

[quote]entheogens wrote:
The Bible was written by men trying to come to terms with the mystery of life and that we need to live in that mystery instead of trying to project our own beliefs, fears, prejudices and worldviews on a God, in the hope that we can live in certainty. People with certainty are always DANGEROUS. All fundamentalists, be they Christian, Jewish or Muslim are always CERTAIN of their beliefs and have no doubt.

If you want to hate Gays, so be it, but don’t use God as a support to justify your hate. [/quote]

I couldn’t agree more. People are so quick to dismiss the religious beliefs of others, insisting that their particular brand is “the truth”. The danger of certainty is that it can be used to justify any atrocity. After all, if “God” is on your side, what else matters?

[quote]entheogens wrote:

Marriage is an institution and like all institutions it evolves. If you really want to look at “traditional marriage” in the West then you will realize for a great part of its history, marriage has not been about “love” it has been about passing on property to heirs.[/quote]

Yes, marriage has evolved - and take a hard look at how. Marriage has been whittled down via our “progressive” path to exclude competing forms, such as polygamy.

We hear plenty that marriage has evolved, but never an honest assessment about what the evolution means - our evolution via “progress” has abandoned polygamy as a viable form of marriage. What does that mean? This “evolution” has mean rejecting certain forms of marriage along the way, not opening up ever more versions of it.

Why does it matter? If you follow the “progressive evolution” angle, progressive society has rejected polygamy, which by all rights, is entitled to all of the exact same arguments gay marriage tries to promote for itself - polygamists can be free, consenting adults in love, they could adopt unwanted children, etc.

Plus, polygamy actually engages in some of the natural acvitity that marriage is supposed to govern - polygamous relationships typically produce children. It is a better argument than that for gay marriage.

And yet. Despite the fact that polygamy enjoys every single argument that gay marriage does, it has been rejected as an act of progress.

It once existed, and despite having all the same arguments that we see gay marriage advocates put forth as reasons to invent gay marriage, Progress has eliminated polygamy as a viable form of marriage.

So, a “progressive” approach is one that will get you nowhere - Progress said “nope” to an institution that was just as valid as gay marriage in terms of being “consenting adults loving one another” or “providing homes for unwanted kids.”

So, there is nothing “progressive” about creating gay marriage on those grounds when that couldn’t save polygamy from being eliminated on our evolutionary path - Progress is clearly measured some other way, otherwise, polygamy would still be around.

Further, if Progress means nothing more than validating alternative forms of marriage on the basis of “consenting adults loving one another”, then we have had no such “evolution” in marriage, since while we were evolving, we rejected forms of marriage that qualified under those criteria.

That can only be described as “regressive”, and marriage, in rejecting polygamy, has taken a step backward rather than a step forward.

I notice you forgot to add “secular” in your list of fundamentalists - which is a shame, because they might be the worst kind: they aren’t honest enough to admit their fundamentalism nor their closed-mindedness.

Perhaps religious fundamentalists are a headache, but hey, at least they are honest about their approach. Charlatans like Forlife are just as CERTAIN, just as ideological, and just as closed-minded as their religious counterparts, but refuse to admit it.

And these Secular Fundies pretend to use Reason while making a shambles of it in the same way many fundamentalists make a mockery of the very religion they are purporting to defend.

It’s pretty awful - but getting them to admit it is about as likely as getting someone to admit to their actual bench press numbers on the internet.

This I agree with - God doesn’t support hate.

But then, refusing to create gay marriage as a public institution is not an act of hate, so it is largely a different discussion.

[quote]300andabove wrote:
forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
So propensity and action are two independent things? Propensity doesn’t preclude choice and reason? Hmmm… interesting…

Brilliant.

If the action doesn’t hurt anyone, why would you prohibit it?

Pedophilia is inherently damaging. Homosexuality is not.

Ah but you see Homosexuality IS damaging, your going against Nature !

Imagine if all the species in the world suddenly became gay it would mean THE END OF EVERY RACE…

Now can you SEE why homosexuality is NOT a good thing ?

We kind of need children, just for the continuance of the human race but no big deal…[/quote]

Fail. You clearly don’t understand the link between society and genetics.

[quote]Scrotus wrote:
Forlife, you are a Jesus hating anti-dentite. [/quote]

We’ve already established that Jesus is a cool dude who you’d want to smoke a blunt with.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Yes, marriage has evolved - and take a hard look at how. [/quote]

It’s refreshing to see some honesty on this point from the other side.

It’s clear that marriage has evolved, rather than being the unchanging 5,000 year-old institution that Rick Warren touted in his speech.

Whether or not you believe the evolution of marriage is a good or bad thing is a different debate, but there is no question that marriage has changed over time.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
You blame religion for doing what? [/quote]

I blame religion for telling a gay man to marry a woman, because it was God’s will that we do so. My church leaders were wrong, and a lot of unhappiness could have been avoided had we not listened to them.

If you knew that I was 100% honest and faithful to my wife during our 9 years together, would that affect in any way your view of gays?

[quote]forlife wrote:

It’s refreshing to see some honesty on this point from the other side. [/quote]

In some ways it has changed, in other ways it hasn’t. That marriage exists primarily to order the conduct of producing children and governing their raising has not changed, as an example.

Marriage retains its roots, even as it has matured into something that doesn’t permit polygamy or any other alternative arrangement.

[quote]forlife wrote:
If you knew that I was 100% honest and faithful to my wife during our 9 years together, would that affect in any way your view of gays?[/quote]

Consider who you’re asking this question to. You’re not dealing with someone intellectual and reasonable like TB23, you’re asking a bigoted arrogant little toerag like Mick and expecting a serious answer?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Marriage retains its roots, even as it has matured into something that doesn’t permit polygamy or any other alternative arrangement.[/quote]

I think that’s essentially true, although it does contradict Rick Warren’s contention that marriage between one man and one woman is the 5,000 year old unchanging universal standard.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Wrong, if you read the Bible as many times as you say you did (another lie)[/quote]

How would you know how many times I’ve read the bible? Just because I’ve read it numerous times doesn’t mean I believe it to be anything other than man made.

You’re assuming facts not in evidence (e.g., “god” exists, the bible is god’s unfailing word, and following god’s unfailing word will lead to blessings).

What you should have said was that it is the will of religious leaders that you serve their fairy tale idea of “god”, while offering snake oil promises that don’t hold up.

Are you saying that you can’t remain celibate? Who is the sex crazed one here?

Also, thanks for revealing Rick Warren’s standard for what it is: second rate at best according to Christian doctrine.

I love how you know so much about my life. I married a woman because of my religious belief that I should do so. Why the hell do you think I would have chosen to be with a woman, had it not been for my misconception that homosexuality was wrong?

That’s not what I asked. It’s revealing that you have such a distorted view of gays that you feel compelled to universally discredit their honesty and fidelity in relationships, in order to justify your homophobia toward them. You can’t stand the thought that I was actually honest and faithful to my wife for the 9 years we were together. It doesn’t synch up with your stereotypes.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Consider who you’re asking this question to. You’re not dealing with someone intellectual and reasonable like TB23, you’re asking a bigoted arrogant little toerag like Mick and expecting a serious answer?[/quote]

I agree, and don’t have any illusion of making any difference with people like Mick. I just find it entertaining.

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Don’t get me wrong that’s your right, but I think you should think twice before denigrating others.
[/quote]

LOL. Too rich, the irony.